WingNews logo WingNews GitHub [2]
top | item 26143407

Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

334 points| behnamoh | 5 years ago | reply

Looking at decent e-ink devices to write notes on, I cannot understand why they're so expensive. For the price of a remarkable 2, for instance, you could buy an iPad which supports note-taking, and much more.

I know there are some advantages to e-ink displays, but I don't think that's enough to justify the high price tag on these readers/note-taking devices.

There's also hidden costs involved, such as buying new tips for the e-ink pencils.

Has the e-ink industry reached a dead-end where patents are impeding progress, or are there other reasons involved?

259 comments

order
[+] throwaway4485we|5 years ago|reply
Throaway to not get sued.

E-ink, the company, holds the patents of the pigment core tech that makes "paper-like" displays possible and strongarms the display manufacturers and the users of their displays to absolute silence. Any research project or startup that comes up with a better alternative technology gets bought out or buried by their lawyers ASAP.

E-ink don't make the display themselves, they make the e-ink film, filled with their patented pigment particles and sell it to display manufacturers who package the film in glass and a TFT layer and add a driver interface chip, all of which are proprietary AF and unless you're the size of Amazon, forget about getting any detailed datasheets about how to correctly drive their displays to get sharp images.

In my previous company we had to reverse engineer their waveforms in order to build usable products even though we were buying quite a lot of displays.

With so much control over the IP and the entire supply chain and due to the broken nature of the patent system, they're an absolute monopoly and have no incentive to lower prices or to bring any innovations to the market and are a textbook example of what happens to technology when there is zero competition.

So, when you see the high prices of e-paper gadgets, don't blame the manufacturers, as they're not price gouging, blame E-ink, as their displays make up the bulk of the BOM.

Tough, some of their tech is pretty dope. One day E-ink sent over a 32" 1440p prototype panel with 32 shades of B&W to show off. My God, was the picture gorgeous and sharp. I would have loved to have it as a PC monitor so I tried building an HDMI interface controller for it with an FPGA but failed due to a lack of time and documentation. Shame, although not a big loss as an estimated cost for that was near the five figure ballpark and the current consumption was astronomical, sometimes triggering the protection of the power supply on certain images.

[+] pidg|5 years ago|reply
I own a reMarkable 2.

There is certainly enough to justify the cost, if you are a prolific note-taker.

Conversely, I find it hard to justify the cost of an iPad, becuase I already have a phone and several laptops. I can't see a situation where a tablet would be more useful to me, so I've never bought one.

Turns out different people have different needs, and the e-ink note-taking market caters to that. Most people would find an iPad more useful, so they're lower cost.

[+] Larrikin|5 years ago|reply
My killer use case when I was a student was having a device I could take handwritten notes on, watch class videos on, and read my textbooks on. I then had one single device with a large screen for most of my needs. Trying to read notes on my phone was uncomfortable on the train but perfect on the iPad.

The real game changer was when I started taking the iPad to the gym and putting it on the elliptical and could do required reading or rewatch classes.

There was a positive reinforcement loop of wanting to run a certain amount but then also wanting to stay on long enough to finish a chapter and then once again figuring I should run just a little longer and get ahead in class.

[+] abeppu|5 years ago|reply
> Turns out different people have different needs, and the e-ink note-taking market caters to that.

I have the first generation, and I do enjoy it. However, I think a distinction is _how_ one takes notes. For brainstorming, and just writing free-form, it's great. However, I find it really annoying for taking notes about a doc, for two reasons:

- If you need more notes than fit in the margins and whitespace of a PDF, are you going to flip between the doc and a separate file of notes? What if you want to compare two documents, and take notes about the distinct ways two authors discuss the same material? The idea that you can't have more than one thing open feels immediately limiting.

- If you're several pages into a doc and want to flip back to some prior point (and you don't recall the specific page number), it's actually pretty awkward.

I feel like these devices are on the cusp of being much more satisfying. But at present, either I print out all but one thing which I can deal with on the remarkable, or I end up looking at a combination of a laptop and the remarkable, and in either case, I can't help feeling that an obvious use case was not well considered.

