Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

[jcroll]

I worked really hard on two side projects during the pandemic that I am quite proud of (here you can take a peek if you like): www.hopupon.com, www.audiobookmate.com

When I was younger I used to list side projects on my cv and employers used to take notice. I find now they don't seem to care, usually are only interested in employment history and tech tests.

I also wonder whether side projects speak to the fact that you're not concerned enough with your employer's bottom line. I remember when Ken Cosgrove, in Mad Men, had a side gig as an author and got published in a magazine. Roger Sterling told him, quite sternly, he had to choose between the job and the gig.

The thing is I would actually appreciate if a potential employer asked me about the above two projects. I think they demonstrate some of my skills and would be interesting to discuss.

What do you guys think: Do you guys still list your side projects? What about for jobs more senior than senior developer?

[Jenk]

I always ask candidates if they have anything to show off. I am _always_ more interested in what people do as a side project than I am of what they have done professionally.

Hyperbole time but I think it conveys the message: People do side projects for better reaons than they do professionally. At worst it's because they want to quickly learn/achieve something for their next job. Compared to professional experience, where at best it's because they were paid to do it and any fun or whatever altruism is a byproduct.

There are lashings upon lashings of caveats and nuance of course. For a senior role I will still be looking for interpersonal skills not just technical achievement. Part of being a senior is managing yourself, selling your ideas/concerns, mentoring and managing peers, and to some extent managing your managers.

FWIW your side projects are great examples and I'd would be impressed.

[majewsky]

I appreciate your sentiment. At the same time, looking at side projects runs the risk of discriminating against qualified candidates who don't have time for side projects because of other commitments (e.g. childcare or care for elderly relatives) or who choose to pursue non-IT hobbies to keep a work-life balance. How do you avoid treating such candidates unfairly?

[shard]

I think it depends on just how senior this position is. Senior developer, sure. VP of engineering, no. Team lead, maybe. If you list side projects, it needs to scale with your position. A VP's side project would scale up to a viable business of its own, which then is no longer a side project but a work experience entry in the CV.

[ManBlanket]

"I don't discriminate. I select the applicant most qualified to repay the loan."

- Algorithm which refuses loans to black people.

[TameAntelope]

I've been hiring a couple of senior positions, and so far the most appropriate way I've seen side projects highlighted is with a link to the applicant's GitHub.

Honestly, finding a well maintained and substantive project in a person's GitHub would impress me, and that candidate would certainly stand out. So often people link their GitHub accounts, but when I visit, I only see toy projects and book exercises.

As part of my hiring process I've been giving out a simple take home coding challenge, but I offer to instead review a project you've already been working on if that's your preference, because I feel bad making people do work for a job they don't even have yet (I haven't been able to convince my boss to let me pay people for their time on the take home challenge yet).

[quickthrower2]

It’s better to link to specific projects unless you keep the GitHub super pristine for interviews.

Mine has a few gone nowhere forks, scrap books, silly projects etc.

[xcambar]

You want your side projects to help you get the job. They must demonstrate as achievements instead of hobbies.

For this reason, I'd default to no, don't list side projects, unless you make it a strong argument for the position you're applying to.

Are you a major contributor to a tech used in company? Have you written a book about it? Did you grow a community? Have you reached significant traction or revenue?

Any yes to one of the above, if they relate to the position, can hint you into mentioning your side project.

Other than that, your side project will be seen as a hobby and not an achievement, and will be disregarded.

Note: some nuances may apply, so take this as the generic advice it's meant to be.

[PragmaticPulp]

> Other than that, your side project will be seen as a hobby and not an achievement, and will be disregarded.

I think you’ve misunderstood the purpose of a side project for engineers. They’re supposed to be hobby projects that demonstrate the developer’s abilities as well as their commitment to following through on projects.

The OP’s projects are perfect for listing as completed side projects on a Senior Engineer resume. I wouldn’t hesitate to include them on a resume and describe the technologies used to build them.

You definitely don’t need to demonstrate significant traction or revenue for an engineering side project, nor do you need to write a book about it or build a significant community around it. These are ridiculously high standards for including a development side project on a senior engineer resume.

Frankly, if someone were to list “side projects” with significant revenue and a large community, I’m going to assume it’s a business and not a side project. We’d have to have a conversation about how much time and energy it’s going to take away from their employment, and how we can cleanly separate it from interfering with their job. Showing employers that you’re running a side business with significant revenue and therefore significant needs isn’t exactly a bonus when it comes to hiring someone. A fun side project that demonstrates their skills is a bonus, however.

