Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

[b112]

I've been using Google Maps a long time, and during all of that time I have only used GPS for location tracking on Android.

Depending upon the version of Android, I've had different things disabled. Wifi scanning. Bluetooth. Cell location data. Etc. Always with one single goal -- GPS only for location.

And further, this is always, especially with newer versions of Android, restricted in many ways. For example, only allowing when an app is active, and so on.

Google has always played games with Maps, using dark patterns. For example, with the versions prior to the current version, if I wanted Maps to zoom in on my location, I'd hit the tracking button.

It'd first say something like "To continue, turn on device location". Of course, device location is on, but it's only for GPS, and google so badly wants that (apparently) vital, and sweet wifi + bluetooth + cell tracking data.

Yet you could cancel this before, and it would then zoom in on your present location. Because, of course, GPS works fine for that.

I could also use only GPS, leaving wifi and bluetooth and so on scanning off to use navigation. I've driven all over North America and Europe that way too, and yes with Maps. Tricky dark patterns (ie, lying) about needing wifi scanning to find a route is just insulting, and absurd.

Now, enter a new update. I can no longer navigate with Google Maps, unless full location tracking is on. Comments in Play Store indicate others hit the same wall. Yeah, right Google, driving in the middle of the country, with GPS, is helped by scanning wifi while I pass farmer's fields?!

Google has now drawn a line in the sand. Give us all your local SSIDs, local bluetooth connections, with likely even more detail, or they now refuse to allow you to use Maps to navigate.

I immediately installed Organic Maps, and I'm sure there are loads of others as an option.

Google wants that wifi data so bad, that the only thing I can equate it to, is a used car salesperson. I get the impression that the Maps team is channeling Sméagol, and just shudder.

[dessant]

Refusing service when the user does not consent to non-essential data sharing is illegal in the EU, and it also breaches Google Play's developer agreement. WiFi scanning is not essential to navigate with an app, and the least they could do to follow the law is to gracefully degrade the service if the user does not consent to share data about nearby devices, such as disabling traffic predictions.

Of course Google's lawyers will argue that this data is in fact required for navigation, the same way some banks in the EU now claim "legitimate interest" when they send you a message about their credit card promotions with winnable prizes, after you've explicitly opted out from all marketing communications.

[dsl]

> non-essential data sharing

But it is essential. Google (and Apple) maps provide lane specific navigation directions, which are really only possible with assisted GPS. In theory GPS has the accuracy, but remember you are in a big metal box filled with electrical wires. Not to mention other applications like isle specific navigation within stores, which is made possible by bluetooth beacons.

Heck, we are on the verge of a major world conflict where GPS accuracy may be degraded intentionally by the US or jammed by other forces.

Edit: Navigation is used in situations other than racing down the autobahn at 100 mph. Wifi triangulation is used when you are doing 20 mph on a busy street and need to be in the right lane to make a turn, or when you are walking down the street and need to know which unmarked door is the business you are looking for.

Here is some background on why GPS is shit in urban environments: https://vitalalert.com/markets/positioning-smart-cities/3d-p...

[moritonal]

Can't believe I'm on this side of the debate, but at what point are we asking too much for free?

Google provide Maps for free to an incredible accuracy and value. Unlike Apple, the user is welcome to use any other app, and yet chooses to use Google Maps.

You could maybe argue that Google Maps is part of a package you bought the phone for, but realistically I think the solution is Google are just open about the use of data (which they are really) and offers a paid solution that doesn't track you.

[thrtythreeforty]

I got hit with this pop-up. It is a charade, despite the UI making it feel like a technical requirement.

And here is how I know it is a charade: voice navigation and the map itself both work perfectly in the background of this undismissable pop-up.

This is the most coerced I've felt in a long time and I can't help but feel that maybe iOS users don't feel this way.

[dylan604]

>and it also breaches Google Play's developer agreement

Why do you think the Goog's apps are bound to the same terms as other developers? That agreement allows devs use Goog's services.

[loceng]

It arguably may allow the navigation to be more accurate, even if a tiny amount, though it obviously isn't strictly required since navigation works without the data.

[agilob]

>and the least they could do to follow the law is to gracefully degrade the service

They were already doing it and asking us to turn on camera to "better calibrate my location".

[jdiez17]

While I'm not sure if this change to Google Maps has been or will be widely rolled out, you may want to look into what GrapheneOS is working on with their Google Play compatibility layer [1]. It basically lets people use Google's services inside Android's standard app sandbox. That means they don't get access to privileged system APIs and can only access what the user chooses. It can also be used without a Google account.

