Ask HN: What exactly is a mindfulness meditation?

[aristofun]

I spent many years learning about different ways and schools of meditation. Not professionally but as one of hobbies constantly running in the background.

And I still don’t get it.

Honestly It still looks like a big scam to me.

Some “teachers” say that you just focus your attention on breath or whatever you choose as a focus point.

But then isn’t our whole life a sequence of meditations? Because we always focus on something (with sleep breaks).

And then following Occam’s razor - why need separate concept for that?

Other gurus teach that meditation is “doing nothing”. Okay, but then again there’s nothing special about it, we all do it from time to time.

More than that, it means you can’t really practice such meditation, by its definition.

Another way to look at it - just sit peacefully and observe your thoughts.

Then again, aren’t we doing it anyway on a regular basis without introducing a word for it?

Can you please share your own personal specific definition — what exactly is a meditation for you?

Please be as detailed as possible and avoid abstract discussions and arguments (I’ve had enough of it already :), just your own experience.

Thank you.

[mudrockbestgirl]

Meditation is being fully aware of what's happening now.

Washing dishes can be a meditation. Talking a walk. Focusing on the breath. Repeating a mantra. Lifting weights. It doesn't matter what the technique is, the important part is that you are aware of what happening now and being present in that moment, from moment to moment.

For many people, focusing on the breath is an easy way to notice when the mind wanders, so they can bring it back to the now. It's an effective technique that helps your practice meditation through trial and error (bring the mind back when it wanders and repeat), but it's not a definition of meditation. It's a practice, just like you practice for a sport, with the goal of applying it to real life.

A good example of a meditation is what professional athletes do. Almost every athlete has some kind of "routine" that allows them to clear the mind before performing their act, be it lifting a heavy weight or hitting a ball. That's a type of meditation.

Another example of the result of practicing meditation is that it helps you to create a gap between trigger and response allowing you to make a decision. For example, when someone says something that hurts you, you may be tempted to respond back with something angry and hurtful. Often this happens by default or impulse due to strong emotions. It's not a conscious rational decision made by you. Practicing meditation can allow you to be fully present in that moment. Because you've practiced, you realize what you are feeling and thinking, what your choices are, and catch yourself before you respond back with something angry. You're in a mental state where you can make a rational decision about how to respond because you are aware of your own feelings and thoughts.

[polishdude20]

In that regard, I find when I work on soldering PCB circuit boards for projects, it's a kind of meditation. Placing teeny tiny components exactly where they need to be and then hot air soldering them in place takes a lot of "being in the moment". It's really calming for me :)

[jatins]

> Meditation is being fully aware of what's happening now.

Is scrolling TikTok meditation then?

[firtoz]

When we focus we do not really focus.

For example, while we eat, we get all kinds of thoughts, and we can easily get lost in them. Planning about the future, thinking about the past. We can get lost in our mind and our thoughts carry us around.

This is our default mode.

With meditation, we can learn to focus on what we are doing much more precisely than "typical" focus that we think is focusing, but the typical one we consider mainly "what we think our body is actively doing". We do not typically consider what's going on in the mind.

With meditation, we can learn to let go of the thoughts in our mind, so that we do not get dragged around this way or that way easily.

Training the mind is a skill that one learns over months and years.

When I meditate, I deliberately let the thoughts pass, and every session of meditation trains me to automatically be able to do it during my daily activities.

So when I am eating, I am only eating, with my body, but also my mind. When I am relaxing, I am truly relaxing. When I am thinking about something, I am truly thinking about only that thing.

[aristofun]

> When we focus we do not really focus.

How do you know that?

How do you measure and decide if you focus enough?

[rhn_mk1]

> we can learn to focus on what we are doing much more precisely than "typical" focus that we think is focusing

Is that different from the kind of focus during strenuous exercise?

[ergonaught]

The meaning of the words has become frustratingly loose in the West, but there's no point breaking my face on that wall.

You have to separate the pragmatic aspects of mindfulness meditation, which are more commonly stressed in the West, and the "less pragmatic" aspects (call that "spiritual" or "transformational" if you like) which are part of the actual practices/systems from which it originates. I'm focusing on the first as that seems to be your interest.

