Ask HN: Best alternative jobs for “outdated” skills with small websites/apps?

[spearingthehead]

I am a software engineer who is self-taught, and after graduation I took local jobs for small web shops for dev work.

Here's a brief description of my timeline from beginning to present:

- 1.5 years contract-to-hire SWE (W2 never actually happened)

- 3 months full-time W2 work, followed by 6 months unemployed

- 10 years independent contract work (freelancing)

- 2.5 years of no work, and a lot of job searching

The last 5 years of independent contract work have been very sporadic. During this time I typically made under $10k every year. I don't really know how to "put myself out there" as a freelancer, and after 10 years of doing it, I just want to go back to W2 as a FT employee.

My tech job skills include, PHP, MySQL, vanilla JS and jQuery. I don't know testing, cloud, or CI/CD practices. Jobs involve building small scale websites- at first only WordPress and eCommerce sites but around year 5 become more much web app SaaS-focused.

I have spent a very long time without work because I don't really know how to fit myself into other places with such a skill set. I get interviews and then get rejected for not being good enough. But these are the skills I have the most experience in by far. I don't have any other job skills that come close. I don't have close friends and relatives who have a good pulse on the tech industry. I do have a Github portfolio- it's not very "hot" or "trendy" tech but just things I do them because I enjoy doing them.

What other good options do I have? It doesn't have to be highly relevant to work I've done in the past. Anyone have any ideas of what I can or should do?

A side note: I've been working remote since 2013 (may explain a lot about my how my career has went) and am pretty good with maintaining a schedule and discipline around WFH.

[coderintherye]

In my experience, you should be applying at small to medium-sized companies that are not tech companies. There's a ton of work in these companies and hiring is more focused on solving business problems than answering brainteasers in interviews. Just go to LinkedIn and search Jobs for "PHP", here's one right off the bat that fits your skillset: https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/3094812914/

[eatonphil]

Yes 100%. If you, OP, are already outside of a major tech metro (so not SF, NYC, Seattle, Boston) then even better. Small companies outside of major tech metros are desperate for developers who can code because these companies cannot compete on stock or salary the same way major tech metro companies do. These small companies often even train up smart-looking people who don't know code already just to fill their needs.

Judging solely from your "resume", OP, you are in a very good position.

Try looking around Craigslist too for local companies hiring developers. That's how I got my start ~10 years ago making $70k or so. If you have any code you can share, try emailing the CEO/CTO directly explaining your interest and sharing your resume and code.

And always ignore the exact qualifications listed and apply anyway. You don't know what the candidate pool looks like for a company and listings tend to inflate what they need or can get.

Happy to chat more in email (see my HN profile) since I was in a somewhat similar place as you, OP, years ago.

Anyone, not just OP welcome to message me.

[spearingthehead]

So I guess making a return to PHP web shops but just "doing your job better" and take advantage of FTE opportunities for promotions, etc. Correct?

The job in that link is a junior job. I'm pretty open to reverting to a junior W2 job, with a modest (but not too low) salary, BUT it does raise the concern of presenting myself to employers.

I already know that a lot of employers will see 10 years experience and applying to junior jobs as a big red flag. Do I just present myself with a shorter resume, with less experience? Navigating the jobs market when you're stagnating 10 YOE and "expert beginner" is a big headache.

[codegeek]

I will be brutally honest and hoping to help you with some advice. You have a few red flags that may give a pause to prospective employers and it has nothing to do with your doing boring PHP etc.

- You have not worked for 2.5 years. That is a big gap and you need to be explain it well. Unfortunately there is lot of competition these days and anyone with that large of a gap without a good and reasonable explanation will find it difficult.

- You have never seemed to hold a proper W2 job and if you now are looking for one, you have to make that case which is not easy. For example, what happened with that 3 months full time W2 and then unemployed ? Did you quit yourself ? Were you let go/laid off/fired ?

I think your biggest challenge is that you have technically "worked" for over a decade but seems like you don't have much to show for it unfortunately. This is where most employers may get a pause.

Good news it that PHP, vanilla JS/jQuery etc are very much in demand. You need to be more focussed in your approach and fix the negatives. Perhaps go back to one of our freelance clients and ask for a job if they are hiring ? You need to have someone vouch for you since you have been out there for a long time. Then go from there.

I hope this was helpful and not overly critical. Just trying to give it to you straight.

[dnsco]

Don't stress about the gap. I addressed mine by saying:

"I had bitcoin and like climbing rocks and doing stuff, now I don't have any bitcoinlololol"

and it was totally fine. People just want to see if you will flinch.