GrapheneOS is working on a way to redirect the Play services location APIs to an open source implementation of those APIs which uses standard Android location APIs [2]. It's expected to be available in an upcoming release [3].

[1] https://grapheneos.org/usage#sandboxed-google-play

[2] https://developer.android.com/reference/android/location/Loc...

[3] https://twitter.com/GrapheneOS/status/1486182874567122945

[ForHackernews]

> to an open source implementation of those APIs

Is this MicroG? https://microg.org/

[citizenpaul]

I wondered how long before google will have a reason for grapheneOS to suddenly stop being supoorted on the pixel. Now i know it will be soon and i get to tell everyone i told you so

[dreamcompiler]

Here we go again. Users desperately need an abstraction layer in Android that can spoof sensor data on a per-application basis. In this case, the spoofing layer could be set up such that whenever Google Maps uses the Android API to ask "Is wifi location sensing turned on" the spoofing layer would say "Yes." When GM asks "What wifi networks are around?" the spoofing layer would say "None." (Even better would be for it to just make up a bunch of random wifi SSIDs to pollute Google's wifi database with noise.)

I have several other apps (Twitter for example) who are able to tell that I have notifications for them turned off, and consequently they bug me to turn on notifications. I need a spoofing layer that tells Twitter "notifications are turned on" even when they're off, because if the app can tell some feature is turned off it will bug me or in some cases fail to work at all. So it's also critically important that there be no way for applications to figure out that the spoofing layer is in place.

[KennyBlanken]

Xprivacy basically did this. I supported the developer by buying the "pro" version and he promptly stopped maintaining it...and started a new project that was substantially more complicated/difficult to use, requiring writing blocking rules by hand...or paying him for the "pro" service that included 'recipes' for blocks.

Which users of the old app didn't get.

Fuck you, Marcel Bokhorst.

[em-bee]

big yes to this.

whenever an app asks for a permission i want these options:

    allow
    deny
    pretend allow but send empty responses (like no wifi found)
    pretend allow but send fake responses

[titzer]

Can't happen. Maps uses Google Location Services, which is built into Android and replaces the default, raw-sensor location provider for all applications. They have sunk their rootkit deep. You can't do this without uninstalling Google Play Services.

[app4soft]

> I immediately installed Organic Maps, and I'm sure there are loads of others as an option.

Here are OSM-based maps applications for Android.[0,1]

Not all OSM-based Android apps listed on OpenStreetMap Wiki, so check out also maps apps in various F-Droid repos.[2]

Also here are maps apps for Symbian[3,4] and Maemo[5].

For other platforms there are also a lot of other apps.[6]

[0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Android#OpenStreetMap_ap...

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Android_ap...

[2] https://apt.izzysoft.de/fdroid/

[3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Symbian

[4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/S60Maps

[5] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Software/Maemo

[6] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Software

[uneekname]

Does anyone have a favorite that has worked well for them?

[jonas21]

Are you sure they're not doing this to get approximate location for use with A-GPS? Sure, GPS will work without it, but your time to first fix is going to be much longer, and your phone will have no idea where you are while you're waiting for that fix.

There's a good overview of A-GPS in module 5 here [1]. This is just how people expect GPS to work on modern mobile phones, to the point where they'd probably consider it a bug if they had to wait a while to get a fix.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CBINyC3NWU&list=PLGvhNIiu1u...

[jrockway]

I think cold start times on modern GPS units are on the order of 30 seconds now. Even if you lose all almanac and ephemeris data, and don't know what time it is. AGPS is nice (2s cold start times), but by no means essential for a decent user experience.

(The datasheets are not a lie. I have had a ZED-F9P on the shelf for a month or so. Plugged it in and had a fix in 32 seconds. The delay was that I could only see 3 GPS satellites, so had to fall back to the slightly slower multi-constellation warm start.)

[bryceacc]

that most definitely is the reason to ask for wifi scanning, but the point was reiterated many times in the post. This is about privacy AND the fact that GPS-only navigation works globally just fine. If the user wishes to have that improved cold start approximate location then sure, turn on wifi scanning. If they do not wish to give that up, they should still be able to navigate

[kelnos]

I thought AGPS was just the download of almanac/ephemeris data from a server on the internet. I didn't think it had anything to do with figuring out location using visible wifi APs or anything like that. Sure, you need an internet connection to download the AGPS data, but that could also be your cellular data connection and not wifi.

[M4v3R]

AGPS works with cellular, Wi-Fi is not required. So no, it’s not only for this reason.

