Ask HN: I work for AWS. How do I encourage change for Amazon warehouse workers?

[awscompassion]

Ideally without getting fired.

I've voiced some of my concerns to management but that hasn't gone anywhere. I know I'm not alone amongst my coworkers in feeling concerned for Fulfillment Center (FC, Amazon's term for their retail warehouses) employees. How can we in AWS organize and campaign for better working conditions for our FC teammates?

This is of course inspired by Tim Bray's recent departure from Amazon (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23065782). I'm a software engineer (surprise surprise) if it matters.

[0x262d]

Honestly, you have pretty little real leverage. Warehouse workers are going to have to form a union and threaten to really shut down amazon's profits, in order to defeat these profit-motivated outrages. It's always been like this. People have to self-emancipate.

To aid this you can help promote support for unionizing and other related things. But that's fairly secondary. I think using your position as an employee to call out Amazon's abuses can be a good way to direct media attention but without worker power, attention on its own doesn't actually do anything. But Amazon firing its employees has given them a lot of bad press. If it happens to you it might be a good thing politically. That does suck though, if you can't afford it be careful.

Related to all of these topics I want to plug https://www.taxamazon.net/about, which doesn't solve the issue of warehouse conditions but does help address one other externality of Amazon's relentless drive for profits at the expense of all other issues. Raising consciousness around their tax-dodging helps people realize their worker relations are terrible and vice versa, and passing this ballot initiative will do a lot of good on its own.

Edit: do get plugged in to Tech Workers’ Coalition if you aren’t. I just wanted to be sober about the challenges and opposition warehouse workers face and the necessary strategy for victory.

[slg]

I don't buy into this "they must lift themselves up by their bootstraps" narrative. It is often an easy excuse for people complicit in a situation to avoid working towards helping the more vulnerable. There is zero reason this type of action needs to originate with warehouse workers. Do you think it would be any less effective if the tech workers at Amazon organized a strike similar to the one you are suggesting the warehouse workers execute? There are numerous reasons why those tech workers are in a better position to actually strike since they have more job security, generally have more financial security, and would likely have an easier time finding a new job if Amazon retaliated.

[0x262d]

I'm starting to reassess my comment. On some level it's true, worker organization is absolutely key and there's no way around that. But it's also important to focus more on what you (the OP) can do. I think that as an Amazon employee, you have somewhat more attention and credibility in public perception, and strategically using your position to publicly criticize them and support worker organization efforts could be fruitful. But it might get you fired. Trying to build support for unionization at work is good, but, legal or not, that will get you fired if you're caught. Getting involved with Tech Workers' Coalition is good, although their actions are limited. I think the best thing you can do is get fully involved in building the broader political, working-class movement against corporate predatory behavior, which I believe is inherent to capitalism. That is part of the purpose of the Tax Amazon campaign in Seattle. If you're here and interested in speaking about that please get in touch on social media. So, get involved with working class organization (you are a member of the working class after all) is a more nuanced answer. Sorry for the initial overemphasis on class struggle fatalism.

[cfqycwz]

> Warehouse workers are going to have to form a union and threaten to really shut down amazon's profits, in order to defeat these profit-motivated outrages. It's always been like this. People have to self-emancipate.

I agree with this! However, it would be very nice if Amazon engineers were organized as well. I know CWA has an ongoing effort to organize tech workers. They're a pretty good union--still what I'd call a "business union," but one of the better ones that understands their power comes from being organized enough to shove the boss around a little.

https://www.code-cwa.org/

[_bxg1]

> without worker power, attention on its own doesn't actually do anything

I don't think this is true. With enough bad press, it starts to make a difference both on the consumer side and the hiring side. I've turned down Amazon recruiters solely based on ethics before, and I haven't held an Amazon Prime membership in years. And I know others who avoid using Amazon unless they really have no other option.

