Ask HN: How should I take advantage of unlimited PTO?

[ketzo]

I'll be starting at a company soon that has an unlimited PTO policy. For context, this is a large (15k+ employee) enterprise software company that is known for having a good work-life balance.

I have seen this policy maligned often on HN ("unlimited PTO == no PTO", etc.), but from my personal observations at my internship at the company, people were able to take significant advantage of it. One of my teammates was encouraged by our manager to take a two-week vacation after we finished a release cycle that he'd put a lot of extra effort into.

For devs who work with (and like) unlimited PTO: what are the advantages? How have you utilized it, or how do you regret not using it sooner?

For managers with employees in this system: When (if ever) have you felt like you were being taken advantage of? Do you like or dislike the system, both for yourself and for your team(s)?

I'd like to make fairly frequent use of PTO, as I believe strongly in having a life outside of work and in mental recuperation, but I also really don't want to seem like a slacker. Any thoughts would be appreciated. (Aside from "go work somewhere with 4 weeks vacation" -- I'm quite excited about this job!)

[GreenJelloShot]

"Unlimited PTO" is the biggest scam ever.

1) It is a lie. It is certainly NOT "unlimited" in any way, shape or form, and everyone knows it. Can you take 10 years off? How about 1 year off? How about 6 months off? Nope. "Unlimited" is a lie. There is a limit. But now it is a "secret" limit.

2) Unlimited PTO = Limited PTO and the limit is 100% determined by your manager. If you manager likes you, your secret limit will be high. If you manager does not like you, your limit will be low or even ZERO. Unlimited PTO means a manager can just refuse to approve any of your requests and there is NOTHING you can do about it.

3) Unlimited PTO means extra confusion for everyone. Instead of knowing that you can count on 2, 3 or 4 weeks vacation, you simply never know how much time you can get. And this time can change at ANY time.

4) Unlimited PTO means unequal time off for people. Some people will get to take more time off than others. It is guaranteed to be unfair and guaranteed to be gamed. Basically, it encourages people to take time off early for every excuse (instead of saving time up). Also, it encourages lying. You want to take some time off, better to claim that your kid is sick than to be honest and say you want to go to a baseball game.

5) Unlimited PTO = no privacy. Now you have to explain and justify every time you want to take a few days off. When you have 2, 3 or 4 guaranteed weeks off, you just say "I wish to take my X weeks off at these times". You do not need to explain that you going to just lay in front of the TV and binge watch 90's shows. But with Unlimited PTO, there are no guarantees. So now your manager can demand that you justify every request. Instead of notifying, now you have to beg.

6) Unlimited time off is am employee-hostile position. Imagine if a company offered a "unlimited salary". You get paid whatever your boss wants to pay you every month. It might be zero or it might be a million bucks. Would you agree to that? No. No one would. Then WHY would you agree to an unlimited PTO?

[joshstrange]

7) Unlimited PTO = No paid out PTO

I really hate this scam. Had to push back on it at previous employer and do education for the employees who thought it was a great idea... It never ceases to amaze me how some people take what a company says at face value and don't bother to look for what their motive actually is. I saw this happen multiple times and it was always painful to watch people fall for things hook, line, and sinker.

[kilo_bravo_3]

>Then WHY would you agree to an unlimited PTO?

Because not only does my employer have unlimited PTO policy, it has a mandatory minimum PTO policy.

It also has a mandatory minimum duration PTO policy.

As an employee, I MUST take at least 20 working days off per year, and among that time off there must be AT LEAST 10 working days taken off in a row, measured Monday - Friday for two weeks.

And federal holidays don't count for those 20 working days (though they do count for the two week minimum).

If I want to take two days off to binge-watch Seinfeld, I mark Thursday and Friday as "off" in our company app and my manager swings by my office and says "How's Project-X going?" and I say "on schedule" and he taps "approve" on his phone and then we talk about how I'm just going to lay around in my boxers and watch Seinfeld for four days in a row.

Of course, he already knows that Project-X is on schedule because he's in Mattermost the same as I, he just happened to pass by on his way to the cafeteria and wanted to chat about his new OneWheel and how awesome it is.

If, in December, you have not met your quota of 20 working days off, they order you to not come in for the balance counted back from New Year's Eve, not counting Christmas Day, and that is non-negotiable. They even suspend your accounts for the last two weeks of the year if you haven't met your two week obligation.

[muzani]

Haha, unlimited salary sounds like a fun trick. You decide that month what you want to be paid. In any such company you'll end up asking much less than they're willing to pay, and get frustrated when you find that a colleague is getting away with more.