[philsnow]

Not related to Google maps, but just today I got tired of the Amazon app sending me "you might like this deal" notifications and dug into whether it's possible to disable them.

You can, but if you do, Amazon will no longer send Amazon "Smile" micro-donations to whatever charity you've selected: https://i.imgur.com/wNAkUAT.jpeg .

I can't say that this is underhanded, but it does cast into sharp relief the fact that Amazon is a $1.5 trillion dollar company that generates upwards of $3B in yearly profit, and they're jerking you around, dangling the pennies they would otherwise send to a charity, unless you let them feed you product recommendations in OS notifications. (If you just disallow the entire Amazon app from sending notifications, as far as I can tell they still give the charity whatever 0.5% cut.)

So I have to choose between 1) allowing them to send me product recommendations, 2) a poor UX because I don't get any notifications at all, or 3) just not sending the charity any of the scraps of my Amazon transactions. I chose 3 and cut the charity a larger check than usual.

[floatingatoll]

That's probably a violation of the App Store Review Guidelines; you're not allowed to withdraw app functionality unrelated to notifications if a user denies notification access; Apple has various language in various places that hints at 'you can't arbitrarily take away features to compel users to opt-in' being a core intent. If you're an Apple developer, and you're willing to stake that claim with Apple, you can report it while logged in to your developer account.

[mhardcastle]

Shopping at Amazon has become such a blatantly user-hostile experience. More than any company I've dealt with in recent memory, they seem to tolerate just about any unethical behavior - allowing fake product reviews, facilitating sale of counterfeit merchandise, and evidently withholding charitable donations if you don't allow them to pester you via your own device.

It's to the point that shopping at Amazon feels dirty to me. Why support a company that's doing everything it can to transfer your well-being to Jeff Bezos?

[busymom0]

On iOS, such marketing notifications is supposed to be against the developer guidelines but I regularly see Uber, Ubereats and other high profile companies break those rules without any repercussions.

[aceazzameen]

Is uninstalling the app and using the website in a browser an option? This is what I prefer to do.

[Minor49er]

Why not just set aside some money yourself and donate to a charity of your choosing without tying it to how you spend your money on Amazon? Making your donations directly will help you better see how your money will be used. For example, Girls Educational & Mentoring Services (GEMS) tells you basically how contributions are used when you donate to them:

https://www.gems-girls.org/donate-now

[cush]

If you have an iPhone and haven't been using Apple Maps, it's basically on par now with Google Maps for navigation. I hadn't tried Apple Maps for years because of how bad it used to be, and was pleasantly surprised to find the maps are incredibly accurate and turn by turn navigation is rock solid. I haven't touched Google Maps in months, and this post is reminding me that it's time to just uninstall it

[fatboy]

Are you in the US? I've found it pretty ropey in Europe every time I try to ween myself off Google maps.

Another benefit of Apple maps is that it gets preferential treatment from the os in that it appears on the lock screen when navigating (I really wish this api was open to third parties). This is nice for navigation on foot.

[mint2]

Apple Maps has better integration with my 2020 Subaru so I switched. It has some features that are more advanced than google, like the voice telling what to do next or advance rather than just immediately before.

It’s still rather bad about explorative searching for businesses/restaurants and getting accurate hours, so sometimes I’ll find a place using google maps and then put it into Apple Maps.

[NovemberWhiskey]

It is amazing how long it takes to recover from a rough product roll-out, isn't it?

[lern_too_spel]

iPhones are strictly worse for what OP is complaining about. You cannot get your location at all in any app without enabling WiFi scanning.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21708157

OP's solution of installing another Android maps app is probably the best available option that fits OP's privacy requirements.

[WelcomeShorty]

What I found is that google maps EXCELS in redirecting past traffic jams and what have you, when driving (cross Europe) and really no other navigation available to me (iPhone) does that even remotely as reliable.

EDIT: Meaning I am able to keep my wheels rolling and do not end up in traffic jams.

[soperj]

Apple maps has still been total crap for me outside the US.

[rootusrootus]

A little while back my area finally got the Apple Maps 3D visualization update, and I have to say I'm pretty impressed. Took them some time to turn it around, but Apple definitely stepped it up after an awful start.

[jeffbee]

This is an odd response to this specific discussion, because Apple removed the user ability to disable wifi scans for location services in iOS 11. If anything, Apple is worse in this specific regard.

[mcast]

Maybe someone should build a portable (FCC compliant?) device to put in your car that spoofs and rotates a bunch of 2.4/5Ghz SSIDs periodically to "trick" apps that mine wifi data with GPS location. Bonus points for bogus names like "Starbucks Wifi" or "McDonalds Free Wifi" in the middle of the highway.

