Ask HN: What Apple alternatives are you switching to?

[ByteWelder]

Due to the controversy around Apple's CSAM backdoor plans, it seems like quite a few people are wondering what kind of alternatives are available. Let's share them!

My choices:

- Desktop: Manjaro Gnome, because it feels like macOS. It even does the 3 finger swipe up to see all your apps with Apple's Touchpad. My wireless Apple Keyboard also works fine.

Screenshot: https://imgur.com/a/UYPfgkC

To install it on my older MacBook Pro from 2014, but I had to use Android internet tethering to install the WiFi driver. To install it on my super new desktop, I had to use an ISO with a newer Kernel (5.13) due to the Radeon 6700 XT graphics card. I got that one from https://github.com/manjaro/release-review/releases/ instead of the Manjaro main website.

- Phone: I considered a Pixel with CalyxOS, but ended up buying a OnePlus 8T with microG variant of LineageOS from https://lineage.microg.org

Alternatively a Pixel phone would also run this version of LineageOS. MicroG (https://microg.org/) re-implements some parts of Google Play Services, while safeguarding your privacy, like push notifications. It also has some other Google-specific features re-implemented. I have over 40 apps and only found 1 that didn't work so far (which is Uber Eats, because they seem to require Google Advertisement ID). I pushed a modified Google Camera app to it (from https://www.celsoazevedo.com/), so my camera is better supported. I think only 3 out of 4 cameras are working, but I don't care.

- Watch: Amazfit GTR 2e with the official app. Alternatively it should work with Gadgetbridge if you don't want to use the offical app ("Zepp"). Amazfit GTR 2 is a better option if you want it to have WiFi and want to store music on it. Alternatives I considered: OnePlus Watch and Fossil Hybrid.

Apple features that I gave up:

- Apple Carplay: Because I don't want to use the Google ecosystem, Android Auto is not an alternative. I'll use my car's own GPS system, or I'll end up using my phone's offline maps.

- Apple Pay: My bank luckily has a contactless payment app for my phone, but I won't be making payments with my watch anymore.

[gjsman-1000]

To be honest... None.

It's a choice. You might wholly disagree, but recent events aren't enough to get me to switch yet, because I think the competition has too many tradeoffs.

I can get my photos scanned against a CSAM database... or I can have Google tracking my location constantly regardless of what they say (as they've been proven to be misleading in the past)... or I can use a Linux phone and say goodbye to battery life and useful apps I need. I'll pick CSAM Scanning over my Location data being in the hands of Google, sorry.

And as for my laptop, macOS doesn't scan, and the M1 is too impressive and has me spoiled. And I have too many horror stories with both Linux and Windows and can't stand either of them. (Don't tell me switch to Linux - I've tried over a dozen distributions over the last decade. It's just not there yet.)

[redisman]

I find it funny how many people pick a random Chinese phone in their bid for privacy (???)

[scoopertrooper]

Exactly, I think people are just getting a little too worked up over this whole thing. Apple computes a hash of each image you upload to iCloud then check it against a list of CP hashes.

Of all the things in the world to get worked up over, this is ridiculous.

I get it, the mechanism they're using has apparent flaws, and maybe some whacko could somehow get access to your phone and start uploading things that trick the algorithm into thinking you have CP.

But, that alone is such a ridiculous phobia, if someone has that level of access to your phone, they could upload real CP and maybe even upload it to your Facebook for good measure.

[ByteWelder]

There are plenty of Android flavours that don't have Google apps, like https://lineage.microg.org/ In my limited experience so far, LineageOS works much better than it used to on my HTC Desire. Battery life has been better than any of my iPhones (3G, 4S, 5S, 7 and XS) ever had.

That said, if I had to chose between a Google Android phone and an Apple phone, I'd still pick the Apple one. Luckily there are more choices these days.

[runjake]

Plus, in the same use case (photos in the cloud), they’re still being scanned for CSAM and probably piracy and whatever else Google scans for.

