Ask HN: Starting a CS degree at 28?

[miguelrochefort]

At 21, I started a CS degree but quit after just 1 semester because I already knew how to program and didn't think I would ever need the piece of paper.

Today I'm 28, I have 4 years of experience as a mobile application developer, and I recently quit my job to travel and "find meaning to my life". Spoiler: I didn't.

I'm now considering going back to school to get a CS degree. I always worry that my lack of degree will/does hurt my career. I'm Canadian and can't get a visa to work in the US, I can't work in some companies, I can't get some promotions, I always have to work harder to prove my worth, etc. It doesn't help that all of my family and friends have at least a Bachelor's degree.

I have many questions/worries:

- I would (hopefully) graduate at 32. Then what?

- What doors will the degree open? Will I still care about those then (i.e., trying to get a job in the US at FAANG).

- How much work is a CS degree for someone who's already a programmer?

- Can I both get a CS degree and work full-time?

- What's the opportunity cost, in time/money/experience?

- How likely am I to complete the degree, given that things in my life could change (opportunities, disease, motivation, depression, passion, love, children)?

- Should the excuses I attribute to my lack of degree be attributed to something else (mental barrier, low confidence, imposter syndrome)?

- Assuming the most important part is to have a Bachelor's degree, and not necessarily a CS degree, should I study something else in which I would actually learn something useful (as opposed to learning things I already know)?

- Are there different career paths in which I won't have to worry as much about my lack of degree (i.e., freelancing)? Are they sustainable?

- Is there a shortcut to get an accredited Master's degree without getting a Bachelor's degree?

What would you do in my situation?

[Someone1234]

Reads like "travel and find meaning to my life" version 2.0.

You're currently doing something you dislike. You want to stop, go take a bunch of years out studying (something you previously hated), only to return almost exactly to where you started. The implied expectation being that you'll be happier when you get there...

See I don't get it. You're already employerable, a degree won't move the needle too much, just give you a debt boat-anchor meaning you'll less flexible going forward and less able to find the thing that makes you happy.

In general I think CS degrees are great. But in your case it seems needless and like you're repeating recent mistakes, like you want to check out for another few years while you discover yourself.

I'd strongly recommend you think extremely carefully before you indebted yourself to student loans. If this plain fails, you're stuck in those jobs you hate for tens of years while you pay it off.

[miguelrochefort]

> Reads like "travel and find meaning to my life" version 2.0.

I don't expect to learn anything from that CS degree, or find meaning to my life. I would do it exclusively for the piece of paper. I would likely do it online, do the bare minimum work, and not network with other students/teachers at all.

> See I don't get it. You're already employerable, a degree won't move the needle too much, just give you a debt boat-anchor meaning you'll less flexible going forward and less able to find the thing that makes you happy.

I'm employable, but I don't get to be picky in what I work on. A lot of doors are (I think, I could be wrong) closed to me because of my lack of degree. There are not jobs I ever thought I would want (banking, government, management), but I can already feel that I might seek these things when I get older with a family and kids and a need for security.

> I'd strongly recommend you think extremely carefully before you indebted yourself to student loans. If this plain fails, you're stuck in those jobs you hate for tens of years while you pay it off.

What if I could get a degree in 3 years for $10,000? Would your advice still stand? This might actually be a possibility.

[zapperdapper]

Completely agree.

My very real experience is a lack of a degree won't hold you back, a lack of passion will.

It definitely sounds like there's a deeper issue in play here...

[gulato]

Maybe this isn't the type of answer you're looking for but …

Today I am 44. I started my CS degree at a Canadian university at 38. I was a self-taught programmer, but had never worked in industry.

- What doors will the degree open? Will I still care about those then (i.e., trying to get a job in the US at FAANG). I don't know the answer to this. I'm eligible to work in the US through another method so I never looked in to it.

- I would (hopefully) graduate at 32. Then what? I graduated at 44 and found a job immediately. Maybe not a sexy job with a ping pong table in the break room and beer on Friday, but it pays.

