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Ask HN: Why there are no Android mini phones?

129 points| JamesAdir | 4 years ago

Although there are countless Android phone makers, there isn't a single one of them that makes compact phones. Sony was in the business for a while but it seems to lower the supply of the new models and mark them with super high prices. That's very strange as there is clearly demand for smaller phones, shown by the iPhone mini. Apple offers an almost identical compact phone to it's regular model, but it seems that phone makers who usually copy Apple on everything, just skip this idea at all. If anyone has thoughts on it or a compact model to recommend I'll be glad to hear.

176 comments

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[+] mdasen|4 years ago|reply
> there is clearly demand for smaller phones, shown by the iPhone mini

The iPhone mini might be a counter-example. The iPhone mini has sold poorly and it seems like Apple is unlikely to continue it when they redesign the form factor. They'll keep it around while they keep this form factor since they've already spent the money, but I doubt that we'll see an iPhone 15 mini (when they're likely to come out with a redesign based on their 3-year cadence).

https://www.macrumors.com/2021/02/09/iphone-12-mini-low-janu...

https://www.macrumors.com/2021/02/15/iphone-13-mini-expected...

https://www.macrumors.com/2021/01/05/iphone-12-mini-sales-la...

https://www.macrumors.com/2021/01/22/poor-iphone-12-mini-sal...

https://www.macrumors.com/2021/06/30/apple-ends-iphone-12-mi...

> it seems that phone makers who usually copy Apple on everything, just skip this idea at all

Making a smaller device is difficult. You still have to pack in the same guts, but you have less space to do it. This is particularly acute when it comes to battery.

Android phones often need 50-100% more battery to achieve similar battery life as the iPhone.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/17004/apples-iphone-13-series...

Here we see an iPhone 13 Pro with 3095 mAh battery getting 16.62 hours of battery life. The Asus ROG Phone 5 gets 16 hours with a 6000 mAh battery. The Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra gets 15.91 hours with a 5000 mAh battery.

Android phone manufacturers need space for large batteries. The iPhone mini's 2406 mAh battery is smaller than an iPhone Pro, but it's less than half what a lot of Android phones are coming with. Android phones seem to have standardized on 5000+ mAh and that's more than double an iPhone mini's battery.

Then there's also the heat/cooling situation. With a smaller space, it becomes harder to engineer.

And if they create this smaller phone which might be harder to make, would customers be willing to pay as much for it? I was kinda shocked that Apple offered the iPhone mini for $100 less than the regular iPhone.

When it comes down to it, the iPhone mini probably nets Apple 1-2% of its revenue. Is that enough to keep it around? Maybe. But Android manufacturers don't have Apple's margins and they don't have Apple's volume.

The reason there aren't Android mini phones is that customers don't buy mini phones. Even if they say that they'd like a mini phone, they aren't willing to buy it. Every woman I know says that mini phones would be the biggest seller. Apple has tried that and it's only 5%. I love my iPhone mini and I'll be really sad if Apple gets rid of it. I don't see why people want giant phones. At the same time, I understand the engineering challenges of smaller phones and acknowledge that while I think everyone should want a smaller phone, they don't.

[+] 1_player|4 years ago|reply
Giant phones are great if it's your only computing device. I have a desktop, tablet and laptop, and I love my iPhone mini, since I use it only for phone calls and sending messages. I don't need 6 inch screens for that, even as a big guy with big hands.
[+] ksec|4 years ago|reply
From the maker of the best ( and expensive ) Japanese toaster, Balmuda. But it is $900 though. Even smaller than the original iPhone.

>shown by the iPhone mini.

If anything iPhone mini has shown the market for expensive, mini iPhone is rather small. iPhone SE are still selling well because it fits the market of both price and size conscious segment. Possibly Touch ID although we dont have any Data to back this.

Even in Japan, the market which typically prefer smaller size phones, iPhone Mini has not been making as much sales as many have hoped.

So the people who want smaller phone are also those generally dont care much about latest camera, screen, or tech. And these market also tends to be low margin. iPhone SE starting at $399 is already considered expensive for a small phone.