[jcroll]

I like your answer I just wonder: I used this project to teach myself kubernetes. If someone asks me how I know kubernetes what do I say? I suppose I say it was on a side project I did

[austincheney]

My experience is that side projects are 90% ignored. They are treated strictly as line items like education.

I got furious tired of this so on my last resume I treated my employment history strictly as employment history. A list of employers with dates and dates of promotions plus a sentence or two what I worked on. Supremely lowered emphasis.

I also put my personal projects into a separate section above my employment history. Between my personal projects and employment history I put in a small two paragraph section for personal bio. In this bio I mention how long I have been programming, some of my accomplishments. I also explicitly mention to carefully consider my personal projects to make an informed decision if I will be a good fit for their organization and that two of my personal projects contain over a thousand commits. I follow up that up with a mention that I am not waiting on administrative approval or a budget authorization to innovate and that these personal projects are years of experience other developers do not have.

This a recent change I have made so I cannot say if it’s successful.

[NikolaNovak]

>>"a mention that I am not waiting on administrative approval or a budget authorization to innovate".

I think what gets lost in a lot of these threads is that different employees, and different employers, look for different things. And that's OK. There's filtering going on all sides and not everybody is a right fit.

For example - depending on how you phrase that sentiment on your resume, you might be an immediate No for our team - we are in a very traditional production mode with a procedure-focused client, and the sentence is telling me you might not follow process, wait for approvals, engage the team and client, and will just do your own thing. That may or may not be what you're saying, as I said it depends on the phrasing... But! That may be in fact excellent and mutually beneficial filtering - you probably don't want to be on my current team, and the ideal company/team for you may see that very same statement as a positive signal :).

My point is - not all filtering is bad. In threads like this we focus on "doing / not doing this on a resume will be a red flag for many employers" - but that's not necessarily a wrong thing. It's like dating - some people will advise "don't be yourself", but I ask - Why? Sure, be a good version of yourself on first date / interview, but be fundamentally honest what both of you are looking for. You don't have to have relationship with everybody, you don't have to get hired by everybody. You need to find that one person/job that works :)

[xenocratus]

I have no experience in hiring and can't really talk about it from my experiences of applying for jobs, but this sounds a bit weird to me, essentially telling the person reviewing your CV: "I've been focusing more on side projects than on my previous jobs, that's why you should consider me for this _job_".

[nicoburns]

I've struggled with this quite a bit. My current employer initially hired me for a less senior position than the one I applied for... and then promoted me to the one I applied for within 2 weeks of me starting the job. I think a lot of that is because they didn't consider my side-project experience (especially the ones I did before my first dev job) as valuable whilst it actually contributes significantly to my capabilities as a developer.

[fshbbdssbbgdd]

You sound like a good engineer, but I’m afraid many of the people reading your resume would rather hire someone who can navigate their way through the administrative process instead of being stopped by it. Maybe that’s a good thing, because it will filter out jobs that aren’t a good fit for you, but it probably includes many of the top employers.

[devmor]

When I evaluate someone for hire, if they have side projects I will be looking at those much more extensively than I will their employment history.

How you spend your time, what you spend it on, and how you executed your vision are much more interesting and informative to me about how you'll handle your work than which corporations you've fit into a slot for.

[dmuth]

Oh god yes!

When I'm interviewing someone, especially for a senior position, I want to make sure that they know what they say they know on their resume. Having code up on GitHub, or an actual working side project is a great way to show those things off.

Even code that doesn't look great, but shows that some level of effort was made to learn a new technology is okay. If anything, it then gives me a jumping off point in the interview to ask the candidate about that project, why it's in that state, why certain decisions were made, etc.

I am seriously having a difficult time thinking of downsides in listing a personal project, so I say go for it.

[presidentender]

Historically when interviewing candidates I put more weight on side projects the shorter the resume was. A brand new college grad who made an impressive-looking portfolio web site got extra consideration.

But interviewers are still human beings, and so a link to a visually impressive, interactive and accessible side project will probably get you some credit. My favorites were multi-player games.

If the side project makes money, that's a whole 'nother consideration. Everyone is likely to be impressed.

[fecak]

I'm a professional resume writer and former tech recruiter, and I'd say "it depends".