The core pragmatic purpose of mindfulness meditation is to notice when your mind has become distracted. Returning your attention to your breath (or whatever) after your thoughts have drifted is the practice. That's it, but if you think "that's all?" then you haven't practiced this and have no idea juuuuuuuuuuust how distracted you are.

As with "doing nothing", if you think that's easy or something "we do all the time", then you haven't really experienced or understood it. You're dealing with an intellectual preconception rather than the lived experience of recognizing your turbulence.

It can go beyond that, into disidentification from thoughts and sensations, experiencing "awareness", and so forth, but that isn't the pragmatic aspect, which comes first.

[meotimdihia]

How is it a scam when monks teach it free in my country? from my understanding, you are learning almost the wrong ways or you don't really understand even basically. That is why you can't achieve things: (English is not my native language)

  > But then isn’t our whole life a sequence of meditations? Because we always focus on something (with sleep breaks).

=> Mediation means we rid of thoughts, cause we always thought something in the past or in the future and it makes your brain can't relax.

  > Other gurus teach that meditation is “doing nothing”. Okay, but then again there’s nothing special about it, we all do it from time to time.

=> Even if you do nothing, but you always think something => same the result as above.

  > Another way to look at it - just sit peacefully and observe your thoughts.

=> It is wrong, we observe, not think something.

from my understanding, don't observe in your head, you observe the lowest point on your body when you are sitting. And you have to know your breath when it is in and out.

If you think nothing, you can sense your body.

Ex: when you work or play games or watch movies, and a moquisto bite you, you almost don't know. But while you observe, you can sense tiny things about your body, even if a mosquito touches your skin.

And It is hard to mediation when you don't know basically about Buddhism - This is my guess from what did you write.

[maleldil]

> And It is hard to mediation when you don't know basically about Buddhism - This is my guess from what did you write.

Why? There's nothing inherently Buddhist about meditation; there's no reason to bring religion into this. Buddhism is a tradition that has been practicing meditation for a long time, but their practice is shrouded in their mysticism, so it's difficult to know what's real and what isn't.

This is coming from someone who once thought like you, by the way. Although I am an atheist, I read a lot about Buddhism and meditation, even medidated with a monk. The religious aspects are a complete waste of time, so you're better off learning from a secular source.

[DaveFr]

In my experience, mindfulness meditation is a form of exercise for your brain. You are increasing your brain's capacity to control, move, and manipulate your thoughts and mental processes, analogous to how weight training might allow you to increase your capacity to control, move, or manipulate heavy external objects.

Sure, it's true that we always "focus" on something, but, like there is a difference in degree between a trained weightlifter and a non-weightlifter, there is a difference in the ability to focus that comes from intentional practice.

Of course there are people who are able to practice mindfulness in their lives without meditation, just like there are people who have strength without going to the gym - they just got a similar result from a different path. It certainly doesn't mean you can't practice mindfulness, any more than the existence of a strong (e.g.) construction worker means you can't practice weightlifting.

[labrador]

A Japanese Tea Ceremony is a technique for practicing mindfulness meditation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_tea_ceremony

The items you raised as commonplace things we all do anyway is understood, but it seems you assume that most people are present for their own life, when actually people are often a million miles away thinking about something else.

Did the dinner you had last night taste good or did you not stop to enjoy the taste? Do you remember what you had for dinner last night? When you went on your last vacation were you really there enjoying it or were you enjoying the concept of it and how you could record it and share it with others on social media? There is even a psychological condition called disassociation that many people suffer from but don't know what it's called. Disassociated people see their life as a passive observer, like watching themselves act in a play.

Mindfulness is an Eastern solution attempt to counter these tendencies. In fact, mindfulness may be the only solution for disassociation because there isn't a pill you can take for that. Disassociation comes about because of trauma and a person's need to disengage from the pain. The "thousand yard stare" of war vets is an example. Mindfulness training is used as therapy by the VA but they don't call it that.

https://www.apa.org/ptsd-guideline/treatments/prolonged-expo...