I guess that is part of the reason why supply chain sources are pointing to a iPhone 14 Max rather than iPhone 14 Mini. Personally I am waiting for the iPhone 13 Mini to drop in price. Or if possible updated iPhone SE with Touch ID on power button.

https://www.engadget.com/japanese-toaster-maker-balmuda-firs...

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/11/meet-this-unique-com...

[+] neutronicus|4 years ago|reply
My wife has declared her intention to buy an SE for her next phone because she hates dealing with the Face ID on her current iPhone
[+] lotsofpulp|4 years ago|reply
> If anything iPhone mini has shown the market for expensive, mini iPhone is rather small.

Maybe, but Apple released the May 2020 iPhone SE 4 years after they released the previous SE, and without announcement, they released a Mini in September 2020. I would expect many people who had wanted a smaller phone to have jumped on the May 2020 SE, and then why would they get a Mini 6 months or even 18 months later?

> iPhone SE starting at $399 is already considered expensive for a small phone.

I would like to know what alternatives are available for cheaper that are the same quality as an iPhone SE.

[+] fomine3|4 years ago|reply
Less sales may come from lack of TouchID. Even if not pandemic, there are plenty of people wear mask in winter. Such people stick iPhone SE/8 because it has still enough spec thanks to great SoC.

Balmuda releases joke. Not considered to viable option for who prefer smaller phones.

"mode1 GRIP" is lower end but interesting mini (width) phone. Its width (56mm) is smaller than iPhone 13 mini (64mm). It's sold only in Japan but I believe base ODM model exists somewhere. https://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/column/hothot/1360240.ht...

[+] p4bl0|4 years ago|reply
> From the maker of the best ( and expensive ) Japanese toaster, Balmuda. But it is $900 though. Even smaller than the original iPhone.

According to the link you posted, it has a 4.9 inch display. How is that "small" by any means? The original iPhone screen was 3.5 inch.

[+] JohnJamesRambo|4 years ago|reply
Unfortunately people like us seem to be the minority. I read the mini iPhones were like 10% of the sales or something and didn’t sell well. I’ve had the same problem of trying to find small android phones. I never found any that were really a substitute for my original iPhone SE.

I think the problem is people use their phone as a computer now so they want a big huge screen. I use a desktop computer or laptop for anything serious and just want a phone that is as unobtrusive and one handed as possible. I lament a generation that only uses a phone for “computing.”

[+] quitit|4 years ago|reply
i find the problem with the mini iphone is that the features of the bigger iphones cast a strong shadow over it. pairing this with people wanting to pay for phones based on screen size alone and it means the mini and other smaller phones don’t have the margin to include new features - essentially they become a one trick pony. during the apple keynote the most time is usually spent showing all of the interesting things that can be done with the new tech - and that’s mostly stuff that doesn’t come on the mini.

as evidence of this: i feel the recent success of the 14” macbook pro is specifically because it packs essentially all capabilities of the 16” model into a compact unit - and with that the price difference between the two is around $200.

[+] godDLL|4 years ago|reply
I don't think that even 1% of Apple's iPhone sales is a small market.

That has to be not it.

[+] smallerfish|4 years ago|reply
Unihertz have some interesting form factors. https://www.unihertz.com/
[+] tazjin|4 years ago|reply
My phone is a Unihertz Atom L, I've had it for a few months now.

It's a good phone. Not the lightest, but the screen is a comfortable size and it has the most important feature of a phone for me - a headphone jack.

[+] bmj|4 years ago|reply
The Jelly was my son's first smartphone, much to his chagrin (imagine being a 15 year old pulling that thing out when your friends had iPhone Xs or whatever massive Samsung phones were on the market at the time). I've been using an old iPhone SE because I love that form factor. The Unihertz Titan is very tempting, though, particularly given the hardware keyboard.
[+] laurensr|4 years ago|reply
Very nice. They even have phones with a keyboard. I assumed only BlackBerry had this.
[+] znpy|4 years ago|reply
I might just pull the trigger and get a titan pocket.
[+] yosito|4 years ago|reply
I've had a Jelly 2 for 6 months. Loving it!
[+] cpdomina|4 years ago|reply
I have been using a Cubot Mini (4") for sometime now (1+ year), and am pretty happy with the experience overall. Feels so good to have a phone that fits in any pocket.