Does the side project demonstrate a specific skill that you don't have in your day job that can/will be attractive to the hiring company? (if yes, include)

Does the side project have any popularity or adoption that would potentially make it impressive? (if yes, include)

Does the side project demonstrate your ability to solve problems within the hiring company's domain? (if yes, include)

Does the side project show some level of versatility that your professional body of work lacks? (if yes, include)

[NikolaNovak]

You'll get answers on every which side. I think they'll tell you less of a perfect "DO THIS" answer that'll work in every situation, and more showcase that there are different employers and different hiring agents supporting different teams and different cultures.

You seem excited about your projects, eager to talk about them, and you seem like you'd implicitly like some recognition/appreciation of them & to have a supportive employer. So my personal, not professional advice, if you have luxury to do so, is to include them and use them as a filter of your employers.

Unless an employee is in urgent dire straits, interview should be a two-way process - not just employer reviewing employee but other way around too (when I interview potential team members, I try to spend at least a third time if not more about the work, team, company, culture, expectations, honest up and downsides, so they can make an intelligent choice if we are a good fit too).

While I am actually currently practically in a camp that doesn't hugely care about people's side projects due to nature of what my team does, if you have something that's important to you, make it part of interview and figure out if the employer/team is the one you'd like to join.

[jkingsbery]

I do a fair amount of helping interview senior positions at my current company. At the risk of saying something obvious: when interviewing senior people, the goal is to figure out whether they will do well operating at a senior level. Senior engineers usually bring two things to a team: a broader and deeper technical knowledge, and the ability to help influence and structure larger projects (doing larger scale designs, reviewing designs and code from other engineers, helping mentor more junior engineers, things like that). Side projects can sometimes help inform someone's technical abilities, but it's rare for people to have a side project where they are doing a lot of the "influencing others" part of the job.

But, yeah, if you put in the work, it shouldn't hurt to list your side projects. But also, keep them in perspective: don't bring them up simply because they would be "interesting to discuss." By their nature, side projects don't deal with a lot of challenges of professional projects: there's usually no deadline, there's no disagreements with other engineers, they deal with a smaller scale audience so don't deal with bugs and maintenance.

[muzani]

I've applied for senior jobs where the interviewer was very impressed with my side projects but chose not to hire me anyway. For the most part, they didn't seem to care about the other things as well - the fact I consulted for a tech giant the size of Google, or taught certifications, or architected a project with millions of daily users, or rewrote a year old social media app from Cordova to native iOS+Android in two months with a 3 person mobile team.

The decision seems to fall to the default, "What's the O(n) of a Set" or, "Tell me what you worked on recently." You could probably build an operating system or Dwarf Fortress as a side project, and they might not even notice it.

I'd say just pick whatever showcases you best as a person, and it will catch the eye of someone who's looking for a person like you. I ended up getting a job doing research, where I get to quickly hack together lots of prototypes, so it's a perfect fit.

[Tade0]

Recruiters are mostly interested in the things other people paid you to do - because it shows that it's safe to pay you as well.

I list such things as "web presence" along with my GitHub account, "technical blog"(heavy quotes here) and LinkedIn profile. I think only that last one ever gets clicked on.

Large companies especially don't care about such things, because they need you to fill a highly specific role, not one that would make use of the broad skillset required to release your own product.

[jstx1]

Is the last part really true? I think large companies often hire much more broadly and some don't even have a specific position/team for you until you go through the matching process after you start the job.

[runawaybottle]

I’d honestly list a side project that highlights the skills relevant to the job over a job where you used irrelevant skills.

But you have to come strong with the side project. The site/app better be up, you better have a repo, and it better be something beyond a todo-app or a bootcamp project.

[pryelluw]

I do mention my side open source side projects, but not side hustles.

[PragmaticPulp]

This is a good distinction.

Side projects = Fun project that demonstrates skills

Side business = Ongoing obligation that could distract from your job.

Be careful in how you present them.

[mxuribe]

I was going to mention that if you somehow turned your side project into a side hustle, that could be received well, because it shows you were able to evolve your project into the business (maybe even monetization) direction...but that would require really careful, nuanced explanation...so i defer my position to what @PragmaticPulp rightly stated about being very careful in how that distinction is presented (to avoid concerns around distractions, etc.).

[sillysaurusx]

The best way to get a job is not to need it.

Not needing it is conveyed in a thousand ways. Personally, I think being your authentic self is the most important aspect. If you’re proud of your work, list it! Side project or not, it’s still your work and is a reflection of the kind of work you can do for them.

I don’t think senior vs junior is particularly relevant. People care about your work history, but as long as your projects are listed under “other” then there shouldn’t be any confusion.

