Ask HN: I built it, "they" didn't come...
My projects are mostly based on features that are missing or misimplemented in the existing products. Some of the finished projects gone live, tried to sell some, some are rotting in the attic.
I lack visual design skills, but yet trying to do my best to provide a usable UI for the products. One of my motives in building a product against my lack of visual skills is knowing that "they started as crap too". For example reddit was just a very simple listing full with porn links, stumbleupon was just a "what is this" page for a few years, twitter was and still is damn slow, broken and overbloated and there are many more.. Other than reddit, others was most probably the first at doing what they do. There were no similar products, but they got it up and running and people easily adopted.
When i ask about feedbacks about my products, mostly i get "i didn't understand which problem you are solving". I even deployed a localized copy of cnprog as a forum on women's issues, to see if it was me doing it wrong in designing. I got the following feedback several times: "it's too complicated, there's no order, no title in threads, other forums(phpbb style) are better ". WTF? These people are on facebook 24/7, uploading gazillions of photos, messaging their friends each second. They know what tagging is, and still a stackoverflow clone is too complicated?
Anyway, what i wonder is, what happened to people that got it the first time when they saw reddit, stumbleupon and said "yeah i'll use it". Were internet users back in late 90's , ealy 2000's much more sophisticated people? What has changed since then, and people became website gourmets to say that "you should tell what this site is about on the first page. i don't understand that your site is a listing site by just looking at the listing on the goddamn first page. that's why i decided that i won't use it at the very first second i stumbled onto your site"? Sigh..
Have "they" gone forever, and will never come back again?
Edit: Thanks for all the fantastic comments, i didn't expect to get many insightful ideas and suggestions. There are some points i guess i need to make myself clear:
- WTF -> these people can use the applications i can not even cope with, how can they find a 2-3 step forum complex ? details: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1838852
- I've tried opening jobs on amazon, asking communities for feedbacks, paying google ads, using stumbleupon ads, posting to startup listings. lastly using feedbackroulette :) by the way fr is just great.
- details about a few of the stuff i've done http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1838805
[+] [-] patio11|15 years ago|reply
This is your first problem. First, features do not sell software. If there were a Ten Commandments of customer acquisition in the Internet age that would be #2 right after "Google is your god, you shall have no others." People use software and use websites because of the benefit that you credibly propose to bring to their lives through use of the software. Ironically, your users are even telling you this, which is fantastic because most of the time they don't have accurate insight into why your site doesn't do it for them. (Incidentally, "I don't know what problem you're solving" really means "I don't know what problem THAT I ACTUALLY HAVE will get better instantly if I sign up for this.")
StackOverflow is incredibly more complicated than Facebook is. You need an accurate mental model of how the game works in order to play it. (Seeing answers is easier, of course.) There is a reason Joel and company try to seed new Stack Overflow sites with people who have used one of the pre-existing ones. (That also helps solve the chicken and egg problem, which I suspect your sites are likely suffering from in a severe fashion.)
Early adopters are a quirky bunch. One of their problems is that other people are cooler than they are because those people have technology that they haven't used yet. Another of their problems is that the software they previously liked is now lame because even their mother uses it. Most people do not have these problems.
Talk to people. Find out what their pains, fears, frustrations are. This is not hard -- most people love to talk about what they hate about their life, jobs, etc. Identify problems which are tractable with software. Develop the smallest possible thing that shows the vision of a solution. See if it 'clicks' with people. If it clicks, you know you have a viable idea for a product. If not, development is generally expensive guessing.
P.S. Translation from user into English: "It's too complicated" => "I am insufficiently invested in this to do the work that it looks like it is going to take to extract the unknown amount of value I may get out." There are a number of solutions: simplification, hiding the complexity, easing the users into the complexity, and demonstrating higher value. Your user can play effing bridge, she is clearly capable of understanding complex systems when the spirit moves her.
[+] [-] scrrr|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] loumf|15 years ago|reply
StackOverflow, for example, was sold on features. Look at the early pitches -- it's a reddit+wiki replacement for Experts Exchange. Developers already knew that PHPBB and EE sucked for Q&A. They added voting and editing of old answers, and the demand flowed to them.
[+] [-] jashmenn|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ryandvm|15 years ago|reply
I've always thought that, but Joel Spolsky did an excellent talk where he made the exact opposite point. Skip to 25:00:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/08/19.html
[+] [-] TheSOB88|15 years ago|reply
You're saying early adopters want try to be impressive by using new technology? That one of early adopters' "problems" (that you are trying to provide a solution to) is jealousy?
