Ask HN: What is the difference between Burnout/Depression/Laziness/Wrong job?

[throwaway130119]

Burnout gets a fair bit of discussion here on HN, but I'm wondering what the community thinks are the differences between a few subtly different challenges:

1) Burnout

2) Depression

3) Laziness

4) Being in the wrong job

Given that they all have very similar symptoms, how would you determine which one an individual is dealing with?

[_ywdj]

Burnout is your mind/body's way of telling you and/or signalling to others that you've been stuck on the wrong path for too long.

Depression is a clinical condition that arises when your mind/brain is unable to cope with the experiences/environment it's been in for an extended period of time, and is a signal that a change is needed in the brain/mind (medication and/or therapy) or in the environment (changes to e.g., lifestyle, relationships, job, location) - and likely both.

Laziness is a lack of motivation that could be caused by any number of things, but is generally a sign that your current life situation doesn't inspire you into positive action. But it could also be related to an undiagnosed mental and/or physiological illness that impedes your energy production/utilisation.

Being in the wrong job is a common sentiment, and may or may not be a problem depending on how empowered someone is. An empowered person (someone with enough qualifications/experience/confidence/energy/etc) will negotiate better conditions for their current job or find a new job that they're better suited to. A disempowered person will stay in the job due to lack of other options, and after long enough may end up being affected by one or more of the first three conditions.

Background: experienced it all over 15+ years and researched far and wide.

[FPGAhacker]

I think this is a good answer, but depression is a complicated beast.

It would be difficult to give a comprehensive comment in depression, so I think you did fine, but I want to point out that it is difficult and complex, and as much as we understand about it, there is so much that is not understood.

This [1] is a video of a Robert Sapolsky lecture on depression that gives a high level but comprehensive overview of the current (as of 2009) state of understanding depression, kinds of depression, the role of some neurotransmitters.

This is a compassionate, technical, and broad overview.

1. https://youtu.be/NOAgplgTxfc

[bergerjac]

Jobs are like clothes. There is no "wrong job". There are jobs which fit now, and all other jobs.

A job may fit, then as we grow, we get new ones that fit better.

I would say the stages are usually:

#1: Grow out of the current job

#2: Still working same hours, but tasks become boring, therefore instead of the job fueling us, it drains us... causing Burnout.

#3: Then Laziness settles in, because putting energy into boring tasks only leads to Burnout.

#4: Spiraling down the Laziness slide, into Depression. Simply, Depression is a loss of interest in activities once enjoyed. The antidote to Depression is doing... Doing new things we enjoy.

Therefore, take up an entirely new, and different practice. Perhaps move up to management. Or go to a new place, around new people.

TLDR: Do new.

[protonimitate]

I like this summary, but disagree slightly with

>Laziness is a lack of motivation that could be caused by any number of things, but is generally a sign that your current life situation doesn't inspire you into positive action.

I see motivation/inspiration/laziness conflated a lot. IMO 'laziness' is just a lack of discipline. You can be disciplined and still accomplish things without motivation or inspiration. In fact, I would argue that if you wait until you are inspired/motivated to get things done, you will be on the less-productive side of the spectrum.

Of course, it can be a huge challenge to stay disciplined when you are burnt out or depressed (or both). But, laziness is the difference between "I am depressed and don't feel like going to the gym" and "I am depressed and don't feel like going to the gym anyway, but I am still putting on my shoes and walking out the door".

[dabockster]

Jumping from this, a combination of any of the symptoms may indicate something much more severe with your mental health. You should see a doctor at that point.

Source: Got diagnosed with ADHD after feeling burnout, depression, laziness, and imposter syndrome all at once.

[reasonablemann]

Fantastic answer because it highlights how these conditions can be overcome by changing your situation.

Clinical methodology for treating depression in Sweden is to change the person's living / work situation as a first step before pursuing other treatments.

[lr4444lr]

I think the OP is looking for a differential diagnosis. Here is my 2 cents:

Burnout: taking time off is a sufficient cure.

