Ask HN: How to find a job in 2021 if I dislike remote?

[throwawayfrmt]

I am pretty extroverted and derive a lot of meaning and enjoyment from working with people IRL, not just across a Slack connection. My previous job went from tolerable to intolerable as a result of the pandemic caused 100% WFH. These days it's hard to find an in office job, and even when you do, it feels like that would be s red flag anyway, since WFH is seen as a perk by most, or realistically I worry I'm going to go in to the office and be the only one there.

I just like being able to grab lunch with coworkers and shoot the shit. I find i care more about my work when I feel more connected to the other people who are affected by it.

(BTW I don't mind partial WFH, thats just obviously beneficial for everyone.)

Are those days just over? Am I doing / thinking about this wrong in some way? Is it not as bad as I think? Are there places out there for weirdos like me?

[niemenmaa]

Before pandemic I started working remotely and soon noticed that, like OP, working alone doesn't suit me.

I solved this by joining a co-working hub that offers offices to remote workers / entrepreneurs. My employer pays for the hub membership.

I drive to our offices around once a month, but rest of the time I sit in a room with an accountant and gym owner. They are fun to chat and go to lunch with but they don't interrupt me with work related things.

As a bonus I get to meet and hang with professionals in many different areas and I find that really satisfying.

If I change company I work for, I just get the new employer to pay for the office. If I need to move, I prefer cities that have this kind of co-working place.

This is quite doable, here in Finland at least and while it has some downsides, it has worked for me!

[alecbz]

Not knocking what works for anyone else, but for me this really doesn't at all address the "working remotely" issue.

Working around a bunch of strangers is better than being alone in my apartment all day, a bit better still if we're in similar industries, but the real thing I want is being physically present with the actual people on my team that I'm working with.

Right now I'm working from my company's local office, but my team is located elsewhere/working remote. It's definitely better than a coworking space IMO, but after one week of flying out to HQ and working with my actual team in person, even just 1-2 of them for most of the week, I realized working from my local office doesn't even come close to how much I enjoy actually being physically present with the people I work with.

[pawelwentpawel]

This is an excellent example of the difference between "working from home" and "working remotely". Those two terms unfortunately are used interchangeably as synonyms.

[Arubis]

+10000%. Coworking is, for me, remote working done right: you get to separate your "work family" from your employer/clientele, which means you can change one without changing the other at your discretion.

[cmrdporcupine]

I am glad to hear I'm not the only person with this idea. I just walked away from 10 years at Google in part because the last almost-2 years of remote just killed my productivity and motivation completely and I need to reset and find something smaller with a higher velocity and creativity and without the 45 minute (one way) commute I had to Google. I didn't like remote, but commuting in also sucked. And even when I went into the office for hybrid, 90% of my coworkers were never there to collaborate with anyways.

So my thought is that in my job hunt even if I find something that's remote (likely given where I live) that I will rent myself an office space nearby where there's other humans, better Internet, and no distractions from wife, kids, dog, garden, skis, bed, living room, TV, etc.

[F30]

How many (online) meetings do you (and the others) typically have? How do you manage the resulting conflicts around quietness, background noise, or even confidentiality of meeting contents?

While I like the idea of shared co-working, the reality is that my current job works best in a room on my own. And it doesn't even involve more than 10 % meetings plus some ad-hoc calls with coworkers.

[cprayingmantis]

If you or anyone else has the time I'd love to talk about what in your opinion makes a great co-working space. Looking into setting up one in the rural region I'm in.

[Demcox]

What a great solution - will keep this in mind!

[PragmaticPulp]

> These days it's hard to find an in office job, and even when you do, it feels like that would be s red flag anyway, since WFH is seen as a perk by most, or realistically I worry I'm going to go in to the office and be the only one there.

> Is it not as bad as I think? Are there places out there for weirdos like me?

Preferring in-office work is actually very common.

Take the news headlines and internet comments with a grain of salt. Even many of the big companies that have temporary WFH are still moving back toward in-office work.

The internet comments and anecdote-filled news articles would have you believe that office work is dead and everybody loves WFH, but my actual experience with companies suggests that a lot of people are realizing they aren’t cut out for WFH or they prefer being in the office. It’s just unpopular to say as much online these days because the people who do prefer WFH are sensitive about any suggestions that it isn’t universally superior.

Frankly, looking at job listings lately I still see far more office jobs than full remote jobs. If you’re looking for a normal office job it shouldn’t be hard to find. However, if you’ve been convinced that non-remote jobs are “red flags” by some of the recent internet hyperbole, this could be clouding your search.

