Ask HN: Should I move to California or Germany as a SWE with 2 small kids?

[de_or_ca]

I'm at a crossroads in my life. My wife and I are trying to figure out if we should move back to California or move to Germany to be closer to her parents.

A bit of background: We're in our mid-30s. Both in tech. I'm a software engineer. She's a product manager. I'm American and she's German. We met in SF in 2014 and left together in 2017. We traveled for a while, then moved to Amsterdam where we live now. We have a 1 year old daughter with another on the way in October. We don't plan on having more kids after that. We'd like to leave the Netherlands soon, but haven't decided yet if we should move back to California or move close to her parents in Germany.

There's tons of variables to consider, but the 2 main ones I'm focused on right now is the tradeoff between family support vs career prospects. In short: if we move to Bavaria, my wife's parents would be a huge help with our kids. They're natural and eager grandparents and they're great with our daughter. But, they live in a small village in Bavaria. If we moved to Germany, I assume we'd want to be close to them, so we'd end up in a similarly small village near them.

My family is scattered around CA and NY and, while it'd be nice to be closer to them, I don't think we'd get nearly the same kind of natural support network from them. If we did move to CA though, I assume we'd move closer to either my Dad (down in San Diego) or my Mom (around Sacramento).

On the career side, I'm assuming our career options and pay would be a lot higher in CA. I work as a senior eng at a large tech company and based on levels.fyi, it looks like my SF colleagues make somewhere between 2 and 4 times what I do. I know money isn't everything, but I've experienced the pain and stress that not having enough causes. I see it with all my family members now. Since moving to the Netherlands, I haven't been able to save or invest nearly as much as I could back in CA. Maybe it's the American in me, or a vestige from my childhood, but I feel uneasy not building more wealth. Money smooths everything over - from relationships, to the options you have available, to the time you can buy with it. But, that additional pay would come at the expense of being more on our own raising our kids, which adds another set of stressors and difficulties. Additionally, for the sake of our kids, we think it'd be good for them to have more involved relatives.

Any SWE parents out there who have insights? How hard is it raising kids in CA if you have limited family support? What's your quality of life in CA as a parent? Does cost of living eat up all the additional money I assume we could make? We'd eventually like to buy a house, but the markets seem so crazy that even with the pay raises I wonder if we could swing it.

What about quality of life and career prospects in Germany? Anyone living there have any insights? Since we'd be looking at being closer to my wife's parents, I think we'd need to find remote work, so that would also be a limiting factor. I'm assuming we couldn't build as much individual wealth, but perhaps the services of the state compensate enough for that and I should let go of that obsession?

[mucio]

Move to Germany. Probably you had to move a bit earlier for you to enjoy the full parental leave here, but grandparents will be a great support.

Do not worry much about the small village, actually use the opportunity (lower costs) to invest in your German (learn as much as you can with classes and talking with the people around you).

Quality of life in Germany is much better than in the USA. Kita places are hard to find in Berlin, but you will be probably more lucky in a small town.

When you daughter will be 6 she will start school, and in Germany kids cannot skips school days, so you will be forced to stay put except for the short holidays during the year (when everybody is travelling too), my suggestion is to see Bavaria as a starting point to visit Italy, Austria, Germany and other countries around (at least for the first years).

Regarding careers as SWE you both should not have any problem. Worst case scenario they will require you to go to the office for a couple of days once the pandemic is finished, but it will be quite hard to enforce that :)

Also your kids will not do shooters drills in school

[mcv]

Yeah, the US sounds rather hostile to raising children, from everything I hear. Not just the school shootings, but also being unable to play outside, no biking to school, and the way politics seems eager to politicise everything about education there.

I'd definitely pick Germany. Actually, I'd pick Netherland, because that's where kids are apparently the happiest in the world, but Germany sounds like a great alternative.

And grandparents nearby is a boon to any young parent.

[joss82]

> Also your kids will not do shooters drills in school

This.

Also you will pay a bit more taxes but since you have kids, those taxes will be offset by the plethora of free or cheap services you will get for your children: kindergarten, school, and higher education.

[lazypenguin]

Good grandparents are underrated!

[elevanation]

Bavaria, for the following reasons, IMHO:

1. Family in a quality German rural setting: Over the long term, healthy and functional family relationships are meaningful source of fulfillment, and make everything else in your life just a little bit easier. In combination with the quality rural life in many areas of Germany, it is a healthy foundation for friends, family, and children.

2. A geographically independent career: Depending on your career choices, and if money is a priority for you, you can make great money while being geographically independent. There are many different ways to accomplish this depending on how much time/effort you wish you invest, and which options you would consider.