https://cubot.net/Smartphones/king-kong-mini/8

[+] igetspam|4 years ago|reply
I was interested until I saw Android 9. That seems to be the common problem with a lot of these older phones: dated software. We have a car with android auto integration that actually finally works well with h android 11 and better with 12. 9 and 10 were the reason we paid for the built in navigation in the infotainment system.
[+] cehrlich|4 years ago|reply
Looks tempting... two questions: 1. How's the keyboard? I'm specifically wondering about this because at the taller aspect ration the screen is narrower than that of an iPhone 5. 2. How's the battery life? It's obviously not a phone that's designed for hanging out on social media all day, but I'd like to be able to make a few phone/WhatsApp calls without having to run for the nearest charger.
[+] krater23|4 years ago|reply
Looks as exactly the right phone for me. But the amazon comments say it would break after some month/weeks. I can imagine that happens when you treat is as a phone for a construction area, as it looks. But maybee it just dies because it's bad quality. Does anyone have experience with the phone?
[+] znpy|4 years ago|reply
Can you install AOSP/Lineage on that phone?
[+] SahAssar|4 years ago|reply
I have a https://www.unihertz.com/collections/smartphones/products/je... and a palm palm.

They are similar in size for height/width, but the jelly 2 is about twice the depth compared to the palm. Both are around the size of a credit card in width/height.

The palm works well if all you do is occasional sms, phonecalls and very little app useage (like I have my mobile banking app on it). It only runs a older android version (8). Make sure to de-bloat it aggressively if you get it (enable developer mode, connect via ADB and remove anything verizon and everything that sounds like it might have a phone-home "feature").

If you often listen to podcasts/music on your phone and don't want a mid-day charge the palm will not work. The jelly 2 is much more realistic when it comes to battery and with light usage I get 3 days out of it, normal usage (podcasts/music a few hours per day, some surfing and email) I get 1.5 days out of it. I don't use bluetooth headphones though, so not sure how much that impacts it.

I looked at a lot of "small" phones on chinese import sites, but most of them seem to run ancient android (like 4-5) and be really, really slow with bad battery life and questionable quality. Also if I buy from an unknown brand I'd want to run LineageOS to make sure I get updates and can remove potential spyware.

The palm is pretty cheap on ebay and works even if you don't have verizon (I'm in the EU and just removed the verizon apps and used a normal SIM).

In general there are no good options for small phones. The iphone mini is too large for my tastes, the jelly 2 is a bit too thick, and the palm is running old android and has too bad battery. Depending on your usage the palm or the jelly 2 are probably the least bad options.

[+] nabilhat|4 years ago|reply
> ...if all you do is occasional sms, phonecalls and very little app useage (like I have my mobile banking app on it). It only runs a older android version (8). Make sure to de-bloat it aggressively if you get it (enable developer mode, connect via ADB and remove anything verizon and everything that sounds like it might have a phone-home "feature").

These three things go so well together. I have a 5 year old basic Moto that's been stripped down aggressively with ADB. It started as an experiment when battery life went south. I thought I'd be replacing it anyway. Battery life went from 7 hours of sitting quietly to 3-4 days, and suddenly it was a viable phone again. More than viable, in fact the best battery life of any mobile phone I've ever owned.

I'd add Netguard to those steps. Netguard is great for identifying which apps are phoning home, and blocking telemetry from the ones I choose to keep around, like the canned clock or contacts apps.

The few Play Store apps I have get updated by temporarily installing Aurora now and then, the rest come from FDroid. Dropping Play Store is what fixed my battery problem, that's primarily what was gorging on the watt-hours. I think that problem's been mediated since, but I've been fine without it.

[+] TrianguloY|4 years ago|reply
As other users on the thread I also needed to change phone recently (the old one was already 5 years old and was begging for a replacement). I wanted an Android with a headphones Jack connector, and a "you can reach all the screen comfortably with you thumb while using one hand" size, nothing else (not even camera, I simply don't use it other than the occasional qr reading). All "good" results are from even more than 5 year old phones and obsolete versions, and no sign to change unfortunately.