[throwlaplace]

>Honestly, you have pretty little real leverage. Warehouse workers are going to have to form a union and threaten to really shut down amazon's profits

The way that unions fought capital in the early 20th was they went on strike and remained on strike until capital conceded to demands or they were shutdown by "detective agencies" ie strike breakers. Staying on strike cost money - food, rent for strikers. National unions like the wobblies and AFL-CIO would funnel national dues to locals. Are there even really national unions anymore? Personally I would donate money to Amazon workers striking if there were a call for it even though I wouldn't be in their hypothetical union.

Edit: lol downvotes from shareholders triggered by the word "strike"

[mjayhn]

What you were supposed to do was not go work at Amazon, just like plenty of us won't work for Facebook, etc. Amazon being a terrible place to work isn't something new or foreign to us SWEs. Hell, every time they tried to interview me they'd tell me about how AWS is "run like a startup" and has very little do with the rest of the company. That's telling right there.

Don't let them have our engineering talent even if they offer you the moon (like Brays $1mil/yr). They should be fighting to repair their reputation to even be able to hire SWEs/etc but because people pop out of College and want to go make $120k (or people who only care about their income and not ethics) they have no problem keeping that boat full of new blood.

I cannot fathom making $1m as a SWE over 5 years while the massive majority of my company are treated like cannon fodder and it's well known throughout.. oh, everywhere. It's really easy to quit and sound like a hero in that situation. You're not a hero. You were still part of the problem that we've known about for a long time.

[geertj]

I've been at AWS for almost 3 years now and I don't share the negative sentiment. From what I'm seeing, in general, management tries to do the right thing. I think it's more likely that given the size of the company and the public spot light it is in, incidents that happen everywhere are given more than average attention.

Can you clarify why you see "run as a startup" as a bad thing? I'm genuinely trying to understand your perspective.

[creativecupcak3]

Recent College grad here(January, 2020): I thought I was crazy being one of the few people that tried to stay the hell away from Amazon. I've heard so many mixed reviews about their working culture. I spent six years in college and absolutely don't want a company like Amazon to make me hate myself as a programmer. Programming is very dear to my heart and I only want to use it for good.

[indymike]

I'm not trying to defend Amazon, but the picture many of us have is inaccurate (I own a recruitment marketing company and have recruited for and against Amazon over the past five years in many markets). Prior to COVID, Amazon was one of the best-paying warehouse jobs and was putting immense upward pressure on restaurant, retail and low-end construction job pay. In many markets, Amazon was paying warehouse workers $16-$17/hour where the prevailing wage was $12-$13. The working conditions story wasn't as good for Amazon, and most companies were competing with Amazon by on benefits, policy (i.e. no seasonal layoffs, late, sick, vacation, etc) or culture (we're family friendly, free cookout every day, etc...).

[missedthecue]

Fake news has really taken this Amazon thing and run with it, fanning the flames of false outrage. Disappointing to see.

[duncan_bayne]

Never underestimate the strength of anti-capitalist sentiment - it's a common thread in issues like this.

Even people who should know better, like Tim Bray, keep trotting out lines like this:

> So they're gonna get treated like crap, because capitalism.

If you think about it from the perspective of an ideological war against capitalism, certain facts (like people ignoring Amazon driving wages up) start to make more sense.

[Teamster]

You can serve as a shadow union organizer, provide organization and a plan for warehouse workers. Study what the Teamsters did https://teamster.org/content/first-teamsters-building-union 1. Organize offsite meetings for influential warehouse workers, convince them to become local union reps for each warehouse 2. Those leaders recruit lower level members to join the union and pay part of their wages into a fund used to recruit more union members and hire outside leadership (lawyers, others experienced in forming unions) 3. Quickly grow your membership while building a war chest but not actually hurting operations 4. Organize a strike that actually stops the ability for more than one critical facility to ship and receive products 5. Block access to the facility for any scabs or temporary workers that the company hires 6. Be ready and willing to negotiate with management, understand what you actually want.