[palidanx]

I worked at 2 companies with unlimited PTO and didn't like the experiences at either company. In reality, there would be a real number management expected you not to go over.

I would take more PTO than expected and then get verbally told, "for your position, you are taking more than your peer group."

What I would do is have an upfront discussion with your manager to clear out what is within expectation. Is it 3 weeks, 4 weeks, 5 weeks?

The problem with unlimited PTO is that sometimes you can feel guilty taking more, because you aren't entitled to it unlike a set of PTO you would get at any other company.

[Aeolun]

Yeah, I think given unlimited, I’d make it clear to my manager that I expect that to mean I can take 25 days off, and possibly more if I absolutely have to. As long as that understanding is there I don’t think it’s necessarily a problem.

[codegeek]

I don't have a direct answer for you but as someone who hires for my own business, I hate unlimited vacation bullshit. It puts the pressure on the employee to decide what is reasonable and also the company gets away not paying any minimum un-used vacation time (which employees deserve).

I would have a "minimum" vacation days policy if we do use unlimited but then it defeats the purpose for employers who want to NOT pay for any un-used vacation days. Just do 4 weeks and be done with it if you can afford it.

[idunno246]

It's even worse than just putting pressure on the employee. my manager has a number of days he thinks is reasonable, his manager has another, and his manager has yet another - and at one point a minimum was higher than another's maximum.

It really isnt fair, I don't know employee who actually considers it a benefit. It's like a contract, just write it down so everyone knows what to expect.

[Someone1234]

If companies really wanted their employees to use their "unlimited PTO" then they would also include a MINIMUM usage (e.g. 4 weeks a year minimum).

The actual reason "unlimited PTO" exists is to reduce total PTO and so companies don't have to pay out unused PTO in certain states (the states were "unlimited" is coincidentally popular).

As to "how to best use it?" that's very job/manager specific.

[zapperdapper]

On your first point: In UK there is a minimum usage by law. For full-time workers that's 28 days paid leave and that includes typically 8 public holidays. Not sure if that applies in US though. I agree with you on the other two points.

[jakemal]

The company I work for has unlimited PTO and I really enjoy it. Even if I don't use significantly more than if I had a set number of days, I really appreciate having the peace of mind that comes with it. I don't have to worry about running out of days by the end of the year or rationing my days to accommodate a long future vacation.

I've had a week-long vacation planned for almost a year now that is coming up later this month. I also recently found out that my entire immediate family, who are all spread across the country, have a week period in February where we would all be able to get together for the first time in years. So I am taking another 8 day vacation three weeks after my first one. I don't think that would be possible without unlimited PTO.

I think it really depends on the company. I am sure the stories are true that companies use unlimited as a way to guilt people into not taking vacation, but it sounds like you found a place where that's not the case. As long as the company culture is there, unlimited PTO is definitely a nice perk to have.

[zapperdapper]

Yes, the peace of mind that comes with it is a good point. I do really appreciate that aspect.

[Jamwinner]

Unlimited PTO usually ends up being a confidence trick to guilt people into even less time off. If it was truly unlimited, few people would show up. If people just need to work the hours to finish the work, that is already happening and/or there is not enough work. No interpretation seems to favor the employee in the long run. This is merely my observation and opinion.

[DevX101]

Unlimited PTO is not unlimited. It's a financial sleight of hand to reduce the liability on the company's books.

[joshstrange]

Unlimited PTO... the best way to approach this IMHO is to set your own limit. Make it reasonable 15-20 days, this is depend on a number of factors only you can determine, then keep track yourself of the days you ask off for PTO. If you get pushback you have your records to show exactly how much you've taken and you can help ease some of the guilt these systems were created to make you feel.

Unlimited PTO normally results in people taking less PTO because they feel guilty or don't see their peers taking PTO and they want to be a team player. Fuck that noise.

Do good work. Make yourself take your self-created PTO time/limit. Look for another job if you hit their hidden limit and it's much lower than you would have accepted had you known (ie. after taking 10 days you start to hear BS about taking too much PTO).

[forthwall]

I work at a company that does unlimited PTO as well. I think the best way to go about it is take off two/three large breaks (2weeks+) throughout the year and then many small breaks scattered (2days). Good managers will not mind as long as you’re completing your work.

[finnthehuman]

>as long as you’re completing your work

"completing" work is as wishy-washy of a term as "unlimited" PTO.

I've been on a project for 5 years, and it's still not done. Is any forward progress "completion"? How much forward progress is worth how many days of vacation?