In the end I simply searched for the narrowest possible, and ended with the Xperia 10 III. 68mm wide, Android 11 from 2021, and decently fast. It's looong however (21:9 screen) but very usable with one hand because you can grab it without issue.

[+] vanilla_nut|4 years ago|reply
I’ve looked at the Xperia 10 III (boy, that name) a bit. I just don’t understand the screen choice. What the hell is the point of a super long screen like that? If it was half the height I would be more than happy. Extra height just means it’ll stick out of the top of my pants pocket!
[+] Mogzol|4 years ago|reply
I recently bought a ZenFone 8 specifically for its size, it's slightly shorter than the Xperia 10 III, and the same width. Very easy to use with one hand. I really like it, it has a headphone jack, decent enough cameras, a 120hz screen, and a snapdragon 888, so it's basically as powerful as any other current android flagship, just smaller.
[+] hughmcc|4 years ago|reply
You touched on a possible answer to this question. Android phones tend to be taller and narrower than iPhones, so there’s less need for a special mini device. Also, as an iPhone user I find Android is better optimised for large screens (you can swipe in from either edge to return, buttons are lower on the screen etc.)
[+] alserio|4 years ago|reply
I've similar requirements and I've seen the experia 10 III. Last time I've looked at it, it had uninstallable bloatware like facebook and the facebook services preloaded on it. I don't think it is acceptable. Has this changed? I'm still looking for a decent phone.
[+] Kaibeezy|4 years ago|reply
Pretty sure I read on HN the other day that iPhone minis are below 10% of sales and won’t be continued next gen.

I have to carry two phones for work and really like the second one to be small. Stuck it out with a 1st gen iPhone SE for a long time (headphone jack ftw), whereas the current gen SE is as big as a 6. Bah.

[+] tannhaeuser|4 years ago|reply
Answer: because Android/Google phones need as much screen space as possible to display what little content is left still between the ads ;) Another reason I can see is that phablets tend to hit ground faster than small phones, thereby pouring demand into the feedback loop.

Seriously, there used to be decent Android phones fitting in a pocket but clearly the market seems to have sorted those out. It's one of the reasons I'm using an iPhone after having used Android phones all the time - can't stand precarious phablets. Missing Mobile FF with uBO, though it's not that much of a problem I thought it was given what little browsing I'm still doing, and Safari is working well enough to regain some privacy I guess.

[+] hammock|4 years ago|reply
I'd love to see a quantitative analysis of screen content, ads and screen size over time
[+] jschwartzi|4 years ago|reply
They hit the ground at the same speed but with significantly more impulse.
[+] gsliepen|4 years ago|reply
I am very happy with my Unihertz Jelly 2: https://www.unihertz.com/products/jelly-2
[+] blunte|4 years ago|reply
This looks pretty good. As long as there were a child nearby to do the screen typing for me and read what my eyes cannot see, it would be perfect for me!

Seriously, this could be a great backup phone for traveling. I didn't know it existed... maybe they need more marketing?

[+] ChrisMarshallNY|4 years ago|reply
Would the new Razr be considered "mini"?

https://www.motorola.com/us/smartphones-razr-gen-2

For myself, I love my iPhone 12 Mini, and will lament the loss, if the form factor is deprecated.

[+] vanilla_nut|4 years ago|reply
My problem with foldables as “mini” replacements (because they fit in your pocket) is that I literally do not want the larger screen. I don’t watch videos on my phone, picture viewing is fine on my current 4” screen… I’ve tried a larger screen and it just frustrates me that I can’t get a smaller one.
[+] smallerfish|4 years ago|reply
> Would the new Razr be considered "mini"?

Looks like it'd be pretty thick when folded (certainly would lead to a pocket bulge). And folding screens still have to prove their longevity.

[+] cylinder714|4 years ago|reply
If you're in the U.S. and are okay with Verizon, you're in luck: they sell, in stores only, the Palm Compact Phone by Palm: https://www.verizon.com/smartphones/palm-phone/

I was sorely tempted, but as I'm an inveterate web surfer, a conventional smartphone seemed a better choice.