- Can I both get a CS degree and work full-time? I worked full-time, except for in the final year, I worked 22.5 hours for the final push. That said, scheduling everything was … hard. I couldn't find a way in Canada take an entire CS degree online (except Athabasca, and I was not interested in a degree from that school). So attending classes, mostly during business hours is required. If you don't have a job with flexibility in scheduling you will use a lot of vacation time. Sleep was minimal throughout.

- What's the opportunity cost, in time/money/experience? Only you can answer that. What else is going on for you? What are you going to do with the degree when you're done?

- How likely am I to complete the degree, given that things in my life could change (opportunities, disease, motivation, depression, passion, love, children)? Again, only you can answer that. Does taking 3-4 classes a term and working 40 hours a week sound like something you can do? I would work, in one form or another, from 6am-10pm for months on end.

I would say only the first 1.5 years worth of classes was easy for someone who could program. After that things weren't really programming directly anymore. Once the higher year classes started I was able to aim my projects to things I didn't know, or things I knew (depending on how busy I was that school term and how much effort I wanted to put in to a particular class)

[miguelrochefort]

This is exactly the type of answer I'm looking for.

> I graduated at 44 and found a job immediately. Maybe not a sexy job with a ping pong table in the break room and beer on Friday, but it pays.

Before I recently quit, I had a job. The same job a CS degree holder would have (all my coworkers had CS degrees). There was even a ping pong table and beer taps on Friday. Getting a job is not what I'm worried about. Getting the flexibility to work in many roles at any company in any country is.

> I worked full-time, except for in the final year, I worked 22.5 hours for the final push. That said, scheduling everything was … hard. I couldn't find a way in Canada take an entire CS degree online (except Athabasca, and I was not interested in a degree from that school). So attending classes, mostly during business hours is required. If you don't have a job with flexibility in scheduling you will use a lot of vacation time. Sleep was minimal throughout.

I'm considering a completely online CS degree. I don't think I would be able to physically attend school, the commute alone would kill me. I've always preferred to learn things on my own, outside of class, and never attended optional lectures.

> What are you going to do with the degree when you're done?

Right now, I think I would apply to FAANG or other US tech companies. I expect that working there for 5 years (if that's even possible with a TN visa) would more than make up for the opportunity cost of going back to school. But I don't know if the plan will hold by then.

> Does taking 3-4 classes a term and working 40 hours a week sound like something you can do? I would work, in one form or another, from 6am-10pm for months on end.

This sounds like hell. I imagined that 5 classes would take closer to 25 hours a week. How much knowledge of CS did you have prior to taking these classes? What takes the most time? Are lectures long? Are there a lot of homework? Big team projects/labs? Maybe my expectations are skewed.

Congrats on finishing your degree. Your perspective is very useful. Thank you.

[ThePhysicist]

28 is not “old” by any reasonable standard, I know many people that started studying at that age and that do fine.

One thing I’d like you to consider is going to Europe for your studies, e.g. to Germany, Switzerland or one of the Skandinavien countries. There are excellent technical universities there (e.g. TU Munich, TU Delf, ETH Zürich but also many others that are easier to get into). Most of them charge only nominal tuition (in Germany 100-300 € per year) so you will save a ton of money as compared to the US. Most of them also offer programs that are entirely in English so you don’t have to learn some weird language like German ;) (would be great if you want to of course). And it will give you experience of living abroad, which can be valuable as well. Since you said you were traveling I assume you have the freedom to go and live abroad for a while, so I’d say it’s a valuable experience and a good investment.

Please be aware that a typical CS degree is not (much) about programming but a lot about math and abstractions. There are other degrees that focus specifically on software engineering and that might be a better fit for you from what you wrote.

[ascar]

adding to that: A CS degree in Germany takes regularly three years not four. So you save one year. The time you save mostly comes from a faster ramp up in the beginning and less electives in the end compared to the US. Our Master degree programs take usually 2 years and are mostly electives and research.