I'm not saying there aren't "mindfulness" scam teachers, but that's true of just about any topic, at least in America

[thekingofrome]

Imagine you are sitting in a movie theater, watching a movie. You are so engrossed by this movie that you are totally focused on it, and forget you are sitting in a movie theater. What meditation and mindfulness do is to remind yourself that the movie is not the totality of your reality, but that there is more to it. To translate this analogy to real life: your thoughts and sense of self are the movie. Some people will die never knowing that they are watching a movie, but others will realize that's what they're doing - and if they don't like the movie they're watching, this better understanding can provide them peace.

[itake]

> Other gurus teach that meditation is “doing nothing”. Okay, but then again there’s nothing special about it, we all do it from time to time.

That is great you can do that naturally. Personally, I struggle with doing nothing. Even when I am resting or waiting for something, I am on my phone or thinking about problems in my life.

Meditation helps me release those stresses and gives me permission to "do nothing".

[yusefnapora]

> aren’t we doing it anyway on a regular basis without introducing a word for it?

I think this is the heart of the matter. Meditation is not something you need to "do" in addition to the living of your life. It's just an awareness of what your mind is actually like in the present moment, as your life unfolds.

The "practice" of meditation is just a way of conditioning your environment in a way that makes the processes of your mind more obvious.

Many people spend most of their waking moments identified with and fascinated by an ongoing internal narrative that aggressively converts sense experience into language. The stream of lived experience is instinctively and unconsciously divided into separate things and events, and usually those things are immediately classified as either pleasant (to be grasped at) or unpleasant (to be rejected).

There's nothing inherently wrong with this process, but because it tends to happen "under the surface" of conscious attention, we can easily forget that we're doing it.

The brief cessation of this process is what I believe people mean by "doing nothing" - you're not actively "doing" nothing, which as you note is logically impossible. But you are ceasing to do something that has been happening so constantly for so long that it has become part of "the background" and faded away from conscious awareness. The thing that you are ceasing to do is the constant identification of "yourself" as the stream of thoughts and classifications that occupy your mind.

If you are able to experience that without the practice of meditation, or if you have no interest in experiencing that state of mind, then of course there's no need to meditate. Or you could easily say that whatever you happen to be doing while this state of awareness is happening _is_ the practice of meditation - there's nothing special about sitting with crossed legs or chanting or whatever.

[migro23]

Meditation is a broad term encompassing many different practices and traditions (as you know). From my own experience, meditation is a means to understand (and more importantly *experience*) that what I consider a 'self' doesn't exist (from a first person perspective). It's an illusion created by my own mind via perpetual thought imagery, constant inner dialogue/self talk that is propagating and clinging to a fabricated image of who I am.

What keeps this going is the phenominon of thinking without realising you are thinking. You are simply being captured by thoughts that on the face of it (from the first person perspective) are coming out of nowhere. The analogy used is a dream. When you go to sleep you dream and usually you are not puzzled by the fact that a moment ago you were in your bed and the next you are in this dream situation. You completely lose the perspective that you are in a dream. Thoughts have this same quality. At the core of this issue is the sense of self.

Meditation is a means of becoming aware of this process (hence the practice of becoming aware of your thoughts). To do this successfully you need to develop a certain level of concentration (which is why there are practices that involve focus on the breath/some other meditation object singularly).

Sometimes people get caught up on the whole idea of meditation and try too hard (hence the gurus saying 'do nothing'). They revert back to the idea of a self and they try to improve themselves in some way. Really in meditation we are trying to become aware of something, a continual process playing out in your minds, a perpetual stream of thoughts that we are completely unaware of that is distorting our perceptions, creating an identity (in the first person sense) from which then arises all the emotional and psychological problems we tend to encounter in our daily lives that are as relevant today as when the Buddha was knocking around.

[Reclix]

The modern adaptations of meditation largely position meditation as a way to experience peace/calm/rest and to develop self-awareness of your thoughts that allows you space to change your inner environment. These are both true and great.

But the actual, original purpose of any inward looking practice -- meditation, inquiry, contemplation -- is to discover the nature of your consciousness, to answer the question, "who or what am I?" by starting with the only part of our experience that is not changeful -- our awareness that we exist.