[65]

Just want to say you are not alone. I too want to have a place to go. Whether it's a co-working space or an office for the company I work for, waking up and working in the same place every day is slowly driving me crazy.

The WFH people are probably the most vocal online (especially on Reddit as subreddits tend to create echo-chambers), so it feels as though _everyone_ wants to work from home, but ultimately I think/hope most people understand the social benefits of working in an office.

[g051051]

> ultimately I think/hope most people understand the social benefits of working in an office.

As far as I'm concerned, there aren't any.

But you know what? At the end of the day I don't care where someone works, as long as they extend me the same courtesy. The last place I worked at (before the lockdowns) gradually eliminated WFH, converted to an open plan office, and generally made life miserable for software devs who prefer peace and quiet over socializing at work. I'm much happier working from home, although I have some uncommon advantages there: no kids and amazing internet.

[abyssin]

I’ve decided to switch career because WFH has made me depressed. I simply can’t stand looking at a computer anymore. Working for a company was bearable when I used to be able to get human connections in exchange. I haven’t tried joining a coworking place because I didn’t really have the opportunity, but I think I wouldn’t get the same connection with people who don’t work for the same company as I do.

[alecbz]

> Are there places out there for weirdos like me?

I think the discourse is heavily biased towards pro-remote. We've been working from offices for years, so the pro-remote crowd has been vocal for a while, whereas most pro-office people are only just beginning to realize that they even prefer an office, let alone how much.

But so basically I think it's a completely false notion that preferring remote work is the norm. That sense comes purely from noticing percent of talking.

FWIW I'd generally described myself as pretty introverted, in the sense of finding that social interaction is draining, but I'm considering moving across the country to be closer to my teammates.

[caffeine]

It’s fun to sit in the same room/office and brainstorm and actually build something together.

Gives that sense of camaraderie, we’re-in-this-together feeling, if it’s with the right people.

I also think it’s about 20x more productive if in a high-stakes, high-uncertainty regime.

But the median remote work is probably better than the median in person work, even if the very best work is in person.

Try to imagine starting SpaceX or Apple as a remote company… I think that kind of magic just wouldn’t happen.

[sokoloff]

I think there will be plenty of traditional “come to the office 200+ days a year” tech jobs once COVID is endemic. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if over half of tech jobs offer an in-office experience for employees who want it. For those companies that do, I’d expect over half of employees will choose 100+ days a year in office.

If you want a 5 days/week mandated in-office in Jan 2022, you’re going to have slim pickings. If you want that in Jan 2023, I sure hope that’s fairly common again (just for the implications on C19 endemic status, not because I want to go to an office).

[DylanBohlender]

This depends on broader society accepting that COVID is endemic though, and the cessation of all sorts of regulations. I don't doubt it will happen eventually, but I'm not sure if another year is enough time. There has to be some sort of common knowledge catalyst that changes the general approach; as long as events are still being cancelled due to COVID cases, we're not out of the woods and "living with the disease" quite yet.

Additionally, I think "undoing" the remote workforce transition is going to be nigh impossible for many companies. How do you get your employees back to the office? You probably tell them their employment is contingent on being in the office; that's the only leverage you really have as an employer. Many people have moved since the onset of the pandemic, and with the labor market as tight as it is, few companies are going to be able to stomach laying off employees who moved away and don't want to move somewhere near a physical office location.

So companies have a Hobson's choice: declare an "on-site" culture and axe all the people who no longer wish to be on-site (with no guarantee that you'll be able to hire replacements in a timely manner), or declare a "hybrid" culture and allow people to opt into coming into the office instead of having it mandated (with no guarantee that people will actually show up to the office and make your real estate expenses worthwhile).

I think a lot of companies are going to choose option #2 now, and a lot of those who choose #2 are going to reevaluate that gargantuan office lease expense in a few years' time when comparing the cost with the actual utilization of the space. I think a not-insignificant portion of the option #2 companies will end up being "full remote" companies as a result, it'll just take them a few years to get there. I think the option #1 companies will probably be fine if they're in cities where there's enough talent, but their long-term success is kind of a toss-up in my opinion. It truly depends on whether the social benefits of in-person interaction gives them a competitive advantage versus world-spanning remote companies who can be more selective with their talent.

[severino]

Problem with this is that you don't want to just work in an office, but also have other people from the company work with you at the office. It's different from people who prefer WFH because they don't care if the other guys also work remote or not.

Anyway, at this point of the pandemic, I'd still not feel comfortable having lunch with coworkers in a closed space. I just prefer to have lunch myself alone, or at home, than risking getting infected.

[Raed667]

I have accepted a (slightly) lower pay for a job where I can walk to the office (5-10 minutes) instead of being full remote and monthly fly-ins, or +1 hour of commute each way.

