Ask HN: I'm considering leaving a startup to look for big-company jobs (really).
102 points| throwaway4921 | 15 years ago | reply
I've decided to leave a startup in which I was a founder, although the partnership was always a bit unequal (I'm the youngest and don't have any contacts to potential customers or VCs) and our CEO often takes the attitude of it being a one-man show (i.e. he tends to get "set" in decisions without appeal, he makes shitty comments if we take a long lunch, and we deal with 2-4 status checks per day). I've been treated enough like an employee that my motivation has crashed and I essentially am "just an employee" at this point. I don't have a sense of authorship over my work. At which point, why am I continuing to work for low pay? If the major benefit of being at a startup is autonomy, and I don't have that, then what the fuck am I doing?
It's been almost 3 years, and we haven't failed, but we haven't launched or secured funding yet and "just around the corner" syndrome has been ongoing ever since I started. I don't think our CEO would lie, but I can't trust his perception that things are "just about to heat up" because he's been wrong on that matter for so long.
I don't think, for the record, that our lack of success (to this point) is the CEO's fault, and it's definitely not mine: I'm just a developer. I'd prefer to leave details out, but we expended a lot of energy chasing features for customers who flaked on us, or that would/might appeal to VCs, and hence we are at Year 3 and have a lot of cool code but no minimum viable product.
I feel a bit disloyal and selfish for considering quitting, but I also feel like it's what I need to do. It's my career and I need to be selfish.
I also know that established, large companies aren't held in high regard here and I share that prejudice. On the other hand, I think large-company jobs, even if they don't lead to nine-figure exits, can turn out well. My view of large company jobs is this: sure, the default is to get bad projects and not learn much, in which case one leaves after 8-24 months for greener pastures; but they're great if someone powerful taps you as protege, favors you in project allocation, and makes you a "made man" (or "made woman") in the company. In other words, "startup" and "big company" are just two games with good and bad possible outcomes, with more variance in the startup scenario and, in both, with the "good" outcome being somewhat rare (1/5) and the "bad" being the norm. The career game is just about spinning the wheel, repeatedly, until you actually win. And I think it's time for another spin.
The question: what does leaving a startup-- one that a future employer won't have heard of-- do for (or to) one's career? Is it right for me to expect "career credit" for the 3 years I spent? Or am I fucked in that regard? Strategically, what should I be doing to maximize my chances of getting a decent big-company job? Also, what is the programmer job market like? When I last looked around (2008) it was horrendous. Has it improved?
[+] [-] dexen|15 years ago|reply
The overall experience is that it's hard to foresee what workplace factors are important to you. Perhaps the ones you take for granted, but won't be at the other place.
After leaving the startup, I had high hopes for better organized workplace at larger company. Boy, I was wrong.
Untill I took a goot root at the large company, I never imagined programmers and managers could create so many, countless even, artificial problems. Every tool in our toolbox was inadequate, but changing that was next to impossible (decisions taken at the uppermost level). Most people exhibited the ``don't touch it if it works'' attitude that drove me almost crazy. The software would pass the tests but a lot of weirdness was swept under the proverbial rug with copious amounts of special-cased code. Software delivery took months. We were implementing features in an ungainly way, and had no way of reporting a much better implementation of very similar feature was possible on this hardware. The list goes on...
Now I'm happy at a 60 strong company. We aren't a software shop, but a small dev team builds software for internal use, marketing purposes and for our co-operants. We iterate quickly and deliver features in between 3 hours and 3 weeks. Every person in team has vertical responsibility -- oversees all steps of development of his feature. We are in touch with users (both internal and external ones) and work with them closely (that turned out to be an important factor to me I never appreciated before -- I thought I'm a lone wolf, turns out it's not the case).
But the best thing for me: people genuinely like using my software. Feels great! :-)
[+] [-] ct|15 years ago|reply
Each day spent without releasing an MVP is a day of lost opportunity that could've been spent elsewhere.
A large company isn't necessarily a bad thing either as it'll help you accumulate savings in your early years (which are the most important years to accumulate savings so you can put it to work generating interest, capital gains, etc. so that the power of compounding works passively for you). There's some chart out there somewhere comparing savings compounded early on vs. someone that started later and the difference when you retire is huge.