[+] _ph_|5 years ago|reply
I also own a reMarkable 2

Considering how small the company behind it is compared to Apple, I was positively surprised how well it is designed and made - in some aspects I consider it superior to the iPad. Apple can fund a lot or R&D thanks to the volume of iPad sales, a small company has much more problems to do so. And probably the reMarkable sales numbers are small compared to the iPad. At least they were able to bring down prices quite a bit with the second generation. To be honest, I wouldn't have paid much more than the 400€ for the device.

[+] d3ckard|5 years ago|reply
Let me help you - iPad is the ultimate content consumption device. It’s by far my favorite electronic device and by far the most used. I work on my computer, I communicate on my phone, but I relax on my iPad. Internet browsing, shopping, watching shorter videos (or even longer ones when cooking), sometimes playing games, reading books.

Thanks for the recommendation for Remarkable 2, considering buying one for a while now.

[+] visarga|5 years ago|reply
Got mine a week ago. I always take notes and draw mind maps while working on a project, so this fits perfectly.

I like the pen and paper sensation, the fact that my handwriting is exactly the same as on paper, the ability to erase, rewrite, cut and paste.

I don't like the flaky sync but love seeing my drawings as PDFs. The LiveView function almost doesn't work but a third party app allows me to display the tablet on the desktop for Zoom meetings.

Arxiv PDFs are easy to read only if you crop or zoom, which is a bit unfortunate. I would have loved integration with Pocket, Dropbox, Arxiv and other sources. There's no TTS option, which is also unfortunate, because I find TTS doubles my focus when reading technical text.

[+] mumblemumble|5 years ago|reply
Could you expound a bit on why you think it's more useful?

I am thinking about getting one (or one of a couple other similar options), because I think it would be MUCH more comfortable for reading and annotating papers, which is my main practical use case for an iPad. And if it's at all a decent replacement for a paper notebook, that would reduce the number of things in my bag.

But I'm also a bit worried that the organizational features might be lacking. Specifically, it sounds like there's no fulltext search feature, and syncing has to be done through their cloud service, which sounds troublesome because I've already got a system and encompasses file types and tools that ReMarkable doesn't handle.

[+] dominotw|5 years ago|reply
same. I spent ~500$ on boox air. To me its my most used device after my laptop. I use it everyday for hours to save my eyes, totally worth $500. I also have an ipad which i never use.
[+] crooked-v|5 years ago|reply
The one thing that's kept me from getting one of those is the measly 8 GB storage and not even having an SD card slot.
[+] zepto|5 years ago|reply
> There is certainly enough to justify the cost, if you are a prolific note-taker.

Would you mind saying what you find most useful?

I have an aging iPad and would very much like to replace it with an a-ink device because I don’t like staring at a light source.

[+] pizza234|5 years ago|reply
Very interesting. I did the opposite reasoning - I also do lots of note taking, however, I preferred to have a more flexible device with OK note taking (in short, a 10" Android tablet), rather than narrow device with good note taking.
[+] rtkaratekid|5 years ago|reply
I’ve had the same thoughts about the iPad. Do you know if you can use reMarkable as a display screen to draw on for video conferencing? If it could I’d probably just buy one now.
[+] extreme_orang|5 years ago|reply
I can recommend the Boox Note Air. Basically an android tablet with an e-ink display.

Excellent for PDF annotation and taking notes. Quirky as it runs Android apps.

Excellent display for reading

[+] spaetzleesser|5 years ago|reply
I would take one if i also could use it as replacement for my kindle.
[+] toyg|5 years ago|reply
Beyond patent issues, TBH I would not have a problem paying for a reMarkable this very day, if I could be 10000% sure that there wasn't some shitty SaaS service involved in using it at any stage.

These days, whenever a new gadget comes up, my first reaction has become "I wonder how they try to screw you into a SaaS later".

[+] habitue|5 years ago|reply
I have one, and the cloud service is actually completely replaceable if you want. Since the device is running linux you can compile to arm7 and just run a sync cron to whatever server you want if you don't like their cloud service.

