Ask HN: Leaving Germany – where to find quality of life as experienced engineer?

[bartminton]

My wife (hotel management), our 6 month old son and myself (CS, software, hardware + business consulting) need to leave Berlin and Germany. Everything in Germany and especially Berlin eroded to a point, where we don’t want to stand it no more - meaningless to get into the details but quality of life, politics, social life, social net and tax situation just reached their 30 year low.

Our main goal is quality of life for all of us, so it should be a country w/o cold winters, possibly an island close to the equator. I’d appreciate, if I found a tech position, that allows us to buy / rent a quality house (which is close to impossible in Berlin even making 200k/year [due to neck breaking tax and cost of living]).

Getting along with English is a must. The same goes for the possibility of getting work visa. I also consider working remote for a EU / US company and just move to a nice place, but I’d love to hear your personal story, recommendations or ideas.

[Matthias247]

Having moved from germany to canada (Vancouver BC) in 2017, I can tell you that "quality of life" is highly subjective, and a lot of things in germany work far better than it seems - but you will only notice it if you have anything to compare against.

E.g. [online] shopping and stock availability is so much better in germany, and you only notice what a privilege it is to get everything you need in 1 day once it's taken away from you. Groceries are super cheap in germany compared to canada. Cellphone and ISP service and pricing is often looked down upon in germany, but still also better than lots of other places. [Free] eduction is also good.

Housing in Berlin in 200k should be as comfortable as in Vancouver on 400k and new building construction quality is good. But sure - there will be tons of other places on this planet where housing is cheaper.

Then there's considerations about healthcare (where germany is probably neither at the top end nor the bottom end of the spectrum).

And of course also about long term job perspectives. While you might be able to find a remote job now, it could be much harder to maintain it or look for future opportunities in some locations than in others. Being in a country with a big tech industry or at least in the same timezone will help retaining opportunities.

[bartminton]

You touch a number of very important points here. Thanks for that. We're aware of the fact, that the overall situation in many countries in the world is much, much worse. So it's kind of a luxury problem. What is actually a challenge, is that I work as a freelancer for 20 years now and still have to go a long way to secure my private pension. I once calculated my personal "real" tax rate in Germany, and ended up at around 71%. Especially due to the fact, that we both are in the highest income tax band but also due to the fact that there are taxes on close to everything. But since we're not really consume oriented, we're fine with lower income, IF we find a place, where life is just more relaxed. Thank you for your thoughts.

[foobarian]

> to canada (Vancouver BC)

I mean Vancouver is not exactly a paragon of affordable housing either.

[jacquesm]

As a multiple-times-emigrant I can tell you this one thing: no matter where you go, it will be plusses and minuses compared to where you are originally from. Some things will be better, others will be worse. Sometimes much better and sometimes much worse. And there is no way to know this up front you just need to go there and live there for a while before your own personal scorebook can be updated, other people will have an entirely different view on these things depending on their own background, stage of life they are in, personality and so on.

Whatever you will end up finding: it will make you a more balanced person and better able to appreciate the good and the bad of where ever you are in a much more objective way than before.

[bartminton]

> you just need to go there and live there for a while before your own personal scorebook can be updated

That seems to be a fact. Nevertheless really interesting to hear other peoples thoughts. Thanks for yours.

[alldayeveryday]

This is a question I've often asked myself - albeit from in the US rather than from Germany. While I cannot answer your specific question, I can at least tell you where I landed after asking myself the same question.

> quality of life, politics, social life, social net and tax situation just reached their 30 year low.

I first recognized that this trend was not restricted only to where I live. And so you recognize that this is not about fleeing your location specifically, and is moreso about fleeing a set of conditions that exist in many places and looking for a location that is not characterized by these conditions. The difference I think is important.

Second, I recognized that these conditions are temporal - that is to say that they were not always the case and need not necessarily always be the case in the future. Furthermore, a location without these conditions today is not guaranteed to be free of these conditions in the future. And so any change of location could very well be just temporary - I might need to move again in some X num of years.