Depression: you cannot feel pleasure even at points of success when everyone else is, and it won't be so if you changed anything else about the job.

Laziness: you are not unhappy or unwell but notice other people with roughly your skillset and responsibility are more productive.

Wrong job: you are arguing a lot with people or taking a lot of criticism for having legitimately valid alternative opinions or ways of doing things.

[dnautics]

I disagree about burnout. Taking time off could possibly be the worst thing.

In my experience personally and observing others, burnout is most often caused when you have a disconnect between expected reward (monetary, status, or emotional) for labor and actual reward for labor, effectively negatively reinforcing labor. It's especially bad when the miss is uncorrelated to performance, e.g. political or business decisions derail your e.g. promotion or payoff.

Taking a break to mitigate burnout can thus make the next cycle worse. A better choice is to take structured vacations at set points in the future, and when you feel like a missed expectation is likely or has happened, reinforce the work-reward relationship by doing little work things that create pops of success. The counterintuitive thing is that a strategy to counter burnout is more work (but carefully curated to nearly guarantee success)

For programming, I find going into an intense refactoring or debugging cycle is helpful (making green dots out of red ones is immensely satisfying)... When I was a biologist, I found doing routine "never fail" procedures like molecular biology to be helpful after an experimental failure or catastrophe, like staying up on an all nighter and coming back the next day to find a procedural error had ruined the whole thing

[jjk166]

Burnout is the mental equivalent of an athletic injury: you might love what you do, but you've been going at it too hard and need time to recuperate. A burnt out person was previously happy doing what they were doing but just now can't go on.

Depression is a mental health condition that can cause lethargy and can be brought on by stress, but it is chiefly characterized by extended and repeated periods of sadness and self loathing and can be brought on by many causes, including traumatic events, changes in hormone balance, or environmental factors. Simple rest and relaxation will not, at least on its own, make depression go away. While a depressed person is having a depressive episode, they may find it very difficult to work, but in between episodes they will work normally.

Laziness means you don't like to work, or at least can't motivate yourself to do the tasks you need to do. It is a character trait that neither starts nor goes away suddenly. Instead it something that must be routinely overcome. A lazy person may have a lower baseline level of motivation than a non-lazy person, but their motivation level should remain about as consistent as a normal person's; they won't have sudden unexplainable drops in productivity.

Being in the wrong job means something specific to the job itself is problematic but the person is otherwise an enthusiastic worker. Instead of sudden dips in enthusiasm, or consistent low performance, they will likely show a slow but steady decline as the negative aspects of their job takes a toll. Often the person in the wrong job actually likes the work itself, but other aspects of the working environment such as coworkers or organization make them unhappy.

Finally, these cases are not mutually exclusive. A lazy person can find themselves in the wrong job, get burntout trying to do it anyways, triggering the onset of depression. Luckily, the remedies for each challenge are very unlikely to have a negative effect on someone who is actually facing one of the other challenges.

[JakeAl]

This video is a good primer on burnout by an expert.

"Understanding Burnout," Prof. Christina Maslach (U.C. Berkeley) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kLPyV8lBbs

This article is a summary of what's in the above speaker's book

Recovering from Burnout https://kierantie.com/burnout/

I also want to mention the article above has a link to Mind Tools, which is a web site that has a test you can take but I recommend reading their articles on leadership as it helps one understand their place and the direction they need to take as leaders of their own life as well as leaders in the lives of others, which is an interesting perspective in the context of the listed topics.

[spurgu]

>a web site that has a test you can take

Yay, 60 points!

[n1000]

ADHD is missing in the list. Many undiagnosed adults with ADHD consider themselves lazy and / or stupid. However, the disorder has important impact on the executive function of the brain and also on emotional regulation (depression is a common comorbidity and is often falsely diagnosed as bipolar disorder). Oh and ADHD makes people more prone to burnout.

[bluntfang]

I scared to label laziness or stupidity as undiagnosed mental illness/disorder. People with ADHD are valuable to society and have different strengths, weaknesses, and perspectives than those without, although they may not be best suited for jobs that require high levels of executive function.