Is my work "complete" whenever it's released to users? Or never "complete" because the backlog has never been paid down?

Is "complete" a function of how much I get done relative to how much was expected of me in a given time period; making my unspoken limit subject to the accuracy of schedule estimation and how aggressively management schedules?

Is my work "complete" only when we have breathing room in the schedule and it's a convenient time to take vacation? Does my unlimited PTO stop in the middle of a 2 week vacation as soon as there is a sufficiently big fire?

[caseyf7]

This is good advice. Execs usually don’t notice until people are gone more than two weeks.

[unlinked_dll]

jeez, talk about this kind of stuff brings out the most reactionary people on HN.

One advantage is that it's really easy to take a day or two off without thinking about it. That was my experience, I live far from my family and unlimited PTO made it super easy to take a day off every few weeks to fly out for a visit.

Another advantage/disadvantage is that it really brings out the culture. You'll learn extremely quickly how the company values work/life balance. It's either great or terrible ime.

A huge disadvantage is that unlike veritable paid time off, if you are laid off, quit, etc, they don't have to pay you a dime.

[BillyGoatGates]

I would love to know the name of this company that gives employees 5+ weeks off, including holidays.

[zapperdapper]

I'm currently on DTO (Discretionary Time Off) and it works great. Last year I took 7 weeks paid. If I'd had a decent justification I could have taken more. Some colleagues took a lot more (like 3 months). This year I have a couple of long holidays planned so think I'll take around 10 weeks, possibly more. Only breaks longer than two weeks need to be approved by my manager.

To be legal you have to take the statutory minimum holiday or the company would be in trouble (at least in the UK), so they are quite stringent about you taking at least the statutory minimum (for full-time workers that's 28 days in UK and that includes Bank Holidays), so typically 20 days minimum excluding BHs.

The downside is if you leave the company you won't get holiday pay. For example, let's say I'm entitled to 24 days annual holiday at a non-DTO company, and then leave after 6 months, without taking holiday, I'd be entitled to 12 days pay (for my paid holiday entitlement). At a DTO company you get zilch as I understand it. I've not left yet but I think that's how it works. Something to check.

I personally think it's a great perk. Depends what your priorities are though and the above is a bit UK specific.

[jf22]

I've had the same experiences with unlimited PTO as a lot of the other commenters.

I hit the soft cap of unlimited PTO after requesting my 16th day off in a row. I wasn't denied but had to get multiple approvals and jump through some hoops.

One thing to watch out for is when people say "if your work is done, take off whenever you want".

What that means if your manager has a lot of projects in the pipeline it means your work probably won't be "done" to their satisfaction.

The deadlines and pressures people put onto whoever approves your PTO tends to change how productive they perceive you to be...

[duxup]

I'd start with a discussion with your manager about how this system works. That relationship may be the entire key. If someone decides "hey that's too much" it might be as simple as your manager telling them "naw he's good" and problem solved.

Knowing how that works (or just observing) might tell you a lot.

The last place I worked with unlimited PTO effectively worked that way. If someone inquired about what was going on and the front line manager said it was ok, nobody cared.

I too have heard of the "unlimited = no" stories but not experienced them so obviously every place is different.

[burntoutfire]

Recently, I've had an ok offer from a startup (very interesting work, but mediocre salary) that I was seriously considering. Unlimited PTO was ultimately one of the major factors which made me decide against it. I asked them during the interview if it is really unlimited - for example, is it OK if I take 5 weeks of per year? The answer was no, it's more like 2 weeks - i.e. there's clearly a limit if you ask about it. The scumminess of the arrangement made me not want to work with them.

[throw03172019]

My friend had unlimited PTO at the startup she worked at (~300 people). Her boss sat her down and told her she needs to respect the companies unlimited PTO policy after she took “too much” PTO. She quit shortly after they sent her an email about following the “unlimited” PTO policy. So yes, it’s scammy. Be careful!

[beckingz]

One of the advantages of manager turnover is that 2-3 weeks per manager looks perfectly reasonable for unlimited PTO.

[geoelectric]

Check the "highest paying companies" thread.

One of the top comments leads to a discussion of unlimited PTO. There's a long reply in there that lays out a bunch of "here's how" bullet points. Working at an unlimited PTO place, they were right on the money.

[shinryuu]

Have you got a link to the thread?

[bradyo]

If you didn't have unlimited PTO, how much would you be happy with? Tell, not ask, your manager your expectation. This is ideally done immediately upon starting. Afterwards, act like you have that amount of a vacation, and then take it.

[diehunde]

Work hard during 3-4 months, then 2-3 week vacation.