Ask HN: Help. Covid case at work; remote work is being denied. EU region.

[TYPE-ERROR]

Hello HN.

I'm working at a place where, according to a very credible and personally-detailed report, has had a known positive Covid-19 case. It was later denied. It seems pretty clear what's going on.

I'm now seeing my teammates become sick, and still it has been decided that we must not work from home, despite that being possible.

It's hard to understand why critical human resources are being put at risk.

It's hard to understand why I'm putting up with this.

It's hard to understand why I feel like I'm cannot share more details about the situation.

I really feel like I need to talk with someone about it.

Anyone else?

Thank you.

[gorbachev]

Start coughing up the hierarchy. Once you cough on someone high enough I suspect the situation will solve itself.

edit: Turning this approach 180 degrees, have the employees ask the people with power to change the policy what do they think the legal liability is in the case any of the employees or any of their family members dies?

[cafxx]

(While I think this is hilarious) I would advise against this as, by doing it intentionally, you may be breaking the law (hard to know for sure as laws differ between EU countries).

[edanm]

While humorous, let me just say that this is a horrible thing to actually do. Especially since most of the hierarchy is probably not responsible for the decision, but I wouldn't even do it to the person making the decision (though I'm strongly against the decision personally).

An eye for an eye is not moral behavior in today's world.

[TYPE-ERROR]

This is a big electronics company. Those in charge are most probably shut off in country-side mansions.

[booleandilemma]

This reminds me of a time I worked in an office with a roach problem and management refused to do anything about it - until a dead roach ended up on a executive’s desk.

[TYPE-ERROR]

The question about liability isn't that relevant here. Maybe it would be if this could be brought up to an European court.

[senectus1]

whats the bet that the executive has a "chicken pox party" mentality.... Deciding to get it out of the way in the sphere of their control and making that decision for the workers on their behalf.

[jsonbourne]

This will do.

[TYPE-ERROR]

I finally got my user off the shadow ban. It is a throw-away account. Thank you Daniel!

I realize this is a low-signal post, but I'm still here, unable to sleep, feeling utterly disrespected as a cysec professional.

A few days ago I was a valued member of the team, now upper management is using fear and intimidation to keep a semblance of normality for as long as possible: You want to go home? We won't have you back. I would walk away gladly if I could do it without affecting my team and my employer.

We have all the conditions required for secure remote work, in fact it would be a tighter environment in many ways. Apparently it's too difficult to manage the outsourced resources.

This is why we need the state of emergency declared. To keep people like those from putting more people are risk.

Is there anyone else going through something like this?

[pnw_hazor]

You are learning an important lesson the hard way.

Never be loyal to a corporation. Corporations are not loyal to you (or other employees) in spite of how it may seem sometimes. How could they be loyal? They are not human.

I first heard this from a CTO at my first dev job when he was encouraging me to come along with an upcoming merger. I said something like "well I want to be loyal to company..." he immediately cut me off and said "never be loyal to a company -- a company will not be loyal to you." (paraphrasing)

Since then, I have witnessed his assertion come true many times.

Save your loyalty for people. We would like to think that the bonds made with teammates will be shared by the company, they won't.

[japhyr]

> I would walk away gladly if I could do it without affecting my team and my employer.

If this is really the case, and you can survive without this job, you should consider walking. Your employer has demonstrated that they do not care about you or others on your team who are being pushed to continue showing up. And your employer, with this kind of approach, does not deserve any of your loyalty.

It's bad that some employers are still pushing people to show up for non-essential work. It's an entirely different level when people are showing up symptomatic, and still being pushed to show up.

Edit: I meant to add, that you'd probably be supporting your team by walking if you can. The more people who walk, the more clear it becomes that the employer is in an untenable position.

[bfung]

At this point, you should look out for yourself - why worry about affecting your employer if they’re the ones putting you at risk?

If you have enough saved up, quit and be safer. That will signal to your team and they can make their own adult choices.

If you think you have corona already, take sick leave.

[7177Y]

Contact your local authorities non-emergency number. This is an emergency, but not immediately actionable (you don't need a firetruck right at this moment). Discuss the situation with them and they will hopefully act accordingly.

Your workplace should be quarantined and sanitized, this is a major risk to public health. Best of luck.

[UncleEntity]

> Your workplace should be quarantined and sanitized, this is a major risk to public health.

Was down at "the yard" yesterday and all the supervisors were locked in their areas since some driver with a high fever wandered in and scared the hell out of them.

Went in today and they were working on sanitizing everything with bleach while all the supervisors are still locked down.

Tomorrow should be interesting...

[TYPE-ERROR]

This is actually an extremely important suggestion. I will check with authorities. Thank you.

[viraptor]

If you're not allowed to work from home, stop working. Contact your doctor and request relevant paperwork to stop work and go into isolation. (if this is possible in your country - depending on the country, "I've been in contact with a case" may be enough)

But also keep in mind that unless you hear a real confirmation, the case you know may actually be a third-party rumor, so... don't panic yet.

[iandanforth]

Don't panic, but yeah, you've been exposed if you're still in an office at this point.

[peterburkimsher]

"a very credible and personally-detailed report" isn't a medical test. Don't panic, but that doesn't make you safe.

Anecdotally, a lot of people have started coughing around me (in Auckland) since Friday. At work, with the homestay family, at church, on the bus - every group had at least one person with a dry cough. "No fever, so the doctors said it's OK."

Unfortunately, tests here in New Zealand cost 3000 NZD, and only people who have travelled recently AND show symptoms are allowed to be tested. Even then it takes hours on the phone to a helpline to join the queue. So far only about 500 people have been tested.