It's also very easy to work 20hours/week as a "working student", especially at TU Munich, because there is basically no mandatory attendance. More than 20 hours a week is not allowed due to student visa regulations, unless you get a work visa (more difficult without a degree and you need a job offer).

> Is there a shortcut to get an accredited Master's degree without getting a Bachelor's degree?

Some universities in Germany actually allow that with enough work experience and maybe a few courses as additional workload. I don't know more than that it's theoretically possible though.

[ghufran_syed]

It sounds like you are really trying to figure out what direction to go next, rather than specifically asking about a CS degree. I have been in a similar position several times in my life, and found the following two books helpful: "What color is your parachute?" by Richard Bolles and "What should I do with my life?" by Po Bronson. The first is more of a manual to work through to help you figure what you want, and where you might find it. The second is basically a bunch of true stories about people who faced the same kind of question, and what they did - it's NOT a manual on what to do,I think of it more like a "peer group" - psychologically it's helpful to see what other people did and didn't do in these situations (spoiler -there is no 'right' answer, but there are some useful principles that might help you narrow down your choices)

If at some point you do decide that doing a (CS?) degree might be useful, get in touch - I am currently studying for another degree in my 40'swhile working, with several family members doing online CS degrees while working

[ention]

In your situation, I might look to do the degree part-time while working.

What do you perceive to be the downsides of the degree from Athabasca? I only ask because here, people don't really care about the institution, unless you're going for jobs in graduate programs at the big companies.

I made the choice to go back to school to do a Bachelor's degree in CS, and graduated at 31 a couple of years ago, but I already had a couple of other unrelated degrees. I'm lucky in that I did not have to worry about the financial side of things, and don't have kids to worry about. It was an accelerated program through an Australian university, but done externally through my home country. I initially did my CS degree part-time in the evenings after work, and then went full-time for the last bit so that I could concentrate on the really difficult things - operating systems programming and the final year group project. On hindsight my degree was nowhere close to being as rigorous as I would have liked (we didn't do the calculus or crazy math that people have mentioned) but I did appreciate getting time to work on programming, having had very little experience before that. There are loads of opening for developers in my country, your situation might be different. If you're a citizen or permanent resident, as long as you have the ability to do the work, even a diploma would be sufficient, it will be dead easy to find a job. The deficiencies in my course have not been a problem yet in terms of finding a job. I don't regret my decision - I am now working full-time in a startup that does very interesting work. It pays decently, but of course nowhere close to Silicon Valley levels. I'm not at all interested in finding a job there, based on what I've learned from friends.

[ascar]

> should I study something else in which I would actually learn something useful (as opposed to learning things I already know)?

Unless you did intensively study computer science while programming, it's not something you already know. At my university programming is less than 20% of the content of the computer science degree. You won't learn a lot of practical stuff in an (academic focused) university, but the theory and grand scheme behind how software works. From assembly, over automata theory and higher math, over operating system theory to the OSI network model. Additionally you will/can study the management and organisational side of software: designing, planning, managing. You usually don't use all that stuff directly in work, but it's a valuable background for reasoning.

Maybe you studied all that on your own, then it's probably only a piece of paper that might open doors for promotions or it might not. But you most certainly haven't learned most of it while programming.

[decasteve]

I started my programming career at 17. Suffered burnout at 21. Went to university for a year but was offered a job that was too good to pass up. So I left and didn’t return to school until I was 30.

I took 2-3 classes per semester plus spring and summer courses through correspondence. I continued to work (freelance/consulting) during that time.

My degree is an Honours Math degree (no minor), but took a few upper level CS courses, linguistics, classics, and a few other electives which were all very rewarding in terms of academic experience.

I had in mind to pursue a PhD but I’ve been successfully freelancing since graduating.

It took me at least a year or two of asking the same questions you are before I finally made the decision to start taking classes again. I was in a good situation financially so that wasn’t a hurdle. In the end I felt it was just something I had to do.