Edit: I think people may have the impression this is like Android where the process is "ok, first reboot, hold all the buttons but not that one button and then unlock root, then flash the rom with a custom version of the OS from this sketchy site and ... bam! You're in control now"

Actually it's like: sign into wifi on the device. It's now running an ssh server available on your network. The password to log in as root is in the settings. You can ssh in right then and write a bash script to do what you want.

[+] charlesdaniels|5 years ago|reply
I was under the impression that ReMarkable in particular was pretty good about this. I believe they just run a custom Linux variant and you can even ssh into them.

I was really considering getting one, but I think the bigger issue for me is the LiPo battery. You can’t take the thing apart without a heat gun because it’s held together with adhesive, so in a few years when the battery doesn’t hold a charge, you have an expensive paperweight. I would pay a premium for a thicker device that used normal screws so that consumables such as the battery can be replaced easily.

(Many devices these days are similar, so it’s not only ReMarkable doing this.)

[+] chrismorgan|5 years ago|reply
You can easily disable software updates, and don’t need to set up the cloud sync service. The device is completely usable with no internet connection, and you get ssh access that you can do what you like with, and they provide a Qt SDK to build anything against. But I do wish xochitl (their UI) was open source.
[+] dmitrygr|5 years ago|reply
I was worried about this too. Imagine my surprise (and pleasure) when the OOB wizard had a "not now" option for wifi config. "Auto-updates" were "off" by default, and did not nag me, "cloud sync" defaulted to "off" as well, and the device root ssh password was shown on the bottom of the about screen.
[+] dec0dedab0de|5 years ago|reply
I'm sure one of the people who own one will chime in, but i think the whole device is hackable, you can get into a linux shell as root and do whatever you want.
[+] edent|5 years ago|reply
I have a Boyue Likebook Ares - it cost £190. https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2019/11/gadget-review-boyue-likeboo...

It has an 8inch screen - about the same size as the iPad mini. It runs Android 8 but, obviously, some apps work better than others. It came with several nibs for its pencil.

They have an 10 inch version for around £230. See https://goodereader.com/blog/electronic-readers/boyue-p10-is...

So, there are some cheapish, largeish, eInk devices out there.

I was told (and I have no way to back it up) that the yields on eInk are fairly low. They make a couple of square metres of screen, and then have to cut it to size. Because of defects in the process, they can have a lot of wastage. So the larger sizes are disproportionally more expensive.

[+] Snitch-Thursday|5 years ago|reply
I ended up with a Likebook Mars as it fulfilled the entire criteria I had. Very similar design to the Ares.

headphone jack

runs new enough android to run syncthing

supports SD card

[+] brassattax|5 years ago|reply
I think e-ink screens would be great for musicians too! A lot of musicians are using iPad Pro, but I personally would rather have a dual screen e-ink device like this (for better battery life, better readability): https://www.gvidomusic.com/ ($1600!!)

First company to build something like this and bring the cost down to something a bit more reasonable will get my business.

[+] dpritchett|5 years ago|reply
Not supporting a browser, games, or a media player IS the killer feature for anyone with ADHD or other focus issues.

There are lots of us out here.

Some even people do their deep work on a separate airgapped computer just to preserve their focus.

[+] nojito|5 years ago|reply
I used to have this problem, but I set up my ipad with parental control features so that I am unable to distract myself.
[+] ericd|5 years ago|reply
I wouldn't think of the remarkable 2 as "less than" an iPad. Part of the point of it is that it is completely focused on being a paper replacement. It doesn't pop up random notifications at you while you're trying to think, and it doesn't offer the opportunity for distraction when you get momentarily stuck on something, which makes it a lot easier to power through.

It's like how not having junk food in the house makes dieting a lot easier - you don't have to use willpower to do the right thing, because the wrong thing is hard to do.