[bregma]

If you're qualifying for a true senior position, and if you haven't done something outside of work in the decades of your professional experience, it's a bad sign. If by "senior position" you're thinking something that can be done by a 25-year-old with over 5 years of experience in a specific product, your resume is already on the discard pile.

I recruit a lot of work-term students (and have filled a few senior positions in the past). I always look for side projects. I always check github accounts for unmentioned side projects. Side projects tell me more about who the applicant is than a resume does. I hire people, not resumes and not previous positions of employment. Folks who are interested and enthusiastic about their field are better to work with.

Honestly, it's pretty rare that anyone lists a side project on their resume, so it's not absolutely required. When it's there, though, it usually makes the interview better ("tell me about your side project") and it's often the difference between getting an interview and not.

[posharma]

If you care about only FAANGM companies, leetcode is all that you need. No one at these companies care about your side projects.

[jstx1]

They fit in different part of the hiring processs. A side project is something that potentially makes your resume more attractive and makes it more likely you get a callback/interview. Leetcode is a technical test which comes later.

Being the best leetcoder doesn't make a difference if you don't get an interview.

[bryanrasmussen]

I think the takeaway was actually Roger Sterling was mistaken there, and it later came back to bite him.

At any rate one question I have had in the last few years (maybe due to age) is how do you keep up on latest technologies - I then have side projects and articles I can point to as a way to learn new things.

[relaunched]

There are two plays you can make by listing a side project. For example, if the project is in some way commensurate to the role. For example, if you are applying for a VP of engineering job at a large technology company and your side project is co-author and commit rights to a major open source project, say Python or a well known and use library and you're actively involved.

Or, if it's on the resume to demonstrate you're still actively hands on and you believe that is valuable to the role.

However, if you wouldn't talk about it in an interview, don't put it on your resume. If it wouldn't help you get the job, I wouldn't talk about it in the interview.

[quickthrower2]

It’s about strategy: you don’t know what the interviewers are looking for. Being human they may be dazzled by side projects and it may help get the job at company A because person 13 was interviewing that day but make no difference at B and C. But you get more offers and negotiate a better compensation at B.

In other words interviews are human and messy, not strictly logical.

[wpietri]

Different people review resumes differently. Here's my take:

Important questions for me include: Can they build things? Do they have enough experience dealing with real-world deployments to avoid common pitfalls? Do they care about the domain? How long will they stick around?

You're correct that they're going to be of the most help early on, because they demonstrate real-world experience with production software. It's a great sign you'll be able to take a vaguely-specified user need and get something valuable done in production. But even more senior resumes sometimes still leave me wondering if they've worked at sufficiently big/bureaucratic places.

Assuming your resume demonstrates competence without the projects, then yes, they could just as easily count against you as for you.

If the project is one that's related to the domain and/or the tech stack, that's a positive sign that you're interested in what we're actually doing, and so joining us would give you something you could be very engaged in.

Otherwise, I'm going to be concerned that we're going to have to compete for your time and attention with your side project. That this is a day job you're just doing until the side project takes off. I might hire somebody like that, but one of the things I think about when hiring is ROI on my time, so if I can get somebody as good who is likely to focus better and stay longer, I'll hire them instead.

The particular side projects you list are of the kind that would be most concerning to me. They look like attempts to build actual businesses. And you have two of them going at once, which is a bad sign: if you can't focus on one of your commercial projects long enough to make is successful, maybe you won't focus on your actual job either. And there's something cold and unappealing about both of them to me. They are trying to compete with full commercial sites and prominently say they're the best, but when I try them out it doesn't seem that way.

In contrast, the kind of side project that I'd react positively to in more senior engineers is one that demonstrates competence without looking like it will be competitive, and bonus points if it's related to the domain somehow. Modest open-source projects, for example. Twitter bots. Niche Twilio apps. Small, fun services like mcbroken.com or typelit.io.

To me things like that indicate enjoyment of the work, a desire to create things, and an interest in serving users, all positive traits. But they do so without giving me questions about whether they employee will be able to focus on what they're getting paid for.

[gdubs]

I suggest you zoom out a little and consider that landing a great job isn’t about checking boxes — it’s about demonstrating how you’ll be awesome at helping whatever organization you’re applying to do what they do, and hopefully do it even better than they’re doing it today.

So the answer to your question really depends on the specific job, and what you think the side projects demonstrate. Do they show off great problem solving ability? Organizational capacity? Team building? Tenacity? Etc.