[AmericanChopper]

> 5. Block access to the facility for any scabs or temporary workers that the company hires

Everything you mentioned other than this involves withdrawing or threatening to withdraw your own labor. Which is perfectly reasonable, because you have no obligation to work for an employer, and if they're not willing to meet your expectations, you don't have to continue doing so. However, if somebody else is willing to do a job that an employer is offering, you have no right at all to prevent them from entering into an arrangement. You really just become a gang at that point.

[erik_seaberg]

> Block access to the facility

They're going to have to distance themselves from mafia thug tactics if they ever want to clear their name.

[rocketpastsix]

really hope nothing about this can be tied back to you at AWS.

If you want to help, build a one page site giving the FC people all the information they need to get the ball rolling at their levels.

I think at your level, the only thing that will catch attention is a principled stand i.e. resigning and in your exit interviews make it clear why you are resigning. Tim was the start, if tons of colleagues follow him out the door, it will be noticed, which means you need to find like minded people and all resign together.

[riffic]

Become a Wobbly or look at other alternatives:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Workers_of_the_Worl...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tech_Workers_Coalition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Workers_of_Amer...

[_msw_]

Disclosure: I work at Amazon, for AWS, as a VP / Distinguished Engineer.

Even though you work at AWS, there are ways to get familiar with how fulfillment centers work, and what the working conditions are like by doing the various jobs in a two day on-site program called C2FC. It's been nearly 9 years since I last did this, and I find myself wanting to do it again. It used to be compulsory training for all L7+ employees at the company, but this has been relaxed as we have grown larger, so some people aren't aware that the program exists. I believe that it is open to all full time employees, though they are currently not holding sessions (as you can imagine COVID-19 makes this impractical).

Getting connected with the right owners can sometimes be a challenge at a place like Amazon. As you're in an engineering role, the Principal Engineering Community is a resource can connect you to other engineers inside the company that are working, hands on, on challenging problems that include how we build safe working environments for FC associates. The SDEs in the operations organization are customer obsessed, and those customers include FC associates who use the tools and technology to perform their daily work. You can consider transferring to work directly on technology that FC associates use, and directly with the associates who use them as your customer.

Raising concerns internally to the right owner, in good faith, has always been welcome in my experience at Amazon. If you aren't directly in an organization that is working on solutions, progress might not be visible to you. There are challenges where we all are not satisfied with the speed in which we are able to address them. But that does not mean that there aren't coworkers working earnestly in doing so.

If you would like to reach directly out to me, you can via email or Chime. My login is "msw". I try to keep an open door policy, as much as my schedule allows, and practice discretion in how I try to address concerns. However, I cannot promise to keep every conversation strictly confidential, as I am obligated to report probable violations of the Amazon Code of Conduct and Ethics [1] in my position (including any discrimination, harassment, or retaliation of any reports of misconduct or concerns that are made in good faith by an employee).

[1] https://ir.aboutamazon.com/corporate-governance/documents-an...

[leakybit]

> However, I cannot promise to keep every conversation strictly confidential, as I am obligated to report probable violations of the Amazon Code of Conduct and Ethics [1] in my position (including any discrimination, harassment, or retaliation of any reports of misconduct or concerns that are made in good faith by an employee).

narc spotted

[jerome-jh]

> It's been nearly 9 years since I last did this [...]. It used to be compulsory training for all L7+

At least you are being honest you know nothing to the issue, as most engineers at Amazon.

> engineers inside the company that are working, hands on, on challenging problems that include how we build safe working environments for FC associates.

Have you thought FC associates may have an opinion on how their problems are to be solved?

> FC associates who use the tools and technology to perform their daily work

This is not a technological problem: this is addressing fears people have for their health (no matter what you think about those fears), with concrete and simple actions that are mostly common sense (social distancing everywhere in the premises and protective gear). This failed PR speech clearly shows how far you and Amazon are to understand the issue.

[rickyplouis]

As already repeated here, unionize or find someone with the leadership capable of leading one. As an individual you may not have much power, but a group of AWS engineers collectively unionizing and protesting within the company is a powerful force to be reckoned with.