Even easier, just reverse engineer the API and send the SSIDs yourself.

[causality0]

I have regarded the entire Google Maps dev team with utter contempt since they first combined maps and navigation into one app, thereby preventing you from using both at the same time.

At this point I'd rather use a paper map then let Google wardrive using my phone 24 hours a day.

[unit_circle]

Try OSMAnd.

I started using it because it allows you to download huge areas as vector maps for offline use. But I find myself slowly using it more and more. The only things missing that keep me using gmaps are search, reviews / places, and directions that factor traffic (not a biggie tbh). However, I've been playing with mapbox and, without any prior experience whatsoever got a traffic overlay working within a few hours with a free account. I believe they provide the other parts (search, routing & places) too, I just need to figure out how to plumb them in.

I have tried a ton of map apps and IMO OSMAnd has all the pieces to be a serious competitior, at least for technical folks, with just a little bit of commercialization... The gmaps moat is not as deep or as wide as it seems.

If you are an OSMAnd dev reading this, I will happily pay a monthly fee for this stuff if provided as a cost plus package... I get a ton of value out of the app already, already pay for it and hate Google maps more with every passing day.

[dTal]

They've always been coercive. You've never been able to use GPS passively without Play Services phoning your location home to Google, since the earliest days of Android. They would pop up a confirmation box asking you to agree to data collection, and if you declined, then GPS would remain off. It was a major influence in my decision to never, ever run a Googled Android on my phone. I just can't trust any company with that level of invasive surveillance. It's my line in the sand.

[dzhiurgis]

I don't like this being forced on you, but who the hell cares about wifi/bt SSID sniffing? What's so bad about collecting it?

You are literally broadcasting it yourself and on most devices you can't even turn broadcasting off anymore.

[beermonster]

So how about OsmAnd[0] ?

Supports fully offline mobile navigation.

[0] https://osmand.net/

[bkovacev]

What are some reliable alternatives for both iOS and Android? I'm unsure how are Apple Maps, but they were hideous a while back for Eastern Europe at least.

[throwaway997665]

This is your monthly reminder that Google absolutely does not care about your or anyone else's privacy. They only care about building a higher resolution view of the little ant farm of humanity that they think they own.

> Google has now drawn a line in the sand. Give us all your local SSIDs, local bluetooth connections, with likely even more detail, or they now refuse to allow you to use Maps to navigate.

Oh, that's not the half of it. If GLS's data harvesting practices (including its completely inadequate "anonymization" methods) were made public, you'd realize that your phone is uploading literally everything that could possibly be related to location tracking to Google as often as possible, including sensor traces accurate enough to locate you to less than a meter, what floor of a building you are on, etc.

[imglorp]

I'm pretty sure this is to improve the crowd-sourced database of WIFI AP's.

Google was involved with Skyhook for a while and there's no reason to think they stopped using similar tech. It's really that simple: war drive to build a map of AP to location, remove any that seem to move around (ie trains), and then you can use the database to map an AP sighting to location in the client. Trilateration on signal strength for extra points.

Source: worked with them.

Ref: https://law.justia.com/cases/massachusetts/court-of-appeals/...

[mschuster91]

> Of course, device location is on, but it's only for GPS, and google so badly wants that (apparently) vital, and sweet wifi + bluetooth + cell tracking data.

I'd believe this has been made to reduce the number of "Maps takes soooo long to acquire my position on the map / can't find me when I'm in a building" complaints. A WiFi scan will be very quick (to the tune of 1-5s) to establish rough coordinates, a GPS TTFF can take minutes or be outright impossible.

[mdavidn]

Rather than assume malice, a more charitable and entirely plausible interpretation is that the Google Maps team simply does not test this configuration. A recent change to Google Maps or Android unknowingly broke it, akin to genetic drift. All phones collect MAC addresses from nearby WiFi devices to speed up the initial GPS satellite fix. Apple does this too.

[mikece]

How much of your information does Google want? MORE!

This is a big reason why I carry a Graphene OS phone... and searched eBay for a Garmin GPS -- that cannot phone home! -- for my car.

[hockey]

Google Maps is a pretty big application. Have you considered that this might have been a mistake? Refactoring legacy codebases isn't always without regressions.

If you file a bug report (especially if there are a bunch of others filing them) then the people in charge of this stuff won't be able to claim they didn't know about it.

Open maps > help and feedback > send feedback

And remember, Every good bug report needs exactly three things:

1) Steps to reproduce, 2) What you expected to see, and 3) What you saw instead