I found an old N95 mask in the bottom of my bag that I used for air pollution in Taiwan. I've been wearing it in public since yesterday, and in the office today. I've been going for walks down by the river to get lots of fresh air, and sunbathing to get more UV. I bought 4 bottles of tonic water today, to share with all these people around. (Yes, I know the quinine concentration is too low to matter, but things like masks are sold out and the US/Europe need them more... I feel like I have to try something).

My symptoms are barely noticeable (is that joint pain or RSI? shortness of breath or am I panicking?), but only when I started wearing a mask did other people take it seriously. The recorded cases in the country just jumped from 6 to 12 to 20 in the last few days. Exaggerate your own symptoms if you have to, instead of blaming someone else, and ask for personal permission to take sick leave. Take a week off for your wee cough.

We've just been granted permission to work from home until the end of the week. Perhaps it'll be longer.

Wash your hands, get a mask and wear it, drink tonic water and share it with everyone, try to take sick leave.

I would love to see a web app where anecdata like this could be shared on a map (checkboxes of symptoms, severity, locations, number of people in groups).

[bArray]

Hi there, I'm in NZ too.

> Unfortunately, tests here in New Zealand cost 3000 NZD,

> and only people who have travelled recently AND show

> symptoms are allowed to be tested.

So they are assuming that they don't infect people either on the plane or when they land? This seems like dangerous thinking considering that the world is currently very aware of how contagious this is.

Also are you saying that it's $3000 out of pocket for the person infected? Or is that costed to the government? I think the US could be very heavily affected as people are not wanting to get tested in fear of associated health costs.

> I would love to see a web app where anecdata like this

> could be shared on a map (checkboxes of symptoms,

> severity, locations, number of people in groups).

100% this. Like the earthquake data that is collected from reports. Could also be a good opportunity to share good and up-to-date advice about the latest best practices.

I've not got a background in web-apps of any kind, but if you want some help to throw something together let me know.

[Cass]

Can't you get your doctor to give you a note that you have to work from home for now for medical reasons? It seems that in most EU countries, your employer would be forced to respect that. If they refuse, get a sick note and stay home, there's no reason to put everyone's lives at risk by getting infected at work and spreading it through your commute.

[pezo1919]

If you think they lie or they're just not trustworthy you must play the game they started to play and lie too. Don't be a fool.

Start looking for a job asap, don't go in, play out your cards. You can say the things you want. You can say you are sick, you can say you are horrified, but you must start playing the game.

For naive people with good moral in general it's hard. You are not your environment. If you feel they are not doing the right thing accept for yourself that you can't too. If a persen attacks you on street and threatens your life and you can't escape, sometimes you must fight back. That's really sad, but true.

Be smart. Do your best. Don't be a fool.

Many similar posts/problems will come in next weeks/months.

[brandmeyer]

> Start looking for a job asap

Sorry, but with the world economy literally crashing around you, this isn't practical advice. Everyone who was hiring is going to be delaying those decisions right now.

[TYPE-ERROR]

[This comment was useful. It's now self-censured.]

Thank you.

[pjdkoch]

Lose your love for 50 euros and call a lawyer. Alternatively, contact your work or health regulator, and document the case to them the best you can.

Documentation and evidence is now power for you.

[TYPE-ERROR]

Are lawyers in Porto really that affordable? That is enticing. I'd love to talk this through just to have a non-actionable idea about the legality of this situation.

[cl42]

Your country/state/province likely has a labour board you can contact to have them get involved. Alternatively, contact an employment lawyer. There’s a good chance a labour policy or law is being broken, especially if your region is under quarantine or self-isolation guidelines.

[sanguy]

Very common in EU unfortunately. Are you in the DACH region as it seems particularly neurotic over employees in general.

Going through the same thing and the excuses to block work from home are comical.

1) It goes against GPDR policy to allow employees to have access to such data at home.

2) How do we ensure the employees are actually working on what we need them to do?

3) How do we ensure they are putting in a full work day?

4) Why should we allow working from home to social distance without knowing if they do the same in their personal time?

Several of these are actually issues they suffer with physical workers because they micro manage and are paranoid that all employees are against management.

If they would realize that if you let good people do what you hire them for you will realize most are very loyal and focused on doing the best for the company.

[sk0g]

What the hell are they thinking? I had flu symptoms a few weeks ago, and our office has transitioned to full remote till the situation calms down a bit, and we're not even in a particularly affected country!

[vinhnglx]

You need to left the company immediately, report the situation to the police and self-isolate yourself when waiting for the next step from the police. Job is not important anymore at this time.

This is not a video-game where you can restart everything when you died, this is real. You, all of us, only have one life to live.

[djtriptych]

Contact local authorities, and contact local journalists. Or even international.

[StopOFlop]

Don't know where you are in the eu but in some countries you have the right to leave work if there is imminent danger for your health which is the case here.

[odshoifsdhfs]

a) please confirm itself with the health authorities. I have heard very credible reports as well all these last weeks

b) country is more important than EU region. Each country enacted their own rules wether you can decide for yourself to work from home is there is a possibility (Portugal for example both employee and employer can do it unilaterally)

[TYPE-ERROR]

Do you have a PGP public key?

[realusername]

Where in the EU exactly? You can just stay home for medical reasons.

[anigbrowl]

Quit and name the company. Why not?

[TYPE-ERROR]

Fear of consequences and not having f-you pocket change. Isn't it enough?

[bigdict]

Police?