[oldprogrammer2]

Beyond the cost/benefit analysis, and apart from the programming element, are you up for 3 semesters of calculus, linear algebra, and discrete math, and differential equations? Are you prepared to start calculus in your first semester (you have a working knowledge of functional algebra and trigonometry, right)? If not, you will need extra time to level up your math skills before you can advance very far, possibly stretching your time to finish out by another year or two.

[miguelrochefort]

I did most of those already back in 2011-2012, except discrete mathematics.

It's been a while since I've used algebra and trigonometry, and I suspect I would need to re-do most of these classes, but I imagine it should be easier than the first time.

[limeblack]

Start at a community college with Calculus 1 & 2. Linear Algebra(depends on the school reqs). Engineering Statistics if they offer it. And Maybe a CSC class or 2. If you can't get through those classes it likely doesn't make sense to take out additional loans. I majored in something different because of the Math requirements. Information Technology may be a better choice if you struggle with Math.

[miguelrochefort]

I already did calculus and linear algebra, before and during my first semester at University back in 2011-2012. I didn't attend any lecture or put much effort into it, and I got bad grades (although I passed). I don't remember anything about them, and I might have to do them again (I'm not sure if they're transferable).

I have enough savings to pay for university in my home province without taking any loan.

[arandr0x]

Will you want to move to California at 32? It's kinda old to be starting over in a brand new place with no friends, high cost of living and terrible traffic (as well as about zero dating prospects). I mean usually 32 is the kind of age where you care about more than money.

OTOH there are plenty of places in Canada where you can go to university in-province for not a lot of money, most of the classes are online, and Canadian employers care more about degree than US ones. (But... if you eventually want to move to the US... does that matter?)

There are ways to achieve the move to the US part without the degree part, of which the two easiest ones are probably find a job at a multinational, get transferred, apply for green card and start vacationing in the area you eventually want to live, meet a nice girl, marry her, go join her family. Both would take years but so would getting a degree, so really, the only advantage of the degree is with it you can apply to FAANG internships.

> Can I both get a CS degree and work full-time?

Yes.

> How likely am I to complete the degree, given that things in my life could change (opportunities, disease, motivation, depression, passion, love, children)?

> What's the opportunity cost, in time/money/experience?

>Should the excuses I attribute to my lack of degree be attributed to something else (mental barrier, low confidence, imposter syndrome)?

That's something only you know.

> Is there a shortcut to get an accredited Master's degree without getting a Bachelor's degree?

Not really. There are ways to get a MS degree is a different field than your BS, or to get a MS degree if your BS GPA doesn't meet the degree program requirements, but I don't know anyone who'se done it with no degree.

> Are there different career paths in which I won't have to worry as much about my lack of degree (i.e., freelancing)? Are they sustainable?

I know people who freelance and have no problem making a living doing so, including some people who have always been freelancers. It depends what your professional network looks like.

[miguelrochefort]

> Will you want to move to California at 32? It's kinda old to be starting over in a brand new place with no friends, high cost of living and terrible traffic (as well as about zero dating prospects). I mean usually 32 is the kind of age where you care about more than money.

It was extremely appealing at 21, and I still would not hesitate to do it today, but I'm not sure I will at 32. I now see it as a get-rich-quick scheme, so that I could retire earlier. I still can't believe the salaries people are earning there.

> There are ways to achieve the move to the US part without the degree part, of which the two easiest ones are probably find a job at a multinational, get transferred, apply for green card and start vacationing in the area you eventually want to live, meet a nice girl, marry her, go join her family. Both would take years but so would getting a degree, so really, the only advantage of the degree is with it you can apply to FAANG internships.

These almost seem more problematic than getting a degree.

> I know people who freelance and have no problem making a living doing so, including some people who have always been freelancers. It depends what your professional network looks like.

I've considered freelancing, but I'm not interested in marketing or sales. Working for an employer that takes care of all the paperwork seems like an overlooked luxury. A lot of people are happy to go back to a stable full-time job after freelancing for a few years.