Plus sometimes you learn alot about how big companies processes work, how they make purchases, contacts, etc. that will help you later on in life if you do intend to go back to a startup world or start your own.
Good luck!
[+] [-] kstenerud|15 years ago|reply
2. You need to take stock of what you've done these past 3 years. How are you different today from when you started? THAT is your "career credit", and you need to figure out how to communicate that to a big company. You probably have a ton of management skills (project management, people management, time management, etc). Big companies like that.
3. There's NOTHING wrong with going to work for a big company. Big company = stability, and after a long roller coaster ride with daily uncertainty, that can be appealing. You can always start over if it turns out you're stuck with the entrepreneurial bug ;-)
The key to being an entrepreneur is failing fast, right? You're 3 years in and haven't launched. Why? Do you know what your customers want? Because once you build what they actually want, no matter how crappy your first launch (within reason), you'll have the opposite problem of not being able to retain enough talent to keep up with their demands. You'll be constantly inundated with emails to the effect of "Yeah I really like your product, but it'd be so much better if it did X..." Failing is not just the CEO's decision; it's EVERYBODY'S decision. YOU are an entrepreneur, too. Use your spidey sense!
And make sure you're honest about it when you talk to your CEO. If you can't come to common ground, that's too bad, but if you CAN, you might turn this around yet.
Also: Read up on Founder's Syndrome if you haven't yet: http://managementhelp.org/misc/founders.htm
Edit: And if you're an Android or iPhone developer who's interested in education and games and lives in the bay area, forget everything I just said. Your company is beyond help and you should come work with us ;-)
[+] [-] throwaway4921|15 years ago|reply
Who is "us"?
I'm in New York and wouldn't leave except for a really great job, but I meet at least some of that bill. I'm also not available for at least 2-3 months. But I would love to talk to you even if it doesn't lead to anything. Care to take this offline? [email protected]
[+] [-] originalgeek|15 years ago|reply
I would not rule out other, perhaps funded startups, during your job search. You won't get as big a piece of the action as a founder, but that may be irrelevant, depending on where you land.
On the other hand, being an entrepreneur is not for everyone. You seem to deeply desire autonomy. The are two truths about autonomy. First, one is never fully autonomous, there are always customers that will hold you accountable. Second, autonomy has it's price. The most successful entrepreneurs usually have a long stream of failures in their wake. It's about taking and applying the lessons from the failures, redoubling efforts, sometimes living an austere lifestyle while figuring out how to keep the bills paid, and trying again. Like I said, it's not for everyone. I have many times considered leaving my venture for the stability of a steady paycheck at a "regular" job. I would be much less concerned about the future for my family and children. But I know that choice would be a choice to accept a mediocre vision for my children, cutting off access to the best toys/learning tools, schools, etc. and I want better than that for them. I believe the same mediocrity would ripple through my career path as well. That pressure has caused me to apply the past lessons, and take risks, some of which are paying off.
The bottom line, reward comes with risk. At a corporate job, the big wigs and shareholders are taking most of the risk, so they get most of the reward.
Your CEO, from the limited information you have presented, sounds perhaps like he is more charismatic than he is in possession of the skills necessary to steer your venture toward profitability. If he has time to check in on all the guys 2-4 times a day, it sounds to me like he has run out of ideas or has no real sense of direction for doing what is needed, securing customers or funding, or just choosing a vision for a product and keeping the lid on the feature set until v1.0 is achieved. I am also wondering what kind of legal agreements you have in writing for your startup. He sounds like he is setting himself up to be the lone founder, claim the lion's share of the spoils, and screw you and the other co-founders.
[+] [-] trevelyan|15 years ago|reply
If you really have the attitude "it's not my fault... I'm just a developer" then you should look for a job at a larger company where work processes are institutionalized. And if you get the temptation to do startup life again start your own thing on the side WITHOUT a co-founder so you don't have any temptation to fall into this mindset again.
Without assigning fault, it isn't good that you're abdicating the responsibility to define the business and get customers, and then balking when your partner makes demands. You've settled into a subordinate position and your post basically reads as if you want to switch to another alpha male since this one doesn't seem capable of driving growth.