[bastardoperator]

This^

For me it boils down to ecosystem and integration. I can have a fragmented set of devices and tools, or I can deal with CSAM having literally zero impact on me.

I also have an M1 laptop, it's insane that this little MacBook Air with 16GB ram is walking all over a 16'inch Macbook Pro with 64GB ram.

[netsec_burn]

AOSP/FDroid would be a middle ground for your requirements, no?

[giancarlostoro]

It's only a matter of time before Google starts doing the same thing. I can't imagine Google wont do it eventually.

[0x0]

macOS has been announced to scan just like iOS

[xtracto]

Agreed, I use Linux as my desktop PC (gaming and tinkering), Mac as my work PC and the Windows computer I had just died (Surface Pro 4). My mobile is an Android.

I don't any hardware or software developer... I don't really care if the US is reading my emails, images, chats and whatnot. I choose not to worry about those sort of things.

My product choices are more related to functionality and basic ROI.

[rhn_mk1]

> I can get my photos scanned against a CSAM database... or I can have Google tracking my location constantly

That's a false dichotomy. There are competitors offering various levels of maturity and functionality. Jolla exists, PinePhone, Xiaomi, Librem 5, dumb phones, POTS landline, no phone...

And yes, Linux on the desktop is also a valid choice. It most likely won't track you either.

[intricatedetail]

When a pedo gets released from prison, in some jurisdictions they are required to have scanning software installed on their devices. Apple makes every customer a suspected pedo. If you are comfortable with being treated this way, whatever floats your boat. Not everyone fancy receiving the same treatment as criminal on parole.

[AnIdiotOnTheNet]

I'm reasonably confident that Google listens to every conversation I have within earshot of my phone. It isn't uncommon to find things in my news feed that are related to things I have no interest in but a friend or coworker had just mentioned to me in passing.

[cassianoleal]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28118619

macOS does _something_ related to this system. It's unclear what though.

I agree with how impressive the M1 is. I've replaced my 16" fully specced i9 with a 13" M1 Air. The only thing I sometimes miss is the larger screen but not by much.

[corndoge]

> It's just not there yet

Respectfully, it is there. You are not. Which is fine - I prefer a Mac for general purpose computer use, word processing, web browsing, that sort of thing. But Linux can do these things just as well, it just requires you to configure them, which is strictly a "you" constraint and not a failure of the system.

[fartcannon]

What would they have to do to lose your business? Literally get you arrested?

You're financially supporting the creation of an Orwellian dystopia.

[imwillofficial]

It never will be there. A focused group of devs who care about details will always beat design by committee. Always.

[racl101]

Same here.

[androidu]

this. It's 21st century people, we care about usability...

What simplifies in my life if I'm moving away from any ecosystem that tracks me to the OSS way, do I have to compile my own Chromium over the night? "oh, my Linux segfaulted, let's reinstall the OS"

time. Saving time on these operations is worth more than some X-company sniffing my network traffic. Yes, I care about privacy, I always decline the cookie pop-ups, always ask for GDPR contract before handing over my phone no./email to recruiters et. al. I'm doing my best without breaking usability & affecting time spent on these operations.

[pshirshov]

> I think the competition has too many tradeoffs.

I believe that, for example, anticorruption activists and gay people in Russia who may be subjected to state-imposed surveillance won't agree with you. Apple won't leave even the russian market in case the government demands to expand capabilities of the system. And they will never leave chinese market.

> macOS doesn't scan

I'm afraid I have some bad news for you:

"Features to detect child abuse material stored on iCloud coming in updates to US users iOS 15, iPadOS 15, watchOS 8, and macOS Monterey."

[numair]

For those studying MacBook alternatives, I think the most underrated “serious” notebook computer in the world is the Panasonic Letsnote SX/SV.