Third, when you look at for example Californians fleeing the state and moving to places like Austin, TX - bringing along with them ideologies that are anathema to that of the legacy population, you recognize that it is not just geography that defines the conditions of where one lives, but to a greater degree the people who are living there.

Putting this all together, I arrived at the conclusion that fleeing could at best be a temporary solution and that I would be better served by building relationships in my local community which would produce a higher quality of life for my family. The way you push back on the trend is to re-establish your roots with your people, your nation, and its history. Fleeing will only result in greater isolation and disconnectedness from those around you.

[dgellow]

> that allows us to buy / rent a quality house (which is close to impossible in Berlin even making 200k/year [due to neck breaking tax and cost of living])

Just, how? If you have 200k/year, taxes and Berlin's low cost of living should have almost no impact on you. That's like more than than 4 times the median German salary, in one of the cheapest city of the country (rent is of course expensive, but that's mostly depending on the neighborhood). I spent 3 years in Berlin and now live in Hamburg, I cannot imagine that you have problem finding a decent place and living a very comfortable life there given your income.

Anyway, if you do not like Berlin, there is a lot of other places in Germany with different politics, taxes, and social life.

[0x008]

Berlin is not anymore one of the cheapest places to live in Germany, since the rent went up 100% in the past 8 years, it is now the fourth most expensive large city in Germany.

[atmosx]

Take a look at Chania, Crete Greece. You can setup a corporation in Greece and work as a contractor for local and foreign companies. That will get you 22% tax. Assuming you make more than 80k / year (after taxes) you'll be on the high-end. Housing is expensive for Greek standards but I'm pretty sure that you will be able to afford it. It is an island but pretty big. Has hospitals, universities, etc. Chania is a small town but 6 months a year is flooded with tourists so appears to be much larger and always vibrant. The sea and scenery in Crete is outstanding. Especially the canyons.

Cons: Infrastructure in Greece is poor. Internet services are considerably more expensive and public transport is not good compared to central Europe. Streets are poorly maintained as well.

Pros: The food is amazing, best you've had. Any kind of crops will grow there and will be tasty. You'll be living next to the sea, you'll be the most "popular" member of your extended family... Everybody will want to "pay a visit" as often as possible. People are pretty friendly, crazy at the same time but really open. The gov is actively trying to destroy the healthcare system but it is still average.

[ultim8k]

I agree with you about food and quality of life.

Not so sure about the tax rates. Are you sure that 22% is all you pay? I'd be very surprised if this is with the Greek tax system.

Disclaimer: I'm from Chania and live in London the last 5 years and considering the possibility of working remotely.

[numlock86]

Sounds like you should/want just move out of Berlin, not necessarily Germany. Sure, the tax situation and climate is basically the same everywhere, but if you want quality of live I'd recommend somewhere near or between Oldenburg and Emden in Lower Saxony. Once you settled in basically everything east of Bremen and south of Osnabrück will feel like a different country. I basically had the same situation for decades and have been everywhere from north to south and west to east, from small towns to big cities. There's exceptions everywhere of course.

[bartminton]

We still consider a place outside Berlin / Brandenburg. Still that does not change the fact, that the current state of affairs here is hard to digest. We also and especially look for a "warmer" and "brighter" region. German winters tend to be hard, not because of the temperatures, but because of the hours of sunlight. However, thank you for the suggestion, we'll definitely check them.

[isubasinghe]

Come down to Australia. The tech scene is just CRUD apps but quality of life is pretty amazing. Comparable to Switzerland for median income people imo, Switzerland is still better if you are poor but don't think that applies here, since you alone on a Software Eng would put your family to above average income.

Relatively low tax (caps off at 30% for most people if/when the new tax legislation goes through, perhaps not for a Software Engineer though).

Winter in Melbourne hits 0 at the coldest, mostly above 4 degrees though. Summer can get quite hot, high 30s and the occasional 40.

But yeah, I am in Switzerland atm and I find the quality of life similar, really made me appreciate home (Australia) more as well because I thought this was the norm before coming to Europe.

Don't get me wrong we still have selfish self serving politicians but quality of life for most Australian's is high.

Cost of living will probably be higher than Berlin though, Melbourne