[KennyBlanken]

> You have not worked for 2.5 years. That is a big gap and you need to be explain it well.

God forbid people save up a bunch of money and decide to not work for a year or two.

God forbid people have health issues that keep them from working.

God forbid people lose their job, struggle at finding a new one - not because they're incompetent but because they're terrible at job hunting. Or because the job loss triggers mental health issues (which you can't get addressed because you don't have a job and lots of mental health professionals either don't touch anyone on insurance period, or they don't touch people on the subsidized healthcare plans.)

Employers: "WE CAN'T FIND ANYONE TO WORK FOR US!"

Employee with a 2.5 year gap: "Uh, hi?"

Employers: "Not you."

[cutler]

jQuery in demand? Since when outside legacy work?

[rawfan]

- Go to Laracasts.com. Get up to speed with "The PHP Practitioner", "Object Oriented Bootcamp" and the "Laravel from Scratch" Series.

- Look for PHP/Laravel Jobs in your area

I love the so called TALL stack (Tailwind, AlpineJS, Laravel, Livewire) which is extremely easy to use and allows you to build modern reactive apps. So if you want to work fullstack but don't want to learn a Javascript framework like React or VueJS, maybe check out Livewire, too. Tailwind is IMO the defacto way of writing CSS these days. There's tons of material on that out there, too.

[spearingthehead]

Haven't worked much with Laravel, but I know it's been around for many years now. I have MVC experience so it should not be so hard to get the basics. Laravel was something I had a very small brush with in a 2018 job. Was really burned by the client so it ended quickly.

Also, please excuse me from going on a tangent here. I have some kind of paranoia about picking a library or framework for a job, only for it to fall in demand soon after. Like how can I tell if some framework like Laravel is in the twilight years or not? My MVC of choice in 2012 was CodeIgniter. Nobody really uses that anymore. Not a good thing for my career. I just have an irrational fear of just picking the "late" thing again. Like the same fear some people get that every stock they buy in the stock market causes the price to go down.

On the JS side of things, I picked up VueJS and React for some side projects. I'm probably more up to date on VueJS though. (another dev informed me that my React project's code is 6 years out of date and nobody really codes React like that anymore)

[harrisonjackson]

I'd probably start by asking myself, what type of company do I want to work for? And what type of job do I want? Scroll job boards and see what is out there and what appeals. Then go buff up any skills you need to get a job at those companies.

A great way to do that is build a clone of some aspect of their product or business. This will prepare you for the interview and job like an insider. You'll be able to talk about the parts of the product that were hard and why. Then all of a sudden your interview is just a good conversation.

Force yourself to do it the way an actual engineering organization does it, too.

If you aren't sure _how_ engineering teams organize projects, deployments, testing, etc then do a lot of googling and even reach out directly to CTOs, PMs, Senior devs, etc at different companies and just explain your exact situation - even link to this thread.

Lots of people are willing to take the time to help especially if it is as simple as saying... "At company X we do Y and Z" and then that gives you another thing to dig into. And you've potentially made a helpful contact/mentor.

It sounds like you don't have a lot of extra time to develop yourself into the perfect candidate for your maybe dream job, so for now you could probably pay the bills using freelancing job sites and offering IT/web dev help to local small businesses.

[lubujackson]

I was in a similar position to you about a year ago, some old PHP skills and a long break from work. The biggest challenge at this stage is getting out of your own way and selling your strengths.

I assure you, there are lots of companies right now with a roster of junior developers who are looking for a sage graybeard (if you are nearing 30 that is close enough) on the cheap, so embrace that role and angle yourself for it. Focus on your product and customer expertise and not the tech stack. Find the unsexy companies, plenty still operate remotely.

For me, I got a job at an old PHP shop and after 8 mo. upgraded with a big salary boost to a React/Python role, both languages I picked up while job hunting. The biggest challenge for me? Getting comfortable with the GitHub workflow and working on a bigger team was a bigger shift than learning a language, so I would recommend sticking with PHP for now and find a job where you can get comfortable with that side of things first.

The monthly HN job thread is a pretty good mix of companies so give that a shot.

[novateg]

Nobody is talking about starting your own business, if you already know how to build websites and web apps try looking for a small businesses that need your services. Learn more about internet marketing services, SEO optimization etc. learn sales 101. I believe you will get tons of work.

[rlayton2]

Yes! Just don't cold-email businesses with your offerings - lots and lots of low value options do!

Instead, find local meetup groups of businesses and start making connections. Be the local business doing this.