I don't mean this to sound critical, but life doesn't work this way, or at least it never has for me and most of the people I know. When you start a business you have to do almost everything (if only because most other people can't). So - sure - work somewhere insulated from the market to support yourself and and force yourself to be more entrepreneurial by starting a side business.
[+] [-] throwaway4921|15 years ago|reply
I have settled into "just a developer" mindset, because every time I raise issues, I lose. I pointed out things that were screwed up a long time ago, and they never changed. I guess, subconsciously, I've just accepted that I'm not an alpha male, at least not yet. I'd love to be wrong on that, but I've felt "beta" for more than a year.
[+] [-] kevin_morrill|15 years ago|reply
Fortunately, I didn't have to ever live through this first-hand. And that was by far my favorite aspect of working at a big company, I knew that I was working on something that tens of millions of people would use, and it would be a significant part of their lives.
Go for it! There's plenty you'll learn and you can get financially rewarded a lot more than many startups.
[+] [-] jrockway|15 years ago|reply
Remember, as a programmer: they need you more than you need them. There are plenty of other places to work.
[+] [-] mirkules|15 years ago|reply
On the flipside, upper management is usually not a good place for (ex-)developers (which means less money). Maybe it's just my perception of things, but it seems like you already have to be a part of the upper management club to join the upper management club, if that makes sense.
Another bad point is you have to deal with people that you will never be sure how they even got a job. This can be very frustrating at times because sometimes these people can hold a position of power, and you just have to learn to say "yes sir" in the face of an obviously-bad decision -- in fact, you may be experiencing this right now.
Finally, you there can be a huge amount of bureaucracy that you have to deal with and this can be frustrating if you're the type that just wants to get stuff done.
After joining corporate, you might not want to join a startup because your job is "cushy" and you don't want to take on that much risk. You will be "comfortable." And if you're ok with that, I say go for it, it's not so bad as everyone here thinks it is :)
[+] [-] Contractor69|15 years ago|reply
BTW, at 3 years in, you guys aren't "startup"-ing anything. You're playing around at best. Time to get out and get some experience.
[+] [-] jackfoxy|15 years ago|reply
The right big company job can be fulfilling and good for your career. Like any other career choice, it has to be evaluated on its own merits.
[+] [-] throwaway4921|15 years ago|reply
Thank you. It's a bit much. I've observed that it leads to the micromanagement death spiral: status checking leads to low productivity leads to a further sense (on the manager's part) of the need for status checks. Too high a ping frequency leads to a work environment that's about "beating" the checks, which is shitty going both ways, an awful way to work (from an employee's perspective) and a terrible work ethic (from a manager's viewpoint). If you manage people like children, they either become children or get out.
I really let myself slide, staying out of a sense of loyalty, even though the negatives turned me from an A-player to a B-player to now a middle C. I want to be an A-player again. If that means changing jobs, so be it. The nice thing about this job search (as opposed to others) is that I have a job and no urgency.
I really enjoyed this job for the first 18 months, though. For all the negatives, it was fucking fun as hell at first, even though I was living on very little money. Then we had a panic point when we discovered how terrible our first technical hire did his part, and how much work that put between us and a launch. (No one had, to that point, audited his code. Ever. The guy is very smart and has been programming for 10+ years so no one, myself included, saw the need. Lesson learned: a programmer can be smart as hell and have years of experience and still be bad in his specific role. Trust but verify.) I disagreed with the CEO on how to manage this awful code (he wanted to use it and put me into kludge/workaround hell, I wanted to rewrite) and lost, so I dropped to a 9-to-5er because I was pissed about his decision, and then the insanely-frequent status checks came.
[+] [-] code|15 years ago|reply
Given your low reserves and being unable to join another startup because of that, I don't see an issue with joining a company that can payroll you till you're able to pursue another startup idea down the road. You should be able to work on something on the side. I actually don't share the sentiment that working at a big company is bad (or as you say, not held in high regard). Definitions of startups are skewed. Technically Facebook is a startup, yet I look at them like they're a big company. It really depends. I think there's value in being at a big company as well. Some of my best business lessons were from regular jobs working at some bigCo prior to building a startup.