3. Quality of life: While I am generalizing here, IMHO, the quality of friendships, family, and social connections is better in Bavaria than California. Of course this depends on your exact situation, which street you are living on, where your family & friends live, the social infrastructure of the town, etc etc.

4. Better health and safety in Bavaria: as can be found in public statistics.

5. Social development for children in Germany: For the most part, I find the quality of the social upbringing and education system in Bavaria better than California (again, generalizing, as there are bad and good patches anywhere). Speak with a few high school graduates from California and from Bavaria, and note your observations. For example I observe: How mature are they as young adults? How well-adjusted are they? How grounded do they seem?

Background: I am a career mentor with long-term US and German experience.

[rurban]

You forgot that Bavaria has still a travel warning advisory, due to incompatibilities with the German constitution and their police ordonances.

https://www.lawblog.de/archives/2017/07/20/bayern-endloshaft...

Rather move to one of the democratic german states, where the police cannot put you into prison forever, without trial.

[zeroego]

I'd like to echo what the other commenters said when they say consider the education of your kids. I'm from the US, but student taught in Germany while I studied abroad. The quality of the education and the sheer amount of resources Germany gives its youth is something to be admired. They will receive a quality education, have recess, and have extra curricular activities that are holistically incorporated into their education. They will not have standardized tests shoved down their throats from a young age (though there are standardized tests in Germany but their purpose and implementation is much different), active shooter drills, and lack of resources (think school counselors, textbooks, food, extra curricular activities).

My experience is based off of working in 4 different schools in the Berlin area over the course of 6 months, so my experience in limited. German society is far from perfect, there are many valid criticisms of how they do things there. But, having experienced both the US and Germany there is almost no comparison in terms of how young people are brought up.

As far as your salary goes, I hear you. I'd like to return to Germany, but know I'll make far more money in the USA. I have heard that senior devs in Berlin can crack the 100k euro mark, though there are taxes to consider. I would still say it's worth it. You will have time to spend with your kids, you won't be worked to death, you'll be seen as a human being and not simply a cog. There are some exceptions to that, some German companies genuinely suck while some US companies are great with their work/life balance. But, your chances of finding a healthy balance will be much higher in Germany. Best of luck to you!

[danielfoster]

Cost of living and quality of life will be much better in Germany, unless you count talking to your kids from the rear view mirror during a traffic jam as bonding time.

As an American living in Germany, I have also heard from Americans that even good German schools are too rigid and inflexible. You should consider what the schools look like and how they could be better in some ways and worse in others.

Flying to New York from Germany isn’t much different from CA, so I wouldn’t worry about that. I think the family support in Germany is worth having, too.

Any chance you can work for a US company remotely?

[tlogan]

California Über Alles As a person who lived both in Germany (Baden-Württemberg) and Califorina I will strongly suggest California.

Here are some pluses:

- California has better salaries

- California has much more opportunity (starting company is easier, etc.)

- California has much nicer weather. And beautiful coast and mountains. And desert (Palm Springs and Coachella Valley area) is great too.

- California is in US (thus you can move anywhere else)

- Your kids will have more opportunity when they grow up

- Health care is much much better - yeah insurance is a problem but actual care is much better. When you end up in hospital you will see that California's 2:1 to 4:1 ratio of nurses to patient is much much batter than Germany's 10:1.

- California is much more diverse than Germany and that helps with your personal growth.

[Einstant]

California Uber Alles!! California always and forever. There is indeed gold in them thar heels, no matter what they do to San Francisco. Los Angeles is vibrant, yet car laden. Money is way better in California, and you won’t be seen as — uncivil, overly ambitious; too American, with American expectations, and a workaholic. In Europe they work to live, here we sleep in the factory or the offices. You can incorporate a new agency in seconds! USA #1

[jamal-kumar]

30000* Germany.

You get like an entire month paid vacation. Companies are incredibly thirsty for talent there and job security is high. The people are very nice and the job pay isn't worse enough to worry about being poor. Most large cities are within a few hours of whatever small town, so you don't have to be in the middle of a field somewhere if that isn't ideal. And for your kids the education system is waaaaaaay better.

More importantly what does your wife really want?

[tpetry]

* Paid vacation

* Paid maternity leave for both parents

* High job security (it's hard to fire someone)

* Working health care system which doesn't cost you anything if you get sick

These are big reasons for Germany. And with remote work you don't have to work for small companies in the small Bavarian town you are moving to. You can work for any in Germany or sometimes even in Europe or the US.