[BI440ZX]

In Russia and many other exSoviet countries doctors don't diagnose ADHD.

[jm__87]

I think I would start with the easiest one, which is whether or not you feel like you're in the right job. Just make a list of what you like about your job and what you don't like. If the dislike category is large, you need to ask yourself some more questions. Are you likely to find employment elsewhere in your field without all those cons? This may require some research. If not, are there other fields of work that may be better suited to your preferences? Again, got to do some research here.

I'm just going to ignore the laziness point since I don't really like that word. You can dislike an activity and avoid it, that doesn't make you lazy. If you need to still do something regardless of whether you like it or not, you need to change how you think about that activity or find a way to enjoy it, otherwise you're just needlessly torturing yourself. Or you just avoid thinking about how much you dislike something and just do it instead. Either way, saying someone is lazy carries both a negative judgement and a lack of insight, so this word I think is best avoided. If you feel you're being "lazy", best to try to understand why you're avoiding what you think you should be doing and fix it.

Lastly, if you're depressed or burnt out, there will be some obvious signs. You'll be tired, have a hard time focusing, you may have muscle aches or headaches all the time. You may see nothing positive in your future and may ruminate excessively about your perceived shortcomings or problems. You may also find it difficult or impossible to react emotionally to things (e.g. being excited or sad). Basically, you'll feel terrible all the time.

[me551ah]

1) Burnout - When you first start doing something, like a new project or a new technology you end up enjoying it since there is so much to learn and do. Over a period of time you end up doing the same mundane tasks and have to exert a huge amount of effort to do something which you could earlier do in a short period of time. Usually only limited to work. Switching projects/jobs helps.

2) Depression - It is a state of mind where you do not have the energy to do anything, not only in office but also in personal life. Usually characterized by lack of enthusiasm in anything and a lingering feeling of sadness. Switching jobs won't help, consulting a psychiatrist will.

3) Laziness - A state where you have been doing the same thing for so long that you have gotten good at it and do not feel panic anymore. If you do not have any aim in life and just want to cruise along ( and have the ability to cruise along while getting good reviews in office ) laziness is a valid choice. It might not get you promoted or noticed at office and you will stagnate. IMO it is not a negative state to be in, but not positive either.

4) Being in the wrong job - Two types that I can think of

1. You have tons of energy, you have tons of enthusiasm and want to do tons of work but still you seem to be going nowhere, is a sign of being in the wrong job.

2. You have low energy, you don't enjoy what you do while at your job. At home you have high energy, contribute to projects and can work on stuff which interests you and can get you paid. In burnout, depression and laziness people's ability to do side projects is markedly diminished. This is not the case with being in the wrong job.

[Noumenon72]

4 sub 1: Exactly what happened to me at the plastics factory. So much better off programming.

4 sub 2: I think I have the right job but the wrong home.

[anujsharmax]

> how would you determine which one an individual is dealing with?

The individual needs to talk to an expert (a doctor or a therapist) to find this.

Many medical issues show similar symptoms - we go to a doctor for a physical issue, then why do we think we know enough to diagnose mental issues?

These things are complex, and it is okay to ask for help.

[keratin7]

I'm not saying that we're, by any means, qualified to self diagnose. The problem with your analogy is there are physical attributes/tests that tell doctors what is wrong when dealing with physiological problems. Even when the methods rely on us telling the doctors, it's usually a binary choice. On the other hand, it gets a lot more subjective when it comes to mental health.

[throwaway3912]

The list is mixing apples and oranges.

In psychology, laziness simply does not exists as a mental health issue or as a personality trait.

It's a vague and judgemental word used to describe a behavior while the real cause might be burnout, depression or many other.

[bergerjac]

OP doesn't mention "psychology", nor "mental health issue", nor "personality trait"

Laziness isn't vague, nor judgemental. Laziness is marked by non-production. Which can be measured by simple time-tracking. How many hours a day is he coding/writing vs. on YouTube "passing the time".