In regards to your career credit... you should have been vested for stocks on a typical four year vesting schedule where if you've been there for three years, you should have vested 3/4th of your stocks already. If you were an employee, and had stock options, that's different. You would need to check.
As a developer, assuming you're good, the market is wide open.
PS As a side note, if you're ever interested in joining another startup, I am looking for a cofounder (made a post on here earlier).
[+] [-] throwaway4921|15 years ago|reply
On a personal level, I like our CEO a lot. He's really smart and one hell of a great guy but he wants to hold the power/control in his hands as much as possible-- a "benevolent dictatorship" of sorts. I also think he has a great vision and would be excellent in a lot of contexts.
My issue, personally, is that I am doing this to get to a position of high autonomy-- and that may never happen, I'm coming to realize. I figure that if I work to get rich, I'll probably be miserable and might fail and, even if I succeed, won't be for the better for it (though if I have kids, they will be). Or I can work toward autonomy and enjoyment, maybe get rich and maybe not, but at least have the rare privilege of actually enjoying going to work. I'm doing the startup because, if it pans out, I'll have a really cool job and lots of autonomy. Maybe. But if the CEO decides I'm "just a developer" and I end up answering to some hired-gun VP, then I'll have no choice but to quit and, if my equity doesn't do well, years of my life will have been lost.
There's a certain natural distrust I have of business people. Most of them don't mean to do any harm, but they waste others' time and ruin lives with their overconfident promises and their willingness to trample others' interests if they see it as the profitable thing to do. On the other hand, a dismal realist like me, one who acknowledges that failure is possible, can't inspire people in the way profound promises can, now can he?
three years and still no launch is an insane amount of time for a startup. Regardless of what the reason may have been, it should definitely not have taken that long.
I'm not sure how I feel about that one. First of all, there were definite (but forgivable IMO) time-eating mistakes we made in the process, and our first technical hire is brilliant but was a really bad choice for the first programmer, and we're still paying that down. As for time-to-launch, I think there are a lot of "social" startups that can be hacked together in a few weeks, but deep technology takes longer. Maybe not 3 years, but definitely 12 to 18 months.
As a developer, assuming you're good, the market is wide open.
I think I'm both too good and not good enough. "Too good" in the sense that I die a little bit when I have to use languages like Java instead of languages like Haskell or at least Python. "Not good enough" in the sense that I didn't become a programmer until age 24 and, despite natural talent, I feel like I have a lot of catching up to do. There's so much in software that I've never touched; it was only a few months ago that I learned HTTP and REST.
PS As a side note, if you're ever interested in joining another startup, I am looking for a cofounder (made a post on here earlier).
Thanks. I'll look at it. I'm actually not looking to move until mid-summer. Given that this is a tiny company, I'm more inclined to give 2-3 months' notice than the standard 2 weeks.
[+] [-] drndown2007|15 years ago|reply
Happy side note: 10 years later I'm running my own startup (only founder) and it's great. However, working in big companies between the two was definitely helpful.
[+] [-] russell|15 years ago|reply
Surprisingly, I've found that the frequency of releases is a good indicator of how happy I'll be. A release every week or two is very comfortable without huge pressure. Releases every few months are hell. Death marches, endless requirements documents, way too much process, lack of tools, cant get something because it wasnt budgeted last year. You get the picture.
[+] [-] yurylifshits|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stanleydrew|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway4921|15 years ago|reply
I have nothing against working for a funded startup at this point.
[+] [-] bx_lr|15 years ago|reply
I was thinking about quitting for a long time, but didn't do so. I felt loyalty, I was green, I was the developer guy, I didn't really know how businesses are created, yadda, yadda. At the same time I felt that things were not right, we were not going to the right direction.
After some years I decided to quit. Being broke was the last straw. I was also becoming toxic, a hostage, I had to quit to save myself and the start-up.
It was a bit hard to find a corporate job, because I didn't develop any good connections to the industry during my start-up time. Eventually I landed a job in a big company. It wasn't the best of jobs, but got me started in my current career. After two years I got a call from a manager that quit from that company. That's how I got my next corporate job. Then after three years, the same manager called me again and I got my current corporate job. And now I called that manager and some other ex-colleagues to offer job opportunities. You get the picture.