[de_or_ca]

She's quite torn. She doesn't actually like Germany all that much. She left about 8 years ago, and has never worked there. But, she's an only child, and she's very close to her parents. So, in addition to the support they could provide in raising our family, she feels guilty about leaving them in Germany.

If it weren't for her parents, she said she would push for the US. For all its problems, she likes how friendly and open people are. She often complains when interacting with other Germans about how unnecessarily unfriendly and closed off they can be.

We've discussed the possibility of bringing her parents to the US, assuming we moved there, but that would be a long process, and challenging. She would need to live there 5 years to qualify for citizenship, then she would need to revoke her German citizenship (which she would find very hard to do), and then the process of getting visas for the parents can take another few years. So we're looking at like a 7-8 year process.

Her feelings about Germany do give me a bit of pause about moving there. I've always enjoyed myself in Germany, but my German is rudimentarily (I'm taking classes now to fix that) and I've never actually lived there, so I don't think I can rely on my experience as a visiting foreigner to my experience as an immigrant.

[majewsky]

> You get like an entire month paid vacation.

More like 1.5 months realistically. Four weeks is literally the legal minimum.

[Tarsul]

I really wonder how this thread would've fared if you had posted it at a different time. Because you posted it in the afternoon in Europe, so you probably received more attention from Europeans.

However, as a German myself I'd agree with most of the other posters. Your (presumably) high US salary isn't everything (especially considering the high costs of eduction, health care, housing etc. in the US). Salaries in Germany are very good compared to other European countries (comparable to Netherlands), you can live a great life there. Probably not FIRE, but o well... (also think about how the world might look in 20 years wrt climate change)

You posted that your wife has a split opinion of Germany, that Germans aren't necessarily the most welcoming (friendly yes, but it often isn't easy to become friends in Germany). That's why you should really look at least for a region/city that has a little higher population so that you can find people with whom you share hobbies. That would make it much easier to get similar-minded friends.

And similar to what another poster said: There's nothing greater than letting your kids bike to school.

[uberman]

Not long ago, my spouse was offered an academic position in southern CA. For us, housing was the veto even though the other aspects of the job including salary were better. The issue was that houses at the end of the international runway were a million bucks. To replicate what we have now would have required an hour commute and 5.5 million bucks. We also have kids so I think we are in a similar demographic.

So, I think you definitely want to take a look at housing and schooling, particularly if you are not sitting on a large amount of cash. I also recommend you read the book "The Wealthy Barber".

Food for thought...

700k in Santiago gets you:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/6518-Plaza-Blvd-San-Diego...?

700k in Bavaria gets you:

https://www.engelvoelkers.com/en-de/property/stilvolles-mode...

[tailsdog]

Those property comparisons are way way off - Passau is in the middle of nowhere - if you wanted a house like that close to Munich it would cost millions and it's even a struggle to find one available.

Housing in decent locations in Bavaria is very expensive and in very short supply compared to San Diego.

[koinedad]

I am a SWE in CA with 5 kids and no family support. We make it work…it’s hard but we have each other. Europe seems very different than US/CA for SWE so there’s likely a trade off there as well. One suggestion is to maybe focus on building up the initial wealth for a few more years while the kids are younger and then reassess. If you’re diligent you could get both. Family support/babysitting is helpful ideally until the oldest is middle school age where they then can start watching the younger ones. We also homeschool and I believe it’s illegal in Germany so that limits some education options.

[ocius]

I'm a Software Engineer from Germany, living in Switzerland and Germany.

Working in tech you'll have more than enough to live a very good life in Germany. While the absolute amount may not be as much as in the US, the amount relative to the average person will still be very good, particularly if you choose to live in the countryside, but also if you choose to live in the city.

Quality of life is very similar to Amsterdam / Netherlands, so you don't have to expect huge differences there. Bavaria is a bit more on the traditional side, and you might actually notice that (e.g. shops close very early / not at all on Sundays). While shops in Germany are generally closed on Sundays, they are open late in many of the other states (10pm, or even 12pm in the cities).

Career prospects are good to very good, particularly in Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg (neighboring states), which are the most prosperous states in Germany. In the countryside, you may have to resort to Home Office or working in a Mittelstand Unternehmen, though. Most larger cities have a small startup culture if that is your thing.

[eterpstra]

"My wife's parents would be a huge help with our kids. They're natural and eager grandparents and they're great with our daughter."

This is absolutely priceless no matter where you live.

[peppertree]

I would also consider what's lined up in California. If at least one of you have an offer lined up at FAANG then go for it. Otherwise working remote in Germany is a better bet.