When you begin to try to honestly answer this question -- "when I say 'I', what am I referring to? this body? this mind? how can I know what I am, beyond a theory or thought? etc" -- it leads to a radical and yet in retrospect totally natural process of self-investigation -- turning your self-awareness upon itself -- whose end product is called self-realization, spiritual awakening or enlightenment.

[rlp]

It's about training your mind's executive control/function. You learn to focus on one thing and allow others to pass through your awareness without them being overly distracting/disturbing.

Think of your focus like a spotlight. Most people have very little control over their spotlight and it gets aimed at whatever is the latest thing to enter their awareness: a thought, a sound, another thought, a visual, etc. It's bouncing all around, all the time. A proficient meditator can more effectively control where the spotlight points. Over time, as the mind slowly learns to do this better, the stuff outside the spotlight fades and become less intrusive. This leads to increasing states of calm and peacefulness which extend even after the meditation session ends.

[IG_Semmelweiss]

interesting take . the spotlight meshes well with achieving "bliss", which many describe as an blinding light - in effect the spotlight being pointed to your face!

[aristofun]

So you described concentration training. No need for meditation myth for that to, no?

[barrysteve]

>Other gurus teach that meditation is “doing nothing”. Okay, but then again there’s nothing special about it, we all do it from time to time.

Eastern spirituality sees "nothing" or nothingness as a spiritual place to relax in and be.

Western religions see "nothing" as something that can't exist. That nothing is impossible for Christ.

One function of prayer and meditation is to organize your thoughts and let go of thoughts and aims that are not helpful, sometimes called Sin. You can let them go into nothingness (eastern), into the altar of fire (catholicism) or let them flow away (anglican/methodist). You can also use prayer to aim and think about things that are good for you and you do want.

If you want real detail, John Vervaeke's Awakening from the Meaning Crisis series [0] does the history of spirituality as a psycho-technology, cog-sci breakdown.

It is very good and leads into discussions with him and Curt Jaimungal [1] on the Theories of Everything channel, which has a slightly more Eastern and hyper-intellectual physics blend to it.

[0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54l8_ewcOlY&list=PLND1JCRq8V...

[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p8o3-7mvQc

The practice of prayer and meditation has been degraded by practicing psychologists and pop culture. Stay away from that stuff, it eats into the prayer life and meditation from the inside or bottom-up.

[amriksohata]

Indian perspective here. All this mindfulness meditation is a "spun" version of meditation, the original version that comes from Hinduism in Hindu scriptures and further adopted by other Eastern religions. The reality of Yoga and Meditation was to be able to switch off our senses (we are outward looking/hearing/feeling people) and be able to focus on who we actually are and focus our minds on a higher purpose. However sadly its just been taken by business over here in the west and made into some product to deal with anxiety because your boss/modern life/tech etc puts so much stress on you.

[cratermoon]

The word "mindfulness" is a rough English translation of the Pali word sati. The Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta is the most influential text on what in the west is known as mindfulness mediation, so perhaps you'd like to start there. I can recommend the commentary Satipaṭṭhāna: The Direct Path to Realization by Bhikkhu Anālayo. Because Anālayo has waived royalty payments from this book as an act of Dhammadāna, you should be able to find a copy easily.

To give you my own answer to your question: First, you say, "we always focus on something". In truth we rarely achieve concentrated focus that tunes out everything else. We rarely "just sit peacefully and observe .. thoughts", though we might think we do, we are constantly evaluating and making judgements about our thoughts. So meditation practice can help refine the skills of focusing and observing. Second, everything you say about not needing a separate concept or word is true in an intellectual sense, but to actually know and experience mindfulness is different from merely having a rational understanding of the ideas.

[jinpa_zangpo]

Mindfulness is focusing your attention on the present moment. Usually some object is used, most often the breath. It differs from non-meditation because normally we spend most of our time thinking about the future or the past, often with worry or regret. While we are focused on the future or the past we are living in our imaginations and not in reality.

The purpose of mindfulness meditation is to develop the habit of being present to what we are experiencing now. Like all habits, it is strengthened through practice. Of course, sometimes we must think about the future or the past, but this should be a conscious choice rather than an unconscious habit.