In hindsight quitting was the best decision I ever made. Two years after I left the start-up lost funding and went bust. Steady income improved my life significantly, I paid off debts, started saving, travelled, had real vacations. Almost all the stress and pain in my life was gone.
The only thing I regret is that I didn't quit earlier. I didn't believe in the start-up, but I kept hanging around, I was wasting my time. Since this experience I have made the decision to trust my gut feelings. If I feel something is wrong, I'll trust myself. So far this has served me well. I keep large savings. The idea is that if I ever need to make a jump to the void, then I'm able to do it.
My advice based on my own experiences:
- If you are finished, get out, because you are wasting your time and potentially other people's time.
- To maximize your chances to get a job in a big company look for a good match. When I quit I applied to all sorts of interesting jobs, but never got a reply. I did graphics programming, and unsurprisingly I was eventually hired by a company that desperately needed a graphics programmer.
[+] [-] elliottcarlson|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zbruhnke|15 years ago|reply
I would say you are a great fit for some well funded companies that are still considered "startups" i.e. Twilio, Airbnb , HipMunk, etc. judging from your comments and without seeing your resume.
I am rare in the sense that I have never actually looked for a job since I have always had my own ideas for projects or startups that I have always decided to pursue. But I can tell you the one thing I see most often when I am looking around is that almost everyone hiring is looking for a 4 year degree (since I am a dropout maybe thats why I usually dont look/apply for jobs) but if you have finished your degree I am sure you'll do fine.
Personally I was not even going to school for programming I started doing it in middle school for a hobby and it progressed from there, I sold a software company in my junior year of college and never looked back, even still I am not sure many companies would hire me because of my lack of a degree, so that is something else to consider as well.
I dont think you should at all feel selfish for considering your future or desiring to be able to save money again, at the end of the day if you are not happy you are not putting your all into the product and the MVP probably will never be as good today as it would have been if you had put it out 3 years ago with a fresher vision and lots of drive.
I'd say to follow your gut, seems to me most peoples first instinct is almost always their best.
Good luck with everything!
[+] [-] codelust|15 years ago|reply
Career credit: Depends entirely on what you have done at the start up and how it fits with the target company/role.
The answers aside, life decisions are not popularity contests. You need to do what makes most sense for you and most importantly, what sits right with you. Outstanding HN karma does not pay anyone's bills :)
Early stage companies are much like relationships, they don't always work out. You need to know where the invisible line that demarcates your being good for the company and being bad for it lies. Sometimes, the propensity of things/people you love and care for the most to cause you more harm than even your worst enemy is incredible. Stay on the right side of the line.
Not everyone will like you all the time, you can't do everything right all the time, nor will good fortune follow you all the time. When it is bad, lie low, survive, find your way out. When it is good, pay it forward and make up for the bad you have done.
Good luck :)
[+] [-] kazuya|15 years ago|reply
We started it aiming to be a big fish in a tiny pond (software for embedded wireless devices, niche market, yes). But, as an expected result for a project without well-defined goals, we weren't able to build any working software. While we were at it we made money with contract jobs and that reduced time to work on the project furthermore as we were self-funded and it wasn't enough to feed us for more than six months.
To make it worse, one of the founding member, who is a specialist about digital signal processing and we couldn't go without, was considering pursuing academic research.
After plodding through that muddy state for almost five years, I had accumulated enough fatigue and eventually we decided to dissolve it.
Other members had found their own way and I found a job at a big company. Maybe I was fortunate, because it's quite difficult for a thirty-some with somewhat messy job records to find a job at an established company, esp. in Japan. Or maybe not, because my experience and skill set were considered versatile particularly in embedded systems industry.
As others says, I thought of it as bartering freedom with stability. That is partly true, but it wasn't that bad. Among others, it's a definitely invaluable experience to make software of a hardware product that are to be sold in thousand millions. That is what I never do in a small startup.
So mine is one example favoring your move, whatever your motivation is. I believe many big companies think your 3 years at a startup a big plus. Why? Because big companies are full of people without that experience, often only top execs have it, but they sometimes have to start new to survive.
As for maximizing your chances of getting a job at a big co, it is critical to understand and clearly state why you failed. I'm sure they will ask about it if they are decent.
[+] [-] daimyoyo|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|15 years ago|reply
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