Matte screen that actually works outdoors, removable long-life battery, unassuming vintage design (“let’s not rob that guy, he can’t even afford a new computer”). I haven’t investigated the Linuxability of this thing yet, but it’s super-light and impressive as a mosh terminal (especially with built-in 4G LTE!). Tough magnesium body, super comfy keyboard that’s easy to swap out if you beat it up. Made in Japan!

I have a fully loaded MacBook Pro, and couldn’t imagine doing design work on anything else, but I somehow end up getting lots of work done on the Letsnote. It’s at a point where I don’t think I’ll be excited about the long-awaited new 14-inch MacBook Pro, as I doubt it’ll have a matte screen and a durable exterior (and, I much prefer to look like a sad worker stuck with a dorky computer from 2006, than a moneyed tech guy).

[neverminder]

Desktop - Ubuntu 20.04. Everything works and my requirements are quite advanced - bunch of games on Steam, pro level audio production studio just to mention a few things.

Laptop - Dell Precision 7750, Xeon CPU, 64 GB RAM, bought with Ubuntu pre-installed. Beast of a laptop, superior thermals, wipes the floor with a mac.

Phone - Google Pixel. I consider that a lesser evil choice to Apple's walled garden. It's rooted, I don't see any ads, etc.

Tablet - Google Pixel Slate. High end tablet with 16 GB RAM running Chrome OS which supports native linux apps for a while now.

These were all more or less state of the art devices at the time of buying, I have absolutely no need whatsoever to to even think about Apple or Microsoft.

[crossroadsguy]

I don’t care anymore. Actually I do, but I’m exhausted.

However if I buy a new laptop, with or without CSAM, it won’t be a Mac. I would wish for a Framework kinda thing here (with local service), but since that’s not gonna happen - ASUS it would be most probably, with ElementaryOS on it (or some distro like that - non ugly and kinda simple looking).

It feels like WhatsApp —> Signal brouhaha all over again. After trying to get my contacts on Signal for 7-8 months and having deleted WhatsApp I’m back to it after my own struggles with Signal.

So no, not again. My next phone (if my iPhone 7 dies on me) will be an iPhone 12 Mini (or a 13 variant that’s around same size and cost) probably. Because that’s the only new phone that still bloody fits in my palm. After that? I’ll see.

[thefunnyman]

Thinkpads have served me pretty well, mostly for Linux though I do dual boot. A bit pricey new, but lots of options in the used market since businesses buy new ones all the time. Lenovo has had some controversy, but never with the Thinkpad line afaik and frankly at this point it’s hard to find a manufacturer without some history of controversy.

[whoknowswhat11]

Another challenge is the track record of some of the chinese phone maker competitors that ship for example without google play services is not long or its not good.

My instinct. This is an insane amount of noise on HN. But of all the privacy issues folks have, CSAM scanning by Apple is not going to "destory apple's brand" and for most users the safety features (kids accounts flag up on nude photos etc) is actually what people want and we will see others following a lot of these moves.

[hpkuarg]

New LG Grams are nice laptops and could be a good alternative to ASUS. I've had no problems with recent Ubuntu versions on them.

[donohoe]

This seems like an over-reaction. I'm highly opposed to Apple's CSAM move but they are still much better and transparent than Google, Amazon, and most other services.

Many of these already do something like this but they just don't actively tell you or document it.

Also, and please correct me if I am mistaken, Apple's CSAM is limited to iCloud for Photos. It does not just work against your local photos.

  CSAM Detection enables Apple to accurately 
  identify and report iCloud users who store
  known Child Sexual Abuse Material (CSAM) 
  in their iCloud Photos accounts

It seems like a needless waste of time do do all this as opposed to disabling iCloud for Photos...

Source: https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Techni...

[ByteWelder]

For me, it was well thought-out. Apple betrayed my trust as a consumer and the response in the past week was plain gaslighting. I thought about it for a couple of days and then decided that I don't want to support a company like that anymore.