I have to say, this setup has set the bar pretty high. I manage to go the gym before work, have lunch outside with coworkers or have a beer after without being too tired from the commute or too isolated in my own apartment.

It helps a lot when you're living in the center of a city.

[bfung]

> Are those days just over?

Depending on your job function and industry. For tech, yes, those days are over for at least for another 5 to 10 years, is my guess. COVID has generally proven to both employers and employees that productivity doesn't drop that much. It will also weed out bad people managers who need to "see" people physically who need to "get a feel" as a management metric.

The only major factor that would swing the pendulum back into offices, is when future diseases get under control much more quickly - whether that's corona virus or the next version of it, H1N1, avian flu, MERS, covid-19, etc. When the population is smart enough to win those battles quickly, and that there's a company where in-person teams outperform remote teams by a large margin, that's when in-person will be back and the pendulum swing again.

[PragmaticPulp]

> COVID has generally proven to both employers and employees that productivity doesn't drop that much.

I know this is the popular sentiment pushed by remote work fans, but in offline contexts I hear the polar opposite: Productivity struggles are ubiquitous during COVID WFH.

Even the most pro-remote people are quick to admit that COVID WFH is not like normal WFH. Some places even had school closures which meant parents were juggling kids schooling and their jobs. Maybe you worked in a company that didn’t have a lot of employees with these problems, but it has been a significant challenge for many people and companies in the past year and a half.

I managed remote teams long before COVID and even I wouldn’t ever suggest that remote has no effect on productivity. Remote is hard and I’d even say that most people aren’t cut out for it, at least not without significant mentoring and additional management attention.

[jspash]

"COVID has generally proven to both employers and employees that productivity doesn't drop that much"

Is that a personal observation of yours, or has this now become "fact"? The reason I ask is that I would like to find studies - not just surveys or anecdotal evidence - that attempt to quantify the quality and productivity of WFH since the recently pandemic changes.

At work, we've had countless discussions about this and the jury is still out. The introverts claim to be no less than twice as productive, the extroverts claim they are lying and they really miss leaving work early on Fridays to go to the pub - somehow that makes them better employees. Management hate not being able to peer over your shoulder (although they have recently installed "security" software on everyone's laptops for "security purposes"). But I have nothing to point to other than my own experience managing a remote team of devs.

I've yet to come to a solid conclusion as to how it works for others. I only know that my productivity and depth of work has never been greater. So if there are any resources you could point me to I'd be grateful.

[vladvasiliu]

I'd say it also depends a lot on location and its prevalent culture.

Over here in France, most French companies (as opposed to US companies operating here) have to be dragged kicking and screaming into WfH arrangements.

Ever since the pandemic started picking back up steam this autumn, the government was "encouraging" companies to allow people to work from home, but there were no firm directives.

Most companies figured having their employees pile up in the metro (yay covid!) and congest the highways (yay pollution!) wasn't that big of an issue.

They also asked companies to try to stagger arrival / departure times to reduce the number of people in the metro. Didn't work any better.

In my opinion, if OP is living in France (or willing to relocate here), it should be extremely easy to find in-office jobs.

[rsynnott]

> For tech, yes, those days are over for at least for another 5 to 10 years, is my guess.

I'm kind of wondering are half of these comments from an alternate universe. Most tech companies either are planning to reopen their offices or have already reopened their offices. There are a few companies going remote-only, which I suppose is nice if you like that sort of thing (I would quit immediately) but most companies do plan to go back to the office, albeit likely with more flexibility and some permanent-remote employees.

[FpUser]

>"Depending on your job function and industry. For tech, yes, those days are over for at least for another 5 to 10 years"

I think for a good percentage the option might be forever except some once in a while gathering in some local bar / event place / rent a temp workspace / whatever else can substitute

[huntertwo]

> When the population is smart enough to win those battles quickly

Don’t hold your breath.

[sdevonoes]

Don't get it. Even if remote is becoming more common, the vast majority of tech jobs out there are not 100% remote.

Note: a lot of companies are advertising themselves as "100% remote while corona lasts" though.

[PragmaticPulp]

Agreed. I think the OP might be reading too much into HN comments and headlines. Remote work is nowhere near as ubiquitous as HN likes to suggest.

[tablespoonsruby]

I prefer office-based work but it's not the top thing on my list of priorities. I've found that a really high number of companies that otherwise have what I'm looking for are remote, so I've had to compromise.

[chrsig]

> Note: a lot of companies are advertising themselves as "100% remote while corona lasts" though.

This is the thing that gets me...Haven't people in tech figured out how exponential growth works? Covid isn't going away, ever.