[+] crobibero|4 years ago|reply
I have this phone, I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone. The main issue I had is the battery doesn’t last more then a few hours with very light use.
[+] PaulHoule|4 years ago|reply
I am not sure what motivates Android phone makers. They sell a lot of phones but make little, no or negative profit.

Apple probably gets more value out of Android than anybody else since Android’s existence keeps Apple out of antitrust court.

[+] AiAi|4 years ago|reply
I suppose that Android is most popular in the mid-range category, which I assume it's where people who cannot afford/or doesn't want an iPhone use their phone as their main device. They need a device that excels in content consumption/gaming, and maybe even work - you probably don't want to watch a movie or play a game in a small screen -, so big is probably better here.

I think people looking for smaller phones think of it more as a secondary device, they have bigger screens on their main devices (desktop/laptop/tablets).

I have an iPhone SE (2016) and I'm looking for a mid-range compact Android device that doesn't weigh ~200g, but I'm giving up. Between availability in my region (or the lack of), phones without development/custom ROM support, and cost/benefit ratio, I'm left mostly with imported Xiaomi devices that a few years back we'd call "phablets".

I've been wanting to replace my iPhone SE for more than a year, even tried a Samsung Galaxy S10e (Exynos version) for a week, but it didn't feel like it worth the price for what I wanted.

The only "compact" Android phone available officially in my region is the Asus Zenfone 8, which is the price of an iPhone 12 Mini, and then it doesn't feel like a good deal in comparison.

There are some seller refurbished Pixels (3, 3a, 4a) on AliExpress, but from some comments, it seems they're using parts with questionable quality.

> but it seems that phone makers who usually copy Apple on everything, just skip this idea at all. If anyone has thoughts on it or a compact model to recommend I'll be glad to hear.

I was also hoping that the iPhone Mini would influence Android manufacturers to make compact phones, since they seem to follow in almost everything else, but seems it won't be the case, unfortunately.

[+] perardi|4 years ago|reply
I know the tech nerd meme is “I just want a phone that does the basics”, but even if you can agree on what “basic” means, actual consumers don’t want that.

This is their computer, and YouTube terminal, and video game console, and camera, and texting device, and banking, and…people use the hell out of their phones. And bigger phones mean you get bigger screens, bigger batteries, and bigger camera assemblies.

Even my mom, who up until last year had an iPhone 5-style SE upgraded to the full-size 12 model, because she wanted the battery life, and the bigger screen that she could, in turn, use the screen zoom feature to help with her aging eyesight. Bigger phones solve lots and lots of problems, at the cost of being maybe 2–4cm taller than “compact” phones.

[+] roosgit|4 years ago|reply
If you want an iPhone mini sized Android phone, you'll probably have to make some serious trade-offs.

According to Wikipedia, the iPhone mini is 131.5 mm tall and 64.2 mm wide. Using the "Phone Finder" on GSMArena, the closest phone dimension-wise, released in 2021, is the Alcatel 1 (137.6 x 65.7). Of course, it runs Android 11 Go because it only has 1GB of RAM. There are also a couple of Samsungs (A01 and M01 Core) at 141.7 x 67.5, but they only go up to 2GB and run Android 10 Go.

So it doesn't look like there are any "premium" Android phones that are close in size to the iPhone mini. Which is a shame.

[+] richajak|4 years ago|reply
It looks like the mass market prefers huge 6in screen and big battery. I have difficulty to find new Android phone that does not make my not-so-big palm tired. I do not need big screen and battery, I will use my laptop or tv to watch videos. The closest decent model in this region is Xiaomi 11 Lite,150g, not too thick nor too wide, snapdragon 732 cpu, etc. It is around usd 250. I did a bit of g search, most of mini phones from other brands are either not produced anymore, low spec, too niche, etc.

I wish others would make something decent, similar to iphone se.

[+] vegai_|4 years ago|reply
The first android phone I still remember owning was Sony/Ericsson Xperia Ray. It was 3.3 inches in size (~51.0% screen-to-body ratio). I could hold the whole device in my hand. It was awesome. Their next model even had a physical keyboard.

Obviously, this wasn't an internet browsing device, although that was possible.