[specialist]

Union organizer Jane McAlevey recently did some webinars.

https://janemcalevey.com/speaking-engagement/organizing-for-...

https://janemcalevey.com

If you find recordings, or future events, please share.

My intro to McAlevey was this interview:

A master class in organizing https://www.vox.com/podcasts/2020/3/17/21182149/jane-mcaleve...

I did the Camp Wellstone general purpose organizer training ages ago. It was superior. https://www.wellstone.org

--

Meta:

The book The Logic of Collective Action transformed my thinking about unions, orgs, work, etc.

TL;DR: What to do about defectors, a la game theory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Logic_of_Collective_Action

Wish I'd read this book ages ago.

[_bxg1]

I think the only way to change Amazon's behavior is to hit them where it hurts: their bottom line. Right now these practices continue to be profitable - there are no consequences - and even among other giant corporations, Amazon stands out as worshipping profits at all other costs. I'm confident that no amount of internal advocation/culture-shifting will change that. The incentives have to be realigned.

So what to do in your position?

You could quit and encourage others to do so. However, a lot of people would have to quit over this issue for it to start registering on management's radar, so that might not be very effective.

The other major option I think is whistleblowing/bringing attention to the issue/garnering bad press for the company. This is what Tim Bray did, but there are other ways of going about it. You could organize a protest along with your coworkers, for example. However, there's probably nothing you can do that wouldn't expose you to risk. And Amazon has shown how it deals with dissenters.

What I would do personally is start looking for another job, and once I have a contract signed, then do something bridge-burning like organizing a protest or writing a blog post or whatever.

[rootusrootus]

> You could quit and encourage others to do so. However, a lot of people would have to quit over this issue for it to start registering on management's radar, so that might not be very effective.

A few months ago I was invited to an AWS recruiting event. For kicks, I accepted and went to listen to their spiel. There were quite a lot of people there. I'd say that for every software engineer at Amazon who quits in protest, there are 100x that waiting to take their old job. And with the market downturn we're experiencing right now, it'll only get worse. We have less leverage now than we've had in years.

[Ashy]

Also whistleblowing generally means you have some sort of new information to share.

“Amazon’s warehouse conditions are slightly worse than industry average, says software developer who has never been to a warehouse” is hardly going to hit the news!

Plus the way Amazon is structured, the fulfilment division will be almost entirely separate from AWS. I doubt you leaving will even get mentioned to someone who has influence over FC working conditions.

[gremlinsinc]

Why not create a mobile app to allow all amazon workers to communicate and organize anonymously.

Could create an amazon-whistleblower subreddit, where people can post and shame managers on reddit, though might break the doxxing rules of reddit. So maybe create your own platform and create subs for different groups w/in amazon.

I'd do it all anonymously or get someone else to do it for you in their name who has no connections to you...

I'm actually wanting to create a platform like this...if I had time/money to do so. Think something like talkyard closer to reddit though w/ nested sub reddits... so you could have like a reddit for Farm Animals and under it Farm Animals > Goats, Farm Animals > Cows, and Farm Animals would show all posts from Farm Animals, Goats, and Cows..and even Goats > Baby Goats.

The goal is to use it for managing unions actually, allowing thought on issues of governance, question/answers, suggestions, and other 'types' of content blocks but I'm one dev, and not the best on frontend tech, though I'm full-stack/vue I always get caught up w/ the minute details.

[zacharycohn]

This situation is not a technology problem.

[wgx]

Don’t host it on AWS, though.

[throwlaplace]

>Why not create a mobile app to allow all amazon workers to communicate and organize anonymously.

Isn't it ironic that the internet, which should've been a boon to labor organization, has been quite the opposite.

[sdinsn]

> where people can post and shame managers on reddit

How will this help at all?

[qntty]

I'm inclined to say that you're better off finding ways to organize outside of the context of work. Big corporations aren't going to change until there's an organized worker's movement in the US that can pressure the government to pass laws. Pressuring a single corporation to (appear to) change their policies is a losing game. You don't have to be as ambitious as trying to affect national politics, but maybe get involved in political activism in your city.