With time, our ability to be mindful gets stronger so that we can practice meditation without an object. In this sort of meditation we remain aware on whatever arises in our minds without trying to alter in by holding on or pushing away. The advantage is meditation without an object is less artificial and allows us to understand the mind as it naturally is instead of some contrived state. This meditation is sometimes called "doing nothing." This is both true and false, because normally we are always doing something with our minds. Simply observing is unusual. You might object that we are always aware of our minds. Yes, but there are degrees of awareness. Just as we always have some attention on the present, we are also always somewhat aware of our minds, but the degree of awareness can be less or more.

[lunchables]

I always loved the 5-4-3-2-1 method. It's a good, clear system that helps people who are new to mindfullness exercises. You're absolutely right, doing this often makes it easier and easier.

https://www.mondaycampaigns.org/destress-monday/unwind-monda...

The one thing I'd add is, when you think of each thing, also think of characteristics of it. Otherwise it can be ok five things I see: mouse, keyboard, monitor, phone, can. But instead if can become: black mouse with a light blue light, keyboard with silver logo and bright red escape key, etc etc. It really helps you focus on your surroundings more directly.

[ksec]

>Honestly It still looks like a big scam to me.

LOL. From your wording and questioning, my guess is that you have been reading too much Meditation from a Western cultural perspective. And I would not be surprised if most of them are indeed, Scams.

My suggestion would be to travel to Japan and find the answer for yourself.

[srvmshr]

(I am a permanent resident in Japan)

Honestly, its a scam in Japan as well. It is really really hard to find something that really works given most people have swung towards being apolotical & agnostic. Shintoism is carried forward as a legacy not because people actively believe in it. Zanzen or "zen" Buddhist retreats charge a ton of money and make you go through a mindless routine. And its a make-believe that you learnt meditation.

Being a functioning Buddhist, the only thing I can say it takes months to years of everyday mental training to bring that discipline. I tried with some degree of success but it needs more time for legendary results that people talk of.

[can16358p]

From what I've understood and practiced it's just being present in the moment, litarally not (explicitly) creating any thoughts, just observing and being aware of any input present outside.

Think of yourself like a wireless radio and think of the meditation like putting yourself into monitor mode.

It's definitely not a scam and it has been practiced a lot in the Eastern culture for long periods of time with observable true benefits.

However, like everything that gets popular in the west, there are many charlatans out there who are scammers.

[joshxyz]

> However, like everything that gets popular in the west, there are many charlatans out there who are scammers.

Are you frustrated in your life? Are you sad and lonely? Is your life a living hell and you feel lost without direction? Sign up in this meditation course to solve all of your problems for only $9.95! 30-day money back guarantee!

[microjim]

The mind causes itself unnecessary suffering.

There is a way out of this suffering.

The way out is by investigating and comprehending your experience.

That’s the gist of it.

Edit: you asked for personal experience:

Sitting on a cushion: calming and gladdening the mind by working skilfully with intentions, attention, and awareness to create the conditions for insight to arise

In daily life, off the cushion: cultivating awareness to notice what happens inside it more (to notice patterns about mental activities that lead to suffering and those that lead to happiness :))

[w10-1]

See: Buddhism

[mattront]

Personally, I find meditation as presented by Mingyur Rinpoche (from Tibetan Buddhist tradition) very useful and practically applicable to every day life. It goes beyond just mindfulness. Here is a quote from [0]:

"...practicing meditation is a process of exploring the heart and mind, of fully experiencing the richness of awareness itself. This implies that meditation is not meant to eliminate the things we don’t like about ourselves, or even to become “better” people. Meditation helps us to see that we are already whole and complete. It is a practical tool that enables us to get in touch with our true nature.

The path of meditation unfolds in two stages: We begin by recognizing that the nature of awareness is fundamentally good and pure, and that it is the source of true and lasting happiness. Once we have directly experienced the basic goodness of awareness, the path of meditation then consists of nurturing this recognition and allowing the qualities of awareness to manifest fully."

[0] https://tergar.org/meditation/what-is-meditation/

[aristofun]

How do you reword it in down to earth actionable way?

So I go and know what to do, and some criteria to know if I’m doing it right.