[BadCookie]

Is this still true with services like Squarespace and Shopify around? There are also many startups with millions in funding building sites for industry niches (e.g., Luxury Presence for high-end real estate). And many small businesses seem totally content with just their Facebook page. This feels like a tough area to compete in to me.

[stefanos82]

Every day that passes by I read stories that are so much alike to each other...it's so scary, because this is what I am going through for years now, with my ups and my downs.

If you would like to chat tomorrow, feel free to join https://larachat.slack.com/ so we can talk.

I'm using the same nickname.

Have no worries; we will make it.

[mmmpop]

> software engineer who is self-taught > I don't know testing, cloud, or CI/CD practices

"I'm a master craftsman but I don't know how to use a jigsaw, plane a table top, and also I'm missing my dominant hand."

First, be honest with yourself and your skills, then re-craft your résumé.

Honest to god though? Build a fake e-commerce store in Gatsby that isn't shitty, then get back to interviews. But this time you're "web developer".

[racl101]

Heck, I know testing, cloud, CI/CD, devops, etc. and have been doing it for 9 years.

And I still don't feel I can adequately call my self an engineer.

I feel like I can't call myself an engineer cause while I'm a decent doer who executes well, I am not the one coming up with high level plans of architecture. I've never been put on the spot.

[quadcore]

Plenty of good advices out there. Remember that momentum is key. Someone once said to me, "its easier to get a girlfriend, a job, whatever, when you have one already". So get a job. A whichever job. For momentum sake.

[adamredwoods]

I have had people tell me this when I was struggling, but I didn't go get a job "flipping burgers" or stocking shelves. It's demoralizing. I held out for better jobs and in the end, waiting and getting paid more was worth 3x more than working an entry-tier job. IMO, I suggest not getting "any" job, but attempt to get a related (I call it lateral shift) job.

[notjustanymike]

Sign up for Frontend Masters, take the courses on React, Vue, Angular, Typescript, and CSS. See what other courses spike your interest. At the same time start participating in weekly coding challenges, as most of these are what show up in tech interviews. Build a project using a good API; I hear Spotify is a solid choice.

You're still ahead of most graduates because your resume has experience. You just need to commit a solid month of learning to bring it up to date.

[steve_adams_86]

There is a little exercise I was asked to do recently as part of a skills assessment, and it used the Spotify API. It’s not a bad way to practice: https://github.com/alexgurr/react-coding-challenges/tree/mas...

[trestletech]

In addition to the other suggestions here, Academia could be another interesting route. Look at the job boards for local colleges/universities/research centers in your area. They're typically struggling to find technical people to either:

1. maintain and update the main websites

2. administer other IT-related systems on-campus (may require brushing up on some Linux or Windows Server skills)

3. help with the coding side of their research

There's a lot of low-hanging fruit available when it comes to coding needed for a research grant. Sometimes it's just standing up a basic website for a lab, but you'd be invaluable if you were able to help someone scrape together their pile of perl/R/python scripts into something that can be be hosted on a website. And IMHO the bar for quality is usually quite low -- many labs just want to have enough to earn/fulfill a grant and then move you on to the next project.

I'll warn you that there's not a strong career path available for software developers in Academia at the moment. So you may eventually need to break out. But it strikes me as a viable way to get a few years of real software dev experience working on interesting projects which would definitely put you in a better spot to branch out elsewhere.

[tengbretson]

Are you asking specifically about applying your experience in older tech because you have already ruled-out learning new skills? If so, why? And if not, I'd suggest getting in touch with a local boot camp or technical college.

[eatonphil]

> And if not, I'd suggest getting in touch with a local boot camp or technical college.

I would not encourage anyone who's cash strapped to do either of these.

It's easy to learn new tech online if you're motivated.

Although I don't know what to say as much if you're not motivated.

[icameron]

You will need to get you foot in the door somewhere by applying at the entry level, then build your reputation by making an impact. Take on projects without being asked. Seek forgiveness not permission. Even if your role is not tech focused or IT related you can make an impression. You clearly have some knowledge and experience, you're on HN, that alone shows that you've got the aptitude. Non-tech companies still need tech people, they just don't know how to hire them most of the time. Since you have been freelancing it for 13 years there isn't much you can say about the past that will impress a tech manager, but you should find some entry level positions that pay much more than you've been averaging. I work at a firm that isn't tech focused, and there are so many opportunities for anyone to engrain themselves into the business by creating a technical role for themselves. Spinning up web-apps, automation, even spreadsheet programming can make an impact and turn an internship or helpdesk position into full time employment.