[+] [-] nadam|15 years ago|reply
I've realized that I can bravely bet against at least some of the trends. Based on my built things and their failures I started to find out the things which are overrated. In my opinion webapps are overrated, internet consumer market is overrated (or at least too risky for small startups), mobile apps are overrated (kind of a 'trash market' a bit), Javascript is overrated, importance of graphical design is overrated, simplicity and usability is overrated (I mean if you are talented, you can get it right quite easily, but you will never be able to create a business just because of simplicity, usability, etc...)
What things are not overrated?
- 'Build what people pay a lot for'
- At least partially solve really-really painful, fustrating, important problems of not only natural persons but also (mostly) companies.
- The enterprise market is very very important. Big companies are not sexy, but they pay a lot for software if they need software.
- Jack of all trade-ness is overrated. I try to gain experience in at least one or two really hard topics, which few people know.
I will see how it turns out. I never say never though. I try to be flexible; and act upon opportunities. Felxibility is not overrated.
[+] [-] rushabh|15 years ago|reply
I think enterprise is not an easy market to enter. Enterprises are very shy of giving projects to startups and also you need to spend a few years fixing enterprise problems to build good solutions.
Another problem is that companies tend to take a long time and to make a decision hence lot of time and money gets blocked in the sales process...
I am writing this based on experience. I am trying to push the model but not too successful yet!
- Rushabh
ERPNext.com
[+] [-] metageek|15 years ago|reply
http://www.amureprints.com/img1/doonesbury/2001/db010325.gif
"Boring stuff that people actually need?" "Yup. You'd be surprised how lucrative it is."
[+] [-] jnovek|15 years ago|reply
You seemed to have missed the "guilt everyone you know into using your product" phase. I've met very few startup founders that didn't fight tooth-and-nail for every single early user. You have to do whatever it takes to get those users on board. It won't be scalable, but you can worry about scaling user acquisition later, after you've gotten some feedback.
[+] [-] RBr|15 years ago|reply
Nowadays, things need to look great. Some people partner or pay for programmers, you need to partner with or pay for good design. Don't skimp.
Every single chance you have in your product, convey the problem that you are solving, how you are solving it and importantly who you are solving it for. Look at 37Signals as an example. I think they spend 25% - 50% of their time thinking about the message they are conveying throughout their product - not just through their marketing sites.
Never (never, never, never) expect people to use your product or service. Get the word out fast, hard and often. Unless you get lucky (never count on luck), this will cost you money in one form or another. The amount of money you'll need to spend directly relates to the competition in the niche you are operating in.
Listen and pivot. When your customers / users tell you something, listen to them. Don't assume that you're the smartest guy in the world and "know what they want before they want it". Listen and even if you don't believe in it, try moving in the direction that your customers / users want. If income increases, pivot your business or entire model in that direction.
Never (ever) get married to an idea and remember that business is about making money.
Don't judge yourself against others. Every business, every person, every circumstance is unique. Constantly review your product or service but evaluate it against your own metrics. Don't ignore what others are doing, but if your product is successful earning $25k per year, it is successful.
Keep your chin up and do not give up. It sounds cliche, but the worst mistake someone can make is to give in to the part of themselves that drags them down. If something isn't working, change it and be happy, excited and motivated to make yet another change in a long line of changes.
[+] [-] Toucan|15 years ago|reply
It's more than adding features to a product.
I suspect Facebook is easy to use because people can see the benefit in learning how to use it. They can see how tagging an image is a cool thing, so they'll make the effort. If they can't immediately see how upvoting a question is a cool thing, they won't bother to understand how to use it.
[+] [-] kilian|15 years ago|reply
Obviously you can get quality feedback. Iterate on that. If it's not clear what problem you are solving, you just tell them. There's no shame in writing "This is a listings page, add a listing HERE" in 80px black bold Arial on top of the page, if it makes people use it ;)
As long as people can find you on search engines, they will come. But from there on, you have to guide them to use your service instead of expecting them to do all the work.
[+] [-] terryjsmith|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dpapathanasiou|15 years ago|reply
Actually, that's not too far off from a suggestion Paul Graham made at the first Startup School a few years ago, in his "Ideas for Startups" speech (http://paulgraham.com/ideas.html):
One way to make something people want is to look at stuff people use now that's broken.
There's a big difference, though, between missing or misimplemented and broken.
If it's misimplemented, but basically does what I need it to do, then I'm not as open to an alternative.
If it's broken, then I'll seek out another product or a third-party plugin.
[+] [-] colinplamondon|15 years ago|reply
Stackoverflow is targeted at geeks- if you're cloning their design, you need to clone the target audience as well. .net development != women's issues.
[+] [-] hinoglu|15 years ago|reply
what i mean by wtf is, these people can do and interact with applications that i can not keep up with, and still find my applications, or the applications that i find interesting "to be complicated".