(edit)I was planning to buy a new MBP/iPhone/Watch in Q4, so this made it easier to decide on those purchases earlier.(/edit)

It's correct that the CSAM scanning is currently only effective when iCloud is enabled - and for US customers only. For me, this detail is irrelevant. The backdoor might be inactive for now, but there would still be a backdoor on my phone.

[matwood]

It is limited to photos destined for iCloud. A lot of rage appears to be around 'what if', but what if exists every day right now. I'll re-evaluate when Apple does one of those what ifs. They said they won't, and architected the system in such a way that it's hard do those what ifs, so we'll see.

The reality is, people have to trust their OS vendor.

[knownjorbist]

> I'm highly opposed to Apple's CSAM move but they are still much better and transparent than Google, Amazon, and most other services.

Is this actually true? Is there a way to see what information Apple has on you? I'm sure it's not the full extent of what they have, but for example I can see(and hear) past voice prompts I've given to Google Assistant and their results. I can also choose to delete this information(obviously no way to know this is actually deleted though).

[karlzt]

Desktop: Arch Linux

Phone: Pinephone

At the end of this article: https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7e77y/the-dollar149-smartph...

"But even without those changes, this device could be enough to kickstart a Linux-driven mobile revolution."

[mapgrep]

On laptop I moved to Qubes a few years ago, on a ThinkPad X1 carbon which is an amazing machine. I keep a c2014 MacBook around for miscellaneous things (e.g. syncing Spotify local songs to my phone over local WiFi, which I have not figured out how to do in the Linux client).

For phone I’m very interested in /e/os and the one phone you can get new with it preinstalled, the Teracube 2 (wired has a Teracube review of the very similar previous model).

I am looking at photoprism running on a home server (intel nuc) synced via PhotoSync (can sync photos via sftp). It actually looks really cool and uses tensorflow to do some sort of AI photo sorting locally.

By the way, while there’s a learning curve to this stuff, it feels very empowering and educational once you’ve put in the work. It feels like the future. Compute and storage is cheap. I think hosting things on your own server is the inevitable future. Once you’re set up it just hums along. This stuff will eventually be sold in appliance form (see Helm email server for the model).

[pshirshov]

Phone: Google Pixel 5 plus CalyxOS at the moment. Probably will switch to pure LineageOS due to call recording support. The bootloader is locked so the phone is secure and does not call home. Highly recommend. Some apps and in-app purchases doesn't work well on microG, also there are some issues with paid apps. And Android UX sucks but it's a reasonable price to pay for privacy. In fact I've been suprised - with this phone I don't feel as bad as I expected.

I really hope that Pixel 6 will have better camera and bigger screen and also would be supported by Lineage.

PC: I have an AMD desktop with Gentoo and going to buy Purism laptop later.

Watch: I don't use them. Actually was going to buy next Apple Watch but...

Apple Pay: no good replacement, though contactless cards aren't THAT bad.

Apple Carplay: phone+organic maps.

[28194608]

Main reason I'm using apple devices is for their quick security updates. I don't trust Samsung phone because they even run ads on $1500 phone. I am thinking to go with Pixel phone.

[emaro]

I'll buy a Fairphone with pretty high probability next time. No more iPhones. On desktop I was always a Windows user, but recently switched to PopOS.

I try to use open source software where possible and after the endless stream of depressing news about working conditions and environmental impact of our juicy tech I'm ready to pay more for less to get (relatively) fair and open hardware too.

Edit: Considering Linux phones like Pinephone or Librem too, but they seem not ready to me yet and they emphasise much more on technical freedom and less on fair production.

[lettergram]

I’ve been working on my pinephone. But it’s really underpowered imo.

I’m considering a Librem 5. Which has more cpu power and battery.

The appeal to me is really getting off any major tech platform. Further, you can disconnect the components via switches — iE unplug the microphone. That being said, I can’t even use Signal on them without some major configurations.

https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=13728

I have also considered the “freedom phone”. But my understand is it’s just Graphene + process isolation on a slightly modified hardware. Until it’s heavily vetted I wouldn’t use it though.

