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Ask HN: Berlin - costs of living, python jobs?

58 points| zalew | 15 years ago | reply

Hi HN

I'm from Warsaw and as Germany is opening market for Polish workers the upcoming year, I'm considering Berlin as a destination - been there, love the city, like German people.

Could you give me some info:

1. cost of life and earnings, basically the same as in this topic http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1778185 (no Berlin there)

2. a quick view at the scene - are there any interesting companies, startups, etc. doing python?

3. popular job boards, message boards, where to look at? see nothing at djangogigs

tx

66 comments

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[+] maxklein|15 years ago|reply
There are a lot of jobs in tech, but they mostly seem to be small companies trying to pay little. So to get by at 15€ a hour, you'll probably find a lot of offers.

Accommodation is cheap, I pay 400€ for 50sqm, a friend of mine pays 550 for 70sqm with 3 rooms. That's in a central part of town. In general, between 320 - 600 you can find a pretty reasonable place for a person to live alone.

Döner costs €2.50, a chinese meal off a stall costs €3.00, a restaurant meal in some small restaurant 5€ or 6€, in some normal restaurant maybe 9€ to 12€. Beer costs €3 in most clubs and bars, cocktails €4.50 to €8.00.

Transport costs €70 a month for the train? Not so sure about this. Parking is easy on the outskirts, but the very center of town you usually need to pay in a parkhouse.

Lots of english speaking people, and it's very popular for euro-immigrants (france, england, spain, etc), so a very western europe scene, and very easy to get by on english only.

Berlin generally has a bad work climate (I've heard people say), so if I were you, I'd apply for 10-20 jobs from Warsaw, then come over, stay a week in a ferienwohnung, do all the interviews and if you find one you like, move here. Moving without a job could put you under undue pressure. Warsaw is just 4 hours by train, is it not?

I believe there are a lot of young companies in Berlin, so I don't think the Airbus style jobs are really available here.

[+] strayer|15 years ago|reply
For the Airbus style of jobs perhaps you should consider Hamburg (similar costs, much smaller) because there you could find... Airbus. Not so international atmosphere, though, although the harbour is major local industry.

An added bonus is the local beach over the Elba :-)

[+] zalew|15 years ago|reply
tx

I'd apply for 10-20 jobs from Warsaw, then come over, stay a week...

that's exactly what I'm going to do

so I don't think the Airbus style jobs are really available here

what is an 'airbus style job'? :)

[+] maryrosecook|15 years ago|reply
Ableton, the company I work for, are based in Berlin and are looking for Python devs: http://www.ableton.com/jobs It's a really nice place to work, and the pay is OK for Berlin.

Great summary of cost of living and tech scene from maxklein. You can live very cheaply here, if you work at it. Some bars serve a half-litre of beer for 1€, some reasonable apartments can be got for 120€ a month if you can live with coal-fired heating.

The other tech company I know well is SoundCloud. They are great. They are mostly Ruby-based, but they're expanding the technology they use rapidly at the moment, so they might be flexible.

Good luck: Berlin is a fantastic place to live.

[+] fylox|15 years ago|reply
Cubase user here cough Anyway I'd imagine that working for Ableton is fairly cool.

Although I am not qualified enough for such a position I am curious what requirements they have. I check your link and they ask for at least 2 years of experience. Is that "all" ?

As a CS drop out I can't even provide bachelor's degree. The point I am trying to make is: As far as I know here in Germany employees always ask for degrees. Am I way off?

Could I train myself the necessary skills and then work my way up and then some day I'd be qualified enough to work for a company like Ableton?

[+] radiothom|15 years ago|reply
Yep, SoundCloud is great (so is Ableton!). While we are ruby-based at SoundCloud, we are definitely expanding and open to various backgrounds! So definitely visit the jobs page if you're interested: soundcloud.com/jobs.

Agree with Mary - Berlin is a fantastic place to live and very affordable in many areas. Great city with a growing start-up scene!

[+] cageface|15 years ago|reply
Ableton seems like it would be a great place to work. Enabling creative people appeals to me a lot more than putting yet another spin on social networking.
[+] BvS|15 years ago|reply
Ramen-style about 600€/month (living with a roommate, prepare your own meals -> maybe it could be even lower if don't go out at all, don't buy new clothes, ride a bike instead of public transportation... )

Have your own space, go out sometimes, take cab once in a while... about 1.200€+/month (obviously open end).

Add at least another 130€/month for health insurance.

Unfortunately I don't know about any python gigs but if you are familiar with RoR, let me know... As a freelancer (RoR) you should get something between 300€ - 800€ / day (deepending on your experience).