[+] PurpleFoxy|5 years ago|reply
You can trivially disable notifications and remove games/social media from the iPad.
[+] corytheboyd|5 years ago|reply
I remember buying my first LCD display in the CRT era. It was tiny, thick, ugly, and of course expensive. Now they’re cheap and everywhere. The same will happen with e-ink in time.

Honestly I would rather have the iPad for note taking. Response times are important for rapid idea translation, and e-ink systems are very lacking here, whereas the iPad is not. Probably an unpopular opinion, but it’s my own experience.

[+] pidg|5 years ago|reply
Response time (i.e. pen touch to pixel appearing) on the latest generation of e-ink devices is literally imperceptible, though I believe they've had to cut a few minor corners to get it to that level.
[+] PurpleFoxy|5 years ago|reply
The iPad also has a massive library of software. There is an app called “Concepts” which provides an infinite canvas in all directions and it seems really useful for engineering and design type people where you can just draw an idea in the middle and move outwards with notes or alternate revisions. All in color, with pressure sensitivity.
[+] ohitsdom|5 years ago|reply
I would have loved to buy something more capable, but instead I settled for this cheap LCD writing display as a mini-whiteboard. I don't even know how to describe this technology but it gets the job done at $20.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QL11LWF

[+] sneak|5 years ago|reply
My guess, from ignorance: the volumes are way lower vs traditional tablets, thinning margins and driving retail price up.

Niche devices almost always cost more.

[+] luplex|5 years ago|reply
I suspect an additional reason: their customers are not very price-sensitive. They obviously can't compete with paper on price, so they don't even try.
[+] m-p-3|5 years ago|reply
I'd be a customer if the price was lower..
[+] aurizon|5 years ago|reply
From what I read, it has no advantages in the marketplace - except for a high price...
[+] figers|5 years ago|reply
Just bought a boox note air and love it, writing on it does feel like paper, syncs to OneNote & OneDrive Love reading kindle, feedly, hacker news, instapaper, zinio, etc
[+] RicoElectrico|5 years ago|reply
The company holding patents for e-ink is literally retarded, as if they don't want it to succeed. I'm not making this up. [1]

Sure e-ink has its flaws, but wouldn't it be better to have a smaller slice of a much larger cake?

OLED is patent encumbered too, there's also a patent holding company, despite that you can buy smallest modules for less than $2 on AliExpress.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22829798

[+] anfractuosity|5 years ago|reply
I wonder why electrowetting based displays aren't more prominent?

They presumably wouldn't be covered by the e-ink patents, as they seem to work on a different principle.

[+] StavrosK|5 years ago|reply
Didn't the OLED patent expire this year? Am I misremembering?
[+] arsome|5 years ago|reply
Are those $2 Chinese modules really paying to license the patent?
[+] inb4_cancelled|5 years ago|reply
Too afraid to post this on my main account.

I don't mind you using that word. It's a generic slur stripped of its original meaning. I use it all the time.

[+] Naga|5 years ago|reply
I agree completely with your points, and I'm sorry be that guy, but "literally retarded" is offensive language and is frankly below the level of discourse of HN. I'm not one to be the PC police but really, come on. You can make your argument without resulting to slurs like that.

https://www.verywellfamily.com/what-is-the-r-word-3105651

[+] powerapple|5 years ago|reply
People buy e-ink devices for a special need, the market is small, so the price would be higher. I wish Apple can produce a eink device. I bought an Onyx BOOX Nova 3. I bought it mainly for web browsing and ebooks. Surprisingly, taking note with it was quite pleasant. Although I love it and use it everyday, I really with there is a good quality device both on hardware and software level as Apple devices.
[+] mlthoughts2018|5 years ago|reply
I own a Remarkable 2 and it is vastly superior to an iPad (which I also own) for many use cases. I would likely pay more for Remarkable 2 than for a full-sized iPad at this point, as the streaming and browsing capabilities are not useful to me anymore (I would use iPhone for all of that).

I’d also like better integrations with alternate cloud storage providers, but this is true for Apple products too.

Combine with the fact you can literally ssh to your Remarkable and write your own apps, it’s a no-brainer.