Moreover, the post specifically says "symptoms". And he's attempting to discern between the words, specifically asking "What's the difference between..."

[WestCoastJustin]

> how would you determine which one an individual is dealing with?

It really depends on your relationship with this person. If you are peers, it is really none of your business, they need to chat with their manager or HR (if they want too/have too). You have no idea what they are going through at home, it could be some health issue, and none of these things, or all these things. If you are managing someone who is going through this, you need to support them, what can you do to help/understand? Likely this starts with a coffee and a chat on how's things going? Do they need time off, are they over worked, work on what a path forward looks like. If you are friendly peers, chat with them in a non-weird way. Take them for coffee/beers, ask how are things going, how's work?

Just a heads up, don't ask someone who is burnt out or depressed, why they are lazy or lagging behind, this is extremely out of touch with what they are going through. I'm sure they are already hyper aware.

[MrTonyD]

Kinda off-topic, but I've had jobs where I've been considered incompetent, and other jobs where I've been considered gifted and visionary. Other jobs have considered me lazy, a hard worker, smart, and dumb. My point is that often we are given labels in contexts - and those labels are totally unrelated to reality except by the specific people in those contexts. So we need to be careful - none of us are perfect, but that doesn't mean that we should believe what we are told.

[ak39]

My 2c from personal experience (n=1):

1) Burnout is acute exhaustion caused by successive days of lack of sleep, successive weekends of working late with long delays in launch, feedback or project completion.

2) Depression (not the clinical kind) is chronic exhaustion and chronic depletion of dopamine. No hope. No care for the project, product or for completion because you know it doesn't matter. This is caused by poor feedback, rejections, project failures (product does not work) but mostly because of running out of money.

3) Laziness is when your subconscious is too smart for yourself about the prospects of success resulting in inaction. For example: you may be outwardly excited about a project/product but your internal subconscious mind has already doomed it as a failure therefore you find all sorts of excuses not to start or finish the project. Your subconscious has already done FWIW a cost-benefit and SWOT analysis and judges the project as a no-go or no-continue.

4) Being in the wrong job is the number 1 reason for the causes of all 1), 2) and 3) above.

[lsc]

Burnout is what we call this thing when we try to solve it by taking a break

depression is what we call this thing when we try to solve it via medical intervention of some sort.

Lazyness is what we call this thing when we try to solve it through force of will and/or shame, or when we don't try to solve it at all.

Being in the wrong job is what we call this thing when we try to solve it by getting a different job.

[lsc]

for that matter, it might be more useful to s/try to solve it/solve it/ - I mean, clearly, different solutions work in different situations.

I'm not trying to say they are all the same thing; just that the only way I can tell the difference is what therapies work.

[sologoub]

Burnout and depression may seem similar on the surface, but burnout frequently starts from resentment and essentially having to “force” yourself through that resentment. Heavy physical and/or cognitive workload usually goes hand-in-hand with the said resentment.

For burnout, rest is important and structuring your work/life systems defensively can help prevent it. Some interesting studies exist on this: https://hbr.org/2014/03/googles-scientific-approach-to-work-...

Depression may or may not be tied to anything a person can control. This is where medication and therapy are very important. Like with most serious health issues, self-medicating and self-treating serious depression can be extremely hazardous.

[Walkman]

Depression is a serious mental illness, in which 7-10% of the patients die (because of suicide). Not kidding. It is caused by the imbalance of serotonin and readrenalin neurotransmitters.

Depression is NOT a synonym for "bad mood" or "being tired", it's much more serious than that.

[JamesBarney]

> It is caused by the imbalance of serotonin and readrenalin neurotransmitters.

Totally agree depression is a serious mental illness, but this description is like describing bugs as a "debugging deficiency". We know depression and bugs can be fixed with debugging/ssris but just because we can fix them with it doesn't mean the opposite is the cause.

For instance in addition to serotonin and nor-epinephrine we also know glutamate (nmda and ampa) is involved, as well as opiates, gaba, bdnf, dopamine, and inflammation.