[KennyBlanken]

I'm going to take a wild guess that you're a boomer?

The whole "start entry level, work your way up by impressing" thing doesn't work anymore. These days many companies for most of their entry level workforce just chew people up and spit them out, while fighting for top-skill young talent or older experts.

[chiefalchemist]

Lots of good technical advice. And it sounds like you're getting at least some interviews so I'd like to suggest:

- Have a professional review your CV / resume. It's a numbers game. You need more interviews, or perhaps more appropriate ones. A goid resume / CV won't get you hired. It just needs to get you an interview.

- Work on your interview skills. If you're getting interviews then at least some believe you're qualified. The disconnect seems to be at the fit / culture level. When possible, record your interviews and then go back and listen to see where you can improve.

- Looking into volunteering to do WordPress for a non-profit or two. That's worth listing on your resume. Perhaps revist your GH repos, make sure they reflect you and your coding skills.

[nickd2001]

As a non-American who worked in USA for a while, I noticed, because its easy to fire people in USA, employers will take risks like hire someone with 100% liberal arts background for highly tech job. If it doesn't work out they can fire them. It seems to me, because of this, Americans have a lot more 2cnd chances than Europeans. Seems weird you're meeting such risk aversion in such a hot job market, with the skills you've got, which sound in demand. If people are having a weird reaction maybe its best to be 100% honest with them and say, due to various factors such as looking after your mother etc, your career has never quite got off the ground, but you're motivated and hard-working, and ask them to try you out. Tell 'em "give me a coupe months you'll see results, fire me if you don't". I'd think someone will bite, for that.... You just need 1 job where you achieve lift-off, and the future is golden. (This comment assumes you're actually in USA not a risk-averse country, but even then... persuade someone to try you on temporary basis first, probation period etc, and try to be a rock star quickly...)

[ramphastidae]

Make sure you have a clear story for why you haven’t worked in 2.5 years. It can be a complete lie. Don’t worry about that - it’s really none of their business, but you need to tell them what they want to hear to move forward. For example:

- You were taking care of a sick family member

- You became a stay-at-home parent to support your spouse

- You were full-time contracting

Keep it simple. 99% of the time it’s not an issue if the excuse is reasonable and your delivery is confident. The more personal the issue, the less likely they will probe.

[yibg]

If you know you have skills gaps why haven’t you tried to fill them in the 2.5 years you’ve been unemployed? If you tried to build a SaaS business in that time, even with 0 revenue you’d have both some new experience as well as something you can put in front of employers when you do interviews.

Can’t change the past of course but seems like you should take this time to also build something and learn in addition to job searching.

[brundolf]

You talk about yourself like there's this hard barrier, like you've been barred from the "modern" web industry. But I'm going to guess you have a ton of experience with the web platform, and that's still relevant. If a new-grad can get up to speed on the currently-popular languages and frameworks, you should have no trouble doing so with all your added context.

If it's a matter of not knowing where to start, I'd say start by looking at what the job listings are asking for. And then beyond that, HN is a good source for keeping a general "pulse" on the industry; that's the main reason I'm on here.

Nothing's standing in your way, you just need to seek out and learn about the current landscape. You're in a perfectly fine position to do so.

[fredgrott]

Another way to look at it, my bias I know their story but have never met them or emailed them...

Creative Tim which now is at $1.7 million got it's start by I think 3 self taught front end coders as they wanted a killer resume to go after smaller clients.

So they started building UI kits some free ones that point to paid ones business model.

Not saying that you would get to $1.7 million.

However, given you already have half the work done in that you already know jquery and JS. Why not build two smallish UI kits to teach yourself design and put both the free kit and the paid kit out there.

Yes, it is more work than probably what others are suggesting.

But, quite frankly if you can empathy for other humans; YOU can IN FACT DESIGN awesome websites. You just have never push towards as of yet.

Times are a changing, it's no longer enough to code as one has to do the human other side of the equation.

[clorohk]

I’m kind of in a similar boat in terms of tech stack. A few things you could do:

Try to get into https://www.codeable.io/. Haven’t tried personally yet, but might in the future.

Have a look at low-code/nocode tools and become an expert in one of them (Shopify, Wix, Webflow, Zapier, etc.)

Concentrate on landing pages and reach out to marketing agencies to ask if you can contract with them. Might be the easiest way to get a fulltime job as well.

Ignore the requirements and simply apply for some of the job ads. Especially for older big companies, many of them are likely to run on your stack and simply put things like cloud in because the hiring manager has heard that’s what they need to do.

Just some ideas, hope this helps.