[vldx]

Some commenters are mentioning that you can’t pursue MS w/o having BS. This is not true — it’s possible.

I’m pursuing master’s at the moment and I don’t have bachelor’s. It’s from red-brick university, part of the Russell Group. The program is online/remote and it’s suitable for working professionals. To meet the entry requirements I had to prove ~10 years of industry experience, incl. gather glowing recommendation letters from c-level execs.

@OP — I was in similar situation as you and I enrolled when I was ~29 years old. I don’t regret my decision. I can hit you up on mail if you need more details.

[miguelrochefort]

I'd love to chat with you.

I don't have 10 years of professional experience, nor glowing recommendation letters from c-level execs.

[colek42]

Graduated at 31 from a no name University. Found a job 3 months before I graduated for over 100k in the middle of nowhere in North Carolina. Now I work remotely and don't ever really worry about money. It was tough juggling life work and school, but worth every second. Just make sure you get a good internship and code as much as possible on your own. If possible try to combine existing skills with your new skill set. If you were in health care, getting a job writing software for that industry will get you much more success.

[nextos]

If you have savings to support yourself, you could try applying to some good EU schools with free tuition.

Some Scandinavian ones come to mind specializing in pretty cool stuff (e.g. formal methods) that might become trendy in the future, is intellectually rewarding and secures yourself a position in a niche.

You could also easily land a part-time tech job there while you study, but student lifestyle is pretty cheap.

[jki275]

A CS degree will open some doors for you that would have been closed without it. It will likely open up higher top end salaries eventually.

Yes, FAANGs are easier to land with a degree than without.

I got my degree and worked full time. It took me twenty years. YMMV.

No, in general you must have a BS in order to apply to any MS program that is worth anything.

[EnderMB]

When I was at university, there was one guy that came along to study sessions who was getting his degree part-time. He was already a software developer, writing embedded system software for a defence company, so he was already an established programmer. He was getting his degree in CS in order to complete his body of knowledge, and to try and open up other career avenues for him.

He'd been studying for four years already, and was in his final year of doing it part-time - working four days a week, and studying one.

To answer your questions from what happened to him:

* This guy left his job after graduating, because his department was closed, and he ended up joining a startup. I'm not sure if the CS degree helped him there or not.

* I can't speak for this guy, but the work he does now is in stuff we learned at uni, and not stuff he was doing before. In terms of FAANG, it's hard to say because a degree won't guarantee you an interview. I have a CS degree, and I've applied to each FAANG company, but haven't ever been offered an interview.

* I remember asking this, because I wanted to be a Web Developer, and he said that he found it easier to learn how before learning why, because when he learned the theory he could put it into action without confusing the subject. * No idea on opportunity cost. I think a lot of it depends on the CS curriculum you'll be following.

* I'd say so. It's why this guy said he studied for his degree part-time.

* In my experience, a lot of places that want a graduate don't particularly care what the degree is in, so it's up to you. I've worked with capable programmers with all sorts of unrelated degrees, from philosophy to medicine to art history. With that being said, I've never worked at a company with degree requirements that wouldn't interbiew an experienced developer with no degree.

* Arguably, a degree isn't relevant. If you're already a capable programmer, you shouldn't need a CS degree to continue what you're doing.

* It depends on where you are from, but it can happen. One of the guys I used to do BJJ with has a doctorate in physics (from a good university) and no bachelors degree, based on previous work experience and a prior working relationship with a professor. It seems very rare, though, so I wouldn't hinge any bets on getting a masters in CS unless you can point towards significant contributions to the field in your previous work.

[WestCoastJustin]

Flip it around. Is getting a BSc going to hurt you in any way? Opportunity loss? Debt? Missed opportunities? I'd look at it from that angle.