Update: For Startup-Jbs you might want to check out: http://www.deutsche-startups.de/startups-jobs/stellenangebot... (not only programming and not only Berlin).

Another place would be: http://www.jobisjob.de/berlin/ruby/jobs (Rubyjobs in Berlin)

You might also consider to get an (free) account at www.xing.com (kind of Germanys LinkedIn which is used by many recruiters).

If you would consider/interested in working for a non-profit (including non-profit pay ;-(, please check out www.betterplace.org or www.spenden.de (the later will relaunch soon). They are/will be done with RoR and are sometimes looking for programmers (mostly freelancers). If interested I might be able to help here.

[+] cageface|15 years ago|reply
What kind of work visa do you need to do freelance work in Germany? How do you go about getting one without a sponsor?
[+] robin_reala|15 years ago|reply
Why health insurance? Surely the OP is covered in the EU if they get an EHIC? Or does that not apply for a permanent move?
[+] andreadallera|15 years ago|reply
I'm a ruby programmer and I'd be interested to relocate to Berlin for a while... Do you have something for me? Even just some suggestions on how to get a gig would be very appreciated.

This is my github account http://www.github.com/bolthar . My expertise with RoR is limited but I know ASP.NET MVC very well and they're similar.

[+] ig1|15 years ago|reply
Berlin is fairly cheap, cheaper than any other major city in western europe at least. Accommodation prices can vary widely, they can go from as little as 200 euros/months for a studio on the outskirts. I was paying 800 euros/month for a large one-bed flat in fairly central east berlin (P-Berg).

Lots of startups, probably some doing Python, not sure who off the top of my head. Most recruitment in Berlin seems to be done via social networks rather than via job boards, so your best bet might be to get involved with the startup community and get some leads from there.

[+] Uchikoma|15 years ago|reply
"Most recruitment in Berlin seems to be done via social networks rather than via job boards."

Most hiring I've done in Berlin is via job boards.

[+] shanked|15 years ago|reply
Somewhat related...

As opposed to Berlin specifically, how should an American software engineer get a job in a different country? I'd like to experience different cultures and I'd like to move to another country (after finding a job) but I'm not sure how I should go about doing it.

Initially, I think western Europe is the most ideal place since I do not know any other languages, some place where many people spoke English would be ideal.

If anyone has any tips for how an American (with no foreign contacts, or fluency in other languages) can land a job in a western European country, I'd be very interested in hearing them.

[+] pavlov|15 years ago|reply
Scandinavia and the Netherlands are easy destinations for Americans. Ordinary people speak good English for the most part, and even those who claim not to speak English actually understand the language quite well (mostly thanks to decades of exposure to subtitled American TV shows).

At least here in Finland, English has become the de facto working language at many companies and university departments. Nowadays there is almost always at least one non-Finn in any team, and nobody assumes that foreigners would ever learn Finnish. In large European countries like Germany and France, it's still often assumed that you'll adapt to their language and way of thinking (the French in particular will take it for granted that you're there to absorb the radiant glow of their superior cultural heritage ;)).

Northern Europe is also pretty good for finding IT jobs. Finland has Nokia, Sweden has Ericsson, Netherlands has Philips, Norway has... lots of oil money, I guess. And Denmark is simply a fun place. Take your pick ;)

[+] kablamo|15 years ago|reply
Singapore. English speaking. Modern clean safe beautiful city. Mostly banking and finance here. Something like 2% unemployment, 15% economic growth this year. Lots of Westerners (and Indians, Chinese, Malay, Phillipinos, Indonesians, etc hugely diverse). Little India, Chinatown. Very easy to get a work visa. Low taxes. Tropical island. Can be as cheap as $50 to fly to Bali and a weekend of surfing. All of Southeast Asia a few hours flight away.

On the bad side:

* Freaking hot. You will get used to it after about 8 months.

* Expensive apartments. Not as bad as SF or NYC, but getting up there.

* Despite being a decent size city, it often has a conservative, small town atmosphere.

* Asia loves status and brand names and leans towards Java and .Net and industrial programming and tends to look down on scripting languages

Hong kong is probably good to look at too. Bigger more interesting city but like everywhere, has its drawbacks too of course.

[+] TheFro|15 years ago|reply
I'm an american, only speaking english, I've worked in Germany and work in the UK right now. Basically stick to the following areas:

1. Scandinavia/Nordic areas - Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland

2. UK - Obvious english speaking choice ;)

3. "Germanic" - Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland

Countries like France, Spain, Italy, etc are very difficult for a non-native speaker.

Getting a visa in the UK is quite difficult (especially because recent administration). Not sure about the other areas but I imagine its quite easy. My german stay was through a large corporation (40K+ employees) and my current work I had the difficulty of getting a tier 1 uk visa on my own.