[burlesona]

You’re not alone. My startup is specifically going against the trend and trying to hire in just two locations (Austin and SF), because our founding group feels the same as you. So far when we’ve been recruiting people we lead with “we have two offices and strongly prefer candidates work in one of them.” It either ends the conversation or is our #1 selling point.

I think over time the market will discover what percentage of people want remote and which percent want in-person, and then whatever that percentage is, the distribution of companies going remote or not will match.

[curious_cat_163]

Indeed. You are not alone @OP.

BTW, pretty neat trick to help with culture fit for a start-up.

[freddref]

What percentages are you seeing?

[amrox]

Find a company whose product is primarily physical. I work at a robotics company and much of our staff never went remote.

My team is primarily remote but I’m actually hiring an on-site person for IT.

[gwbas1c]

I suspect it depends on where you live. I live in Massachusetts, but because I live too far away from Boston, I need to primarily work remote. (And, oh, I'd much rather be in the office 80-90% of the time.)

Believe me, it's easier to get an in-person job than a remote job! Most positions that I see still want staff primarily in-house.

Do you live in the Bay Area, or in a generally high cost of living area? I suspect the push towards remote in those locations is actually cost-saving, and not a "perk." When I lived in the Bay Area, every job I worked involved working with a lot of remote people who lived in cheaper areas.

If you're willing to move, there's a LOT of on-site work in Massachusetts in and near Boston!

[fer]

Strangely enough, I can't find a remote job (EU). Since the pandemic started I had about 10 solid offers BUT they did bait-and-switch to 1-2 days a week on-site, and I just find a PITA to move my family to get crumbs of remoteness. The ones I'm sure are fully remote tend to only like candidates who are 100% match, as the pool for remote is much bigger.

[PragmaticPulp]

> Strangely enough, I can't find a remote job (EU).

If it’s any consolation, that’s not strange at all. Full remote jobs are actually very rare still, despite all of the headlines and comments suggesting that office work has been ended by COVID.

In-office or partial in-office is still the norm for the vast majority of jobs.

[Simon_O_Rourke]

Similar happened to me with Stripe, an out of left field "by the way we need you in the office for 3/4 days per week when we return". Goodbye and good luck.

[sokoloff]

The latter point makes some sense and is a benefit often pitched to employers considering going remote.

On the general search, “EU” might not be specific enough, as different countries in EU still have wildly differing employment policies, some of which are uncompetitive when an employer can easily choose to avoid them. The Netherlands and France are both “EU” but worlds apart in terms of employment policies.

[keraf]

I'm in the same boat. I found that becoming a regular in a coffee shop and working from there kinda works for me. I take my breaks with the baristas, have chats with other regulars, and I have access to good coffee. Sure, it's not the same as having colleagues but there's still human contact and you meet interesting people from different industries. Alternatively, I was thinking of joining a co-working space but for now the coffee shop works well.

[jstx1]

Do you live in/near a big city? If you do, there should be enough in-office jobs there.

I feel similarly about remote but with a couple of differences:

- I'm not extroverted all, I still vastly prefer office over remote.

- It's not about socialising, I find the work itself much better when I can meet my coworkers in person.

[smugglerFlynn]

I don’t see any solution, just want to mention you are not a “weirdo”, and it is not weird to feel that way.

[telesilla]

Could you find a large, fun coworking environment? The right place could quickly give you the same benefits.

[pydry]

I feel somewhat similar. Ironically before COVID I really wanted to go remote but was reluctant because it seemed few of the "good" jobs in my time zone were remote. They were lower pay/lower impact.

Now the job market appears to be reversed and the in person jobs are not the best. And, after a year and a half it seems evident that I don't really like remote work as much as I thought I would.

[ianai]

Per Scott Galloway's latest slide deck (it's on YouTube), he's convinced me the WFH push is an opportunity for those willing to work from work to lap the WFH crowd. Companies actually do still need people to work from the office/place of business. A worker willing to work at the office/business is thus at a competitive advantage to the much larger population of WFH-ers.

(However...I really would prefer a hybrid mode. But after having the economy jettison me in 2008/2009 it's definitely past time to exploit any competitive advantages for me...)

[twobitshifter]

I don’t know who Scott Galloway is but I can see that being true where the executives are being dragged into wfh against their will. If you have a remote first command and strong support from the top I think that wfh employees can still succeed.

[dmitrygr]

Join any of the companies attempting to force a return to office. When all of us who refuse this nonsense quit, the companies will be hungry to hire anyone.

[Simon_O_Rourke]

That's the truth. Any recruiters offering a half hearted "hybrid for now" approach will get quite a shock in the next six months.