[+] [-] wisty|15 years ago|reply
Oh, and remember, there are lots of people who don't even know what a URL is. SO worked because lots of JoS / Coding horror readers trusted it enough. They also know what tagging is - most of your readers are more familiar with phpbb style indexes. Nobody looks at the tag cloud unless they have already know what they are looking for.
[+] [-] bwooceli|15 years ago|reply
Think about the products that "go viral". I think there is an increasing trend for these to have roots in the real world. Twitter didn't succeed until real people in the real world met in a real bar at a real conference and really talked about it. I didn't start using it until a real person I knew was talking to me at a real place after going to SXSW. Same story on Facebook. Real people in my real world had a real conversation with me about it.
My advice - make your product opaque. I know it's 2010, but your product needs to be "real" for "them". Find some target end users, get them using it, and enable them to broadcast their use/enjoyment/etc.
[+] [-] michael_dorfman|15 years ago|reply
Why don't you list a few here, and maybe we can help you refine your pitch.
[+] [-] hinoglu|15 years ago|reply
one i'm lately struggling with is visitrs.com, i've posted it a few times before, did not get much response, ones i get was helpful though.It has started as a pluggible chat system which allowed visitors of any website to chat with eachother. It would provide interaction between visitors, would create a community around the website, would help people discuss or suggest products, articles on the website boosting content awareness of the website. for example on ebay, one could have easily ask opinions of other visitors about a product to be bought.. anyway did not gain attention, so i changed it into a stumbleupon+delicious+live chat system. still truggling with it.
one was a real time sql multiplier proxy. problems with production servers back then 2006-2008 was - and most probably still is- backups, cloning on the fly, active-active clustering etc. one would have to stop the working system to backup or clone the datas in sql servers, and active-active clustering were painful or too expensive. I made a working demo based on postgresql + spread real time mesaging toolkit, which was acting like a proxy between sql servers and web applications. when a web application made a query, it was multiplied and sent to all servers in exact same order, which would allow real time cloning + backing up + active-active clustering in once. Though demo was sufficient for simple ops, it needed transaction system implemented, which was really not a big deal. Couldn't sell it. the companies that were paying zillons to big players, or spending thousands of man/day operations did not get what i was solving.
another one that is still on production line is a job listing system, which will get rid of "send cv - wait for response" and "read zillions of cvs, call hundreds of persons just to hire 1" problems. it's a social marketplace for job seekers and hirers simply. i'm not over it yet, but the feedbacks about it is not giving happines yet. addres is test.cbslab.com if anyone interested.
there are many more in the attic, maybe they'll help me when there'll be enough amount of abondoned ones to give up my carreer and become a farmer :)
[+] [-] sjs382|15 years ago|reply
I've been completely unable to gain traction for isshort.com, with 43 visits to the site in about 5 days.
[+] [-] aes|15 years ago|reply
1. The landing page does not tell what the service is for and who is it for.
On the first look, it looks like just another URL shortener - but why would I use it over something like 3.ly or j.mp?
2. I tried to read the explanation but bored out. I don't care what "healthy link shortening" is or what rev="canonical" does. The blog post is longwinded and filled with jargon and terms I don't understand. "Publisher"? Am I a "publisher"? Do I want to be? What is the target audience? Am I in the target audience? It's difficult to find out.
3. I put in "google.com" and out comes INVALID_URI.
4. Not having a "Submit" button feels somehow awkward. I'm not sure what I should do in order to shorten the URL. I eventually discovered that pressing Enter and clicking on the "isn't short" text works, but I'd feel better with a "Submit" button.
[+] [-] colinplamondon|15 years ago|reply
Healthy link shortening is a 'nice to have', not something most folks will go out of their way to us.
[+] [-] jasonkester|15 years ago|reply
If you're going to build something, throw it live, and hope people find it, you're going to need to make sure it's something people will actually be looking for. There are lots of things like that. There are actually only a few that aren't, and unfortunately you've picked the biggest one.
[+] [-] patd|15 years ago|reply
For what I got, you use the shortener of each website (if available) to generate a short URL. Like use youtu.be for YouTube URLs and default to j.mp otherwise.
You claim on the front page to be a different kind of URL shortener and with my first try it seemed to be just as any other URL shortener. You give a long link, it makes a short link.
You should maybe put a concise text on the homepage about what it does and why it's better. Not in a super long blog post that starts by saying when people use URL shorteners
[+] [-] pornel|15 years ago|reply
UI is a bit weird — there is no submit button, no progress for the magic ajaxy thing.
Page that explains what it's about starts with mix of obviousness and downsides.
[+] [-] petervandijck|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] siliconeagle|15 years ago|reply
I'm am not an apple fan, mind you, I am an Android dev who built a podcasting app - and most of the complaints I get are "I can't figure it out" and "why is it so complicated". It is overloaded with features and some appreciate it, but some don't.