[jakelazaroff]

I disagree with this. Your 9–5 spent powering the machine that mistreats these workers probably vastly outweighs whatever wins you're able to eke out on nights and weekends. See also "Ethics can't be a side hustle" [0]

[0] https://deardesignstudent.com/ethics-cant-be-a-side-hustle-b...

[kitotik]

Agree that organization is probably the biggest impact.

Perhaps start by anonymously raising awareness and rallying fellow Amazon employees via public blogs, social etc.

[joecot]

As an AWS employee I doubt there's a ton you can do to influence Amazon's physical product side. What you could do is try to influence AWS to stop being the backbone for ICE and DHS's extremely cruel deportation policies. Since I went to an AWS Summit in NYC and walked through protesters shouting "Cut ties with ICE"[1] I've done my best to divest myself from AWS solutions, though it's slow going. Get AWS more employees to stand up to AWS over ICE and DHS.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/07/12/no-tech-i...

[all_blue_chucks]

Do you refuse to support all businesses that sell to DHS abd CBP?

[rajacombinator]

Right because Azure or [shitty tech contractor co owned by Senator’s favorite donor] won’t eagerly step up to fill that void. Maybe pg should do a “submarine” style essay on how politics works... (hint: follow the money.)

[barkingcat]

Unionize! Anyone can join/form a union, and I think in the US it's illegal to fire you because you are involved in a union.

[mtnGoat]

i think what Tim Bray did was best. As an engineer there you are a resource that is enabling this machine. The best way to stop the machine and get noticed is to stop output.

Until AWS realizes their refusal to take action will erode both their bottom line and their talent pool, nothing will change.

change needs leaders!

[fareesh]

Amazon is not cruel because of evil in someone's heart that manifests itself in the form of intentionally creating harsh workplace conditions. It is a situation arising out of the dilemma of profits vs employee welfare in the context of difficult circumstances.

Most folks here will probably suggest some kind of antagonistic approach like unionizing, etc. but I think it is a better approach to try and figure out a profitable way to have employee welfare in these circumstances.

You can assign some monetary figure to the current situation by factoring the PR, the escalating tension and perhaps an inevitable revolt. See if that money can be spent in a way that can create a long-lasting operations improvement that makes the employees' jobs easier and adds layers of operational efficiency or redundancy.

To do that you'd have to dive deep into the specifics of the situation and understand the motivations of all the competing interests at play, with the goal of coming up with a solution that makes everyone a little happier. I saw a few comments here that talked about going and volunteering at the warehouse to understand things better. That would be a great start.

[SkyMarshal]

Taking care of employees needs to start with the business continuity planning department [1]. Usually either in Operations or Finance. Find them and talk to them. Ideally they should already be doing it. Disruptions to fulfillment due to outbreaks and mass sickness should a priority for them. And Amazon of all orgs has the ability to supply it's workers with PPE (they're already reserving high-quality PPE on their site for medical and essential workers).

Worst case scenario is they've decided it's cheaper to risk an outbreak in their fulfillment centers and just fire the sick employees and hire replacements from among the ~30million newly jobless, even accounting for the expense of resulting lawsuits. If that's the case, not much you can do besides quit or put together a class action lawsuit (or join one of the existing ones).

But if that's not the case, then maybe you'll learn something useful from them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_continuity_planning

[_jal]

Attempting to negotiate with Ops or Finance at this stage is doomed. They have made their position clear; it is time to counteroffer.

A union is what you want here, that can credibly threaten real pain. Depending on how that needs to be communicated, after the people with the purse strings take you seriously, then you sit down to talk.

[op03]

What you can get done in large orgs depends fully on your network. Without a network you don't have influence.

All the people with influence in the org can be ranked in importance by how large their networks are, and how strong their links with others are within those networks.

So start building a network or find someone who does it well and help them. The kind of people who can pull stuff off are influential in one large group or have a connect with many small group. So find them or learn how to be them. It takes __time__ and lot of __work__.