[cameldrv]

Depending on your network in SF, you may be able to source contract work from there while working in Germany. If you can put up with not having local coworkers, you can get SF rates and pay small-town Bavaria costs and have her family to help with the kids.

Even if you commute into Munich, software developers in Germany don't get paid any where near what they do in the U.S.

One word of advice if you go down this path is to get very high quality tax advice. Contracting from overseas as an American involves the interaction between two tax systems, and it can be complicated. For example, if you don't structure the work in the right way you can end up paying U.S. self employment tax (about 15%) on your earnings.

[keiferski]

Consider a third option: Switzerland. Salaries will be considerably higher than Germany and you’re only a few hours away (by train) from Bavaria.

[BrandoElFollito]

The work safety wild be lower, though (similar to the at-will system in the US). This may make a difference since OP has kids.

[reacharavindh]

I’m with a similar background (30s, Indian(having lived in India, USA, Denmark and now Netherlands) with an Austrian wife, who I met in the US. I have a kid.

I’d vote for Bavaria as well. But, I’m more curious to listen to why not Netherlands. Would you care for a chat over beer/coffee in the Amsterdam, Amstelveen area?

Email on my “about” section of HN profile.

[stareatgoats]

I'm neither an SWE parent, nor American or German so I can't advice on anything related to those. Instead I think you should also consider this (ultimately more important I think FWIW): What nationality do you want your children to be? If the thought of your children growing up to be Germans is unbearable to you but if the thought of your children being Americans is acceptable to your wife then you should chose CA, and vice versa. A lot of tension tend to occur in families where one or both parents come from a different culture than the one their children grow up in.

If you plan to be in one country when they are young and then make a move to the other country when they are older then that is also something I would advice against, better chose one country and stick with it. At least in my experience, people that moved to a new country in (especially late) childhood will face many challenges, some of which may prove too hard.

In general I think people should consider the effects for the children when making these kinds of choices. It has lifelong implications for them.

[BrandoElFollito]

On terms of pure nationality, they are already German through their mother. I guess that American too through the father.

[jjuel]

I cannot speak to Germany or California, but I can speak to being close to family. I know that has been invaluable to my wife and I. We were only 4.5 hours away when we first had our kids, but it seemed like a million miles. It was hard not having support or even just to drop the kids with family to run an errand or go to an appointment. After being back it is just amazing to have family close. Having that love, help and support will ease a lot of burdens. Even in a small village remote work should be an option. I would assume (but obviously don't know) that a small village in Germany has a lower cost of living than California so you should still be able to build wealth if you both get decent jobs. Just remember money isn't everything, and having family close will ease many of those burdens.

[gotobavaria]

Bavaria, having family around to help is a big big plus.

For money do remote consulting. You can take on a couple of contracts at a time and will be making as much as faang employees in cash (more work, but in a few years you’ll be almost ready to retire)

[exabrial]

If those are the choices, I 100% move to Germany. California is a smoldering shell of corruption and handouts to buy votes from various demographics. Germany, despite the insane tax rate, actually uses their funds somewhat efficiently. BEFORE you go, I would absolutely establish residence in a state with no income tax like Florida... consult a tax accountant!

I can't speak on employment prospects, but with todays "work anywhere" rebellion, I'm sure you can find remote work if nothing else.

The mountainous parts of Germany are just plain beautiful. I would love the opportunity to move some place like that.

[dom9301k]

If your wife's parents are located somehow in Germany near the Swiss border, consider to move to Switzerland or move to the border and be a frontier worker or a remote worker for a Siwss located company.

Top qualty of life and the highest salary in Europe.

https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2016/...

[Bud]

I've lived in CA for 22 years, just moved away, and have studied German language and culture and music for all my life and have visited several times. So I guess I can speak fairly well to this.

Overall, it pains me to say this, but I'd have to choose Germany. Climate change impacts in California are already significant (wildfire smoke, water shortages, power grid issues), and are going to get a lot worse. Yes, the income will be higher in California, but so will the cost of living, especially the part about trying to buy a decent house, which is essential for long-term financial stability. You don't want to deal with the random capricious rent increases in the Bay Area, that I can tell you. And you don't want to deal with being constantly hassled and lorded over by some landlord. That's no way to raise a family.

Germany has superior social programs, a real health care system, seems less likely to be taken over by a fascist government (at least in the near-term), vastly superior support for education and the arts, no gun nuts, and doesn't have a government crippled by Mitch McConnell. People actually care about the well-being of the entire society, there. The mass transit is, well, legendary.

I think it's a very good bet that your overall quality of life will be superior in Germany.