The way I think of it, is that life is frustrating at times, and people will go to great lengths to avoid that feeling of frustration. Software might do a lot but if it not quick to use then its pretty well useless. In time gone by, how many man hours been wasted trying to find that elusive checkbox in windows to fix a certain small problem.
Simplicity is the most important thing, people want life to be simple - why can't it be simple !!! That's why apple is making billions.
There is always an element of randomness though. To some people a design (e.g. my podcasting app) will seem logical, but to others it will be a frustrating mess. I am happy to have a set of users who are fairly tech capable. but I do constantly receive a hail of abuse from the less capable who really want to use it, but cant figure it out. Some people actively resent the fact that I have made them feel stupid (Saying exactly "I am not stupid", had that exact phrase about 30 times I think).
Sometimes I think 3 interfaces to a product are necessary, "simple"(only basic stuff), "cool" (medium), and "super"(everything). Different people like different things.
[+] [-] makeramen|15 years ago|reply
>>I've been in the "build->launch->move to next project" loop for some time.
From my experience making a few apps, launching is just the first step, not the last. People will care about products you care about. If you're just building stuff to throw out onto the internetz and hope a few randos latch on... well, that's exactly what you'll get. If you want dedicated users who keep coming back, you'll have to steadily improve your projects, and nurture them into full-fledged awesome products. There are no shortcuts, what you put in is what you get out (usually).
Also, the original idea is almost never perfect. Products evolve over time, flickr didn't start as a photo site. Listen to you customers, but not too much, find the problems that REALLY need solving. Like Henry Ford said, "if I listened to the customers, I would have made a faster horse." What he really means that the customers wanted faster transportation, not necessarily a horse. You need that insight to see what the core problems are, and solve them in novel ways.
>>I lack visual design skills, but yet trying to do my best to provide a usable UI for the products. One of my motives in building a product against my lack of visual skills is knowing that "they started as crap too".
That is not good enough. Knowing you suck at UX is a good start. But justifying it by calling out reddit, twitter, and stumbleupon? That's just naive. You want to know what made them succeed? THEY GOT BETTER. They didn't sit on their ass saying "well, those other guys suck, so I can too." No, they were the ones saying "I'll endlessly strive to make my product better every single day."
Software adopts the personality of the developer(s). Users can tell when the developer actually loves and cares about something enough to follow through with good support and updates. Similarly, users want software that gets to the core of their problems, not just shallow complaints, which brings me to my next point:
>>My projects are mostly based on features that are missing or misimplemented in the existing products.
Do NOT base your software on a feature. Features are shallow, like breast implants. Build VISION and PERSONALITY into your software, and people will love you even if you're flat-chested. Again, this goes back to UX/UI and taking care of your product and helping it evolve a personality AFTER launch.
[+] [-] mcrittenden|15 years ago|reply
Just wanted to make sure no one glossed over that gem. Great quote.
[+] [-] adrianoconnor|15 years ago|reply
I believe there are two highly valuable skills you need to run a successful business: 1. The ability to create amazing products (either yourself or through motivating others) and 2. Ability to get your message out and get people interested.
I fail badly at #2. I guess I need to find a partner who is naturally magnetic and can sell dreams to people. The thing is, once you're over that hump you'll get momentum -- you can ask for feedback, you can engage with those people, and, hopefully, they'll hep you spread the word. Alternatively, you can throw ad-dollars at it and work on the conversion rate, but advertising is mostly owned by people with lots of money so you'll drown before you manage to even start swimming.
[+] [-] codyguy|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] grammaton|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nutjob123|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sammyo|15 years ago|reply
An important element of useablility that is often ignored and misunderstood is familarity. In many ways it just does not matter that MSWindows or Facebook is clunky, or violates important useability or is just wrong or broken. When the environment hits a critial mass of familarity the only way to co-exist with an entrenched community is compatibility. As galling as it is to use a windows file picker look & feel, it's what folks are familar. Changing the visual paradigms does happen (review the history of the web) but fairly quicky a new normalicy (see web pulldown bars) gets established. Show some examples and/or look for a design partner.
[+] [-] sdizdar|15 years ago|reply
I'm using many confusing and ugly products but since they solve my problem, I use them (all HA software product on market, etc.).
I believe the key to solve something people really need. Hey I still have problems how to do code reviews (for cheap - like $10 per seat) - something like google wave but code reviews.
Now, there is also problem how to get your message out and get people interested (since they might not know they have a problem you are solving). I was told to watch infomercials on TV and try to make something like that on your home page, blogs, forums...
[+] [-] symptic|15 years ago|reply