People like to believe there is some quick shortcut to gaining and exerting influence. Understandable because these days networks can spontaneously emerge with just a single post or pic or tweet going viral. But these spontaneous forming networks are ephemeral. They can loose their structure and integrity as quickly as they gain them. The powers that be know this and just have to buy time till it happens.

So there are no shortcuts. Problems like the one you want to solve will keep showing up. This is not the first time or last time you are going to encounter this stuff. But if you want to influence outcomes, you have to do the work of building your network.

Just like building skills, connections, resources to fix software issues. If you haven't built those up over time you can't just show up and say I just wish I could do something about this bug.

And last point, as you build up influence pick small bugs you know you and your group can fix first. Prove to yourself and the group you can get it done. Only then pick more complex bugs.

People who pick the complex stuff first get stuck in a trap. With complex stuff there is always someone else to blame, and that takes focus away from whether you and your group have built up enough skill to be working on the bug in the first place.

[ThePhysicist]

I assume you're in the US? If you were in Europe (e.g. France or Germany) I would recommend to join a worker union, as they have larger leverage against companies and can (often) protect you against direct retaliation (though I've heard that union members will be "shadowbanned" from rising too high in most organizations).

Here in Germany Amazon fights vigorously against further unionization in its warehouses, I think that's a good indication that they're actually concerned about the union and see them as a threat (which is good).

I'm not very familiar with the union situation in the US but from my limited knowledge it seems they are less strong there, which really is a shame. Maybe you can donate some money to one though and support them so they can be more effective in their fight? Here in Europe most unions are not very tech-savvy so they are really happy to get help from people that are good with technology. Good luck!

[baron816]

You want to do the right thing, and that’s commendable, but you have to recognize that you may not have enough information, particularly as a virtual outsider, to force your own management decisions in this case. It may seem like Amazon is being greedy here, but they creating many jobs that otherwise wouldn’t exist for people who live on the margins of the economy. And by driving down costs, they’re driving down prices. That may not matter too much for you, but it matters a lot to most people.

Look, there could be adverse effect from what you’re trying to do. The going narrative is that Amazon is evil and is just abusing it’s workforce. I doubt work is great in a FC, but there are plenty of worse jobs out there that don’t get as much attention. And just imagine what it’s like working in most other parts in the work. For many people around there world, a FC job would be a dream.

[cwkoss]

(Probably a dangerous idea and don't suggest you actually do this, but if I was to put on my black hat...)

I think the most impactful thing you can do is try to harm productivity by wasting engineering time and resources.

Anonymously post a manifesto about how AWS employees are organizing to maliciously waste time, introduce bugs into the AWS codebase and otherwise cause downtime and degradation of services because of FC issues. Bring it to as many managers as would be inconspicuous saying, "Hey, it looks like some coworkers are trying to damage the business and waste time because of FC issues, thought this should be on your radar." - begin sowing distrust. Use your inside knowledge to make the threat appear credible, but coming from a different team. Say they are planning to:

Report bugs introduced by your most talented coworkers as potential acts of malicious sabotage or cybersecurity threats. Report and escalate every minor security policy violation you see to the highest level possible - over-applying policies in places where there is ambiguity but it is not technically necessary. Ignore the errors of and speak highly of coworkers that are ineffective and/or make many errors. Start pedantic-but-seemingly-reasonable arguments in code reviews. Accuse other coworkers raising valid concerns of being pedantic, unreasonable, impractical, yagni, yak shaving etc. Try to get people to hold unnecessary meetings on issues that don't require one - ideally where you don't have to attend.

You don't have to actually do any of these things, just act concerned and warn coworkers and managers to keep an eye out for these malicious behaviors. If you could convince management that 2% of their AWS workforce was attempting to engage in these behaviors, it would create a culture of distrust that would waste huge amounts of resources tracking down false leads and dealing with unfounded accusations - and the existence of the meme in the culture would likely inspire some jaded engineers to actually engage in some of these behaviors without direct coordination.

[nickff]

This all seems like fraud. IANAL but this is potentially criminal activity.