And ugh yeah, that’s about it.

[acheron]

It should be obvious that anyone who says “I’m concerned about privacy, so I’m going to switch to using Google products!” is not a serious person.

If you’re actually going to switch to using open source hardware phones and whatnot, then good luck I guess. I can see where more progress in that area would lead to general improvements, so it’s not entirely tilting at windmills.

[kwerk]

I’m testing how much I can move from services before switching devices and don’t have everything mapped out just yet.

- cloud backups: testing iMazing Wi-Fi daily backups to NAS. Tested a clean restore to an iPad that was perfect. The daily backups aren’t running consistently yet but likely has to do with power save settings.

- Photos: syncing with Synology Photos. Backup seems fine (40k of 65k pictures so far). The app leaves a lot to be desired vs Apple Photos.

Will test Calyx / Graphene on a Pixel at some point but not likely to pass the wife test.

[sjaak]

I'm thinking of getting one of these: https://frame.work/

Any people here with experience with one?

[helen___keller]

I've been down this road long before CSAM, the gist is:

Use FOSS when possible, minimize all other internet-connected devices when FOSS is not available.

I actually still plan to continue using iPhone as a necessary evil until PinePhone, Librem, or similar are production ready (as my use cases demand). But I don't trust the device, my world doesn't revolve around the device, and that's kind of the only way to live with having devices running proprietary, untrustworthy code.

[prophesi]

For those who want to keep using their Apple devices, I highly recommend Nextcloud as an iCloud Photos alternative. I've been running an instance of it on a little Pine64 for quite some time now without any issues.

Though I'll still the say the crux of the issue is that the majority of users _won't_ have iCloud Photos disabled, and thus have their privacy violated.

[kwerk]

How large is your photo library / how would you compare NextCloud photos to Apple Photos? I'm starting with testing Synology Photos which has at least basic local people tagging (a must with small kids). Feels like a big tradeoff with all the self-hosted options. I've heard NextCloud is slow. PhotoPrism looks awesome but no mobile client (yet) which makes family adoption tricky.

[rootusrootus]

None. I am hoping that someone attacks me with a few dozen grayscale perceptual hash collisions so I can save them on my device, to iCloud, and hope it slips by Apple's checkers. And NCMEC's checkers, etc. Because I too want to retire as a king, and losing a few friends who can't really wrap their heads around a gray image attack ... well, no biggy, I'm kind of a loner to begin with.

[Daedren]

XZ1 Compact with microG. I still have an iPad, though I see myself in the future upgrading to a the equivalents of the iPhone 12 mini and a Samsung Tab S7. (I prefer small phones, and there's no Android ones now)

Don't put your data in places where you can't export data (Apple Notes for instance), or ideally places that aren't cross-platform.

This allows me the freedom to move between OSes, and most importantly, have more choice in my products. Getting stuck in an ecosystem is exactly what Apple and Samsung want, and it's very anti-consumer in the end.

[fbnlsr]

I've been using Pop!_OS on a Lenovo Thinkpad T480 for a year now, coming from a Macbook Air, and I couldn't be happier.

The thinkpad cost me less than half the price of a Macbook, and I was able to change its keyboard (for a QWERTY one) and add 8 GB of RAM in less than an hour (and for less than $100).

Pop!_OS is amazing. It feels close enough to MacOS that the adaptation period was almost non existent, and it's been running flawlessly for more than a year now.

[istingray]

1. I just setup dual booting on my 16" Macbook Pro!

Didn't think it was possible because of T2 but then found the "T2 Linux Community" here: https://t2linux.org/

They have a step by step guide for Ubuntu and a helpful Discord group to walk me through.

I dug into Purism Librem and System76 Laptops. Dual booting Ubuntu buys me some time.

2. I also disabled iCloud and started NextCloud on a third party host. It's pretty clunky, still getting that setup. In the open source world it seems like there's less opportunities to pay for quality. Take my money!!