Biggest advantage I can think of as being a Canadian + BSc would be that you can use the TN visa provision of NAFTA (USMCA), and make 2X+ what you would in Canada (living in the States). This opens you up to working at Google/Amazon/Facebook/Apple/etc. I'm not sure where you live, but in Victoria, BC, where I live most regular tech jobs are 60-90k CAD but in the US you can easily make 120k+ USD. So, that is 2X+ with the currency conversion. But, cost of living might be more too, plus the whole work life balance thing. Money isn't everything! Sometimes it is nice to make less money, have less stress, and be able to do stuff on the weekends. I'd suggest working while going to school too (if you go that route).

Starting your own business and remotely contacting to companies in the USA could work too (without a degree). You are basically working for yourself, so a degree doesn't matter, as you are just working off your skill level. You can also charge in USD and live in Canada. The best of both worlds. You can use the "professional services" provision of NAFTA to only pay taxes in Canada. You cannot do any work in the US though. Might be worth researching if you are into that. This is high risk though as you are totally self dependant and running your own company. But, high risk / high reward.

Another option, without a degree, is you can just as easily spend 6-12 months, while working, and build an awesome on-line portfolio that would probably make you stand out more than a BSc would. This will get you jobs too. Then you will totally stand out. Obviously this is not a quick trick but can pay off huge. Plus, you'll have people offering you jobs vs you hunting for them. But, this takes time too, a long time, and needs some planning, but is well worth it. This has worked well for me but took a few years of building.

Those are the three things I have seen people do. It highly depends on your appetite for risk and your goals. So, I cannot really say what might work. You don't want to spend 4 years, plus tons of money, to be in the exact same place. So, I'd create some type of long term goal of where you want to be, and then shoot for that. If you search HN there are many threads on this topic too with good advice. Use https://hn.algolia.com/ and search for things like Degree, Bachelor, etc. I have seen at least a half dozen over the years.

[miguelrochefort]

I deeply regret not getting the degree early, mainly because of the insane salaries (and prestige) of companies like Google/Amazon/Facebook/Apple. It's closer to 3-4x the salaries I've had here. I love the US, and I would not have hesitated to work there if I had a degree.

Will that remain true in 4 years? Will getting jobs there be more difficult because of saturation/competition? Will getting jobs there be more difficult because of my age? Will the NAFTA clause still hold? Will I still want to live away from my friends/family then? What if I have a wife and kids? Will my cost/standard of living be as low as it is today?

Investing 4 years in school for opportunities that may disappear in the future seems quite risky.

The degree will also seem like a waste of time/resources if the demand for developers keeps going up, if degrees stop becoming hard requirements, if I'm not interested in managing roles, if I'm not interested in big/conservative/governmental companies, if I start a business and become self-employed.

I really can't tell which strategy is best from a regret minimization framework point of view.

I've been on HN for years, and browsed through https://hn.algolia.com/ results earlier today (not all of them). Every person has a different situation, and I don't perfectly relate to people who live in the US (where I feel opportunities are greater for those without a degree), to people who are younger, to people who truly lack CS knowledge, to people changing career, etc. I read a lot of contradicting advice, and I'm more confused than when I started.

If someone could assess each of my questions/worries, that would be most helpful. I would also love to hear whether people who were in my situation regret their decision or not.

I really don't want to come back here in 4 years, and post the same Ask HN.

[zapperdapper]

> I recently quit my job to travel and "find meaning to my life". Spoiler: I didn't.

Wherever you go, there'll you be.

> I always worry that my lack of degree will/does hurt my career

I doubt it's that holding you back.

[mk926]

I started learning CS at 24, that made me left my hometown, got a job at big city, and settled down there, even made me got a job from Oracle later which was a good job in my country.

[jason_slack]

I’m finishing a degree in Economics at 42. Follow your dreams, you owe it to yourself.

[miguelrochefort]

My dream is not to get a Bachelor's degree. I'm mostly interested in it for job security and peace of mind.

My dream is to work at Xerox PARC (although Microsoft Research or Google X seem more realistic). I'm really into Human-Computer Interaction. But I can't imagine going to school for 10 years, just to start working on interesting problems. I thought I could just do my own research lab in my apartment, but then reality struck me.

It's good to see that you did it at 42. Congratulations.