What programming languages and business areas are you interested in?

[+] tallanvor|15 years ago|reply
It is definitely possible to find work in Europe as an American.

I'm an American who was originally sent to the UK to help open an office there. I later was hired by another company to come work in Oslo, where I am now. Scandinavia in general is very easy to find work (they have a strong need for educated people in IT areas - development, support, etc). Getting a job in the UK is certainly possible, but the paperwork is much more of a hassle (30-60 pages depending on the type of visa compared to 4 pages for Norway).

Pretty much everyone here speaks English, although depending on the company you may be strongly encouraged to learn the local language. The plus side of that, though, is that they will often pay for the classes.

Finding the job itself is going to be more difficult just because the job postings may be in the local language and on local sites, but you can use Google to translate them decently. For Norway, the best place to start is finn.no.

[+] _b8r0|15 years ago|reply
In the UK, English is (unsurprisingly) widely spoken, but it's a little different to the English you're used to.

Expect endless confusion over faggots (meatballs), football (soccer) and the myriad of ways to describe the weather.

They also speak English in Ireland, you can get by fine almost on English alone in most of Holland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway and bits of Germany.

You'll probably find England the easiest to deal with and it makes a good base. Ireland is lovely but at the moment the job market isn't so great. The economy's very shaky here in England too, but people are hiring for tech jobs.

Your best bet is to try and get transferred through an international company, find a UK-based company that will sponsor a visa (hard, as there's plenty of tech workers here), or come over to study on a visa that will allow you to find work here after you graduate.

[+] pdelgallego|15 years ago|reply
I can speak about Denmark from an expat point of view. I moved here 6 months ago. I dont speak Danish at all and I am not very good in English, so far, the language has not been a problem, even many tv shows are in English with Danish subs.

There are many .Net jobs here, and not so many doing Ruby or Python. You can take a look at the job offers in http://it-jobbank.dk or http://stepstone.dk.

The living expensives are really high here.

I cant tell about work visa because I am a EU citezen, so the rules are different.

If you have any question about Denmark or Spain, just drop me a line.

[+] pietro|15 years ago|reply
In Scandinavia, language is a non-issue. Everyone speaks English, and many tech shops use English for all written communication.
[+] sambe|15 years ago|reply
I had the option of moving to Berlin or finding something else, and whilst I liked some aspects of Berlin, eventually decided not to move there. Of course, everyone is different but the relevant points to the question are:

1) whilst it is cheap - and rent is included in that statement - it is also big and low density. I felt that I wouldn't want to live away from the central, fashionable areas as the rest of the city feels a bit deserted. Living there probably adds 500EUR/month to your costs.

2) most of the "entrepreneurial" action seems to be in the arts. I didn't see lots of technology and/or international companies e.g. if things don't work out for you.

I have a friend from Berlin running a technoloogy company who loves it there though - and he seems to be able to hire a reasonable amount of talent. And some people don't mind the commute/quiet life as much as me.

[+] maryrosecook|15 years ago|reply
Point (1) does not fit with my experience here at all. Kreuzberg is central, cheap and very lively.
[+] pdelgallego|15 years ago|reply
I lived in Germany for a couple of years, most of the time in Hamburg, but I used to go Berlin quite often.

The cost of living in Berlin is very variable. I love Kreuzberg, you have good and cheap options to dinner for ~10 euros (e.g around Görlitzer Bahnhof you have some good vietnamese and indian resturants). The rent should be around 250 - 350 E a room. In east berlin you can find cheaper pelaces to live in.

I dont know about job post, but just contact the Berlin Python User Group. I am sure they can give you some good advices about it. The mailing list dont look very acttive, but I am sure is still the best place to start (http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/python-berlin)

[+] Uchikoma|15 years ago|reply
I can only write from my perspective, 110qm are around 950 EUR including heating, but this is a more expensive part of town (not the most expensive though). Fairly cheap compared to other large cities in Germany.

There are many tech jobs, most companies are hiring.

As a developer you might make 35-60k EUR a year, depending on the company and your skills.

Transport is currently 72 EUR a month.

Meals are around 5 EUR for lunch, 10 EUR or above in the evening. Pizza is below 10 EUR. Beer is around 3 EUR.

[+] Uchikoma|15 years ago|reply
I might add: Freelancer is 500 EUR to 1000 EUR (and above) a day depending on your skills (obviously ;-)
[+] yule|15 years ago|reply
Regarding where to look for jobs, I'd suggest stepstone.de, heise.de/jobs and also xing.com (a LinkedIn-like site with more german users - the Python and Django groups also have a dedicated forum for jobs).