[estebandalelr]

As I see it, they are a package. The wrong job takes you to burnout, which causes perceived laziness (I'd say it's inability to work), and, if fired, might end up in depression. It's a deep hole that requires noticing early.

[hoffs]

Combination of burnout and wrong job can definitely lead to a person feeling like his work is useless and causing depression. Don't think you need to get fired for that.

[eecsninja]

I've always been an optimistic and motivated person, so I can't speak for depression and laziness. But I can speak for burnout.

For me, burnout is the result of a long period of intense work and effort that accomplishes little. I experienced this in my last job, where I was brought in to a specific purpose by a motivated boss who quit the company a few weeks later. The rest of the org was too bogged down with politics, lack of tech leadership, and other organizational issues. I put in a lot of effort as an individual SWE to fix bugs and help other teammates when they got stuck, but nobody else was putting in so much diligent effort for the sake of the team. I burned out and a t the same time realized that I was on the wrong team, when (1) people kept coming to me for help with the same things I'd already taught them in the past (2) I had way too many moments teaching other people how their own code works (code that they own, that I'd barely looked at) (3) too much energy was spent dealing with other teams rather than on our own team getting work done (4) I had three managers in 18 months (5) everything was owned by multiple teams, and I wore myself out working with too many components that should have been strictly divided between teams.

I have since moved to a new team. This is a much better team -- no politics, no BS, just a few diligent individuals getting things done.

But being on the right team doesn't fix burnout. I'm still burned out from my last job. I took the last six months to ramp up on my current job but I need to take time off soon.

[pasbesoin]

One question, is whether the designation is objective or projective.

There are a lot of "lazy" people "doing the wrong thing", whom closer analysis -- or just actually listening to them -- indicates are actually acting rationally, within their circumstances, and doing the best they can.

In part, the question for me comes down to: Are you going to label? Or are you going to do something about it?

I see and hear a lot of the former. Much less of the latter.

Yet those same people would hate to be treated as they insist others be treated.

So, I don't listen to them, too much.

For years, I made myself ill dealing with tremendously distracting and counter-productive open-space work environments. From college onward, I was told -- encultured -- that "this is the future" and that I'd better learn to cope with, err "thrive", in it.

Now, finally, the cultural dialog is turning the corner on this. They really are horrible, not just in terms of personal welfare but also productivity.

So, what really changed? I was "contrary"; well, actually, I wish I had been more so and actually acted against my circumstances.

Now, it turns out, I was "insightful".

Who really failed? The bozos who stuffed us into cattle pens and couldn't even perform decent metrics against their claims, let alone look at the welfare of their employees.

So, "burnout", "depression", "laziness"? Just words.

Find something you enjoy doing. Some place you enjoy living. And stuff the "opinions" about it.

[tomohawk]

Burnout is often the result of stress. One of the main causes of stress is lack of control of your situation. When you are in a job where you are not empowered, then it is likely the wrong job. This can lead to burnout. One symptom of burnout is depression.

If you feel like you are in a situation where you have no control and are feeling stressed, find someone to talk to. Take some serious time off. Gain some perspective.

[apohn]

All of this is in my experience. I'm not a psychologist.

I think it's easier to point to the cause of burnout. Too much pressures/stress at work/home for a prolonged period of time, a bad work environment, the loss of an expected reward after a long period of extended hours, etc. Identifying the root cause won't cure burnout, but you can at least take steps to change it. When you're burned out you may feel like you'll never climb out of it, but at least you can identify steps (e.g. new job) that may help in the long term. Burnout can last a while (1 year+) after a really bad experience.

Depression is harder (impossible?) to point to a single cause. You can feel a completely loss of feeling, or even just one feeling (sadness) and not really know why you feel that way. Depression can go on for a very long time.

I think a lack of motivation and creativity is there with both burnout and depression.

Being in the wrong job is when somebody is highly motivated and has a lot ideas, but their work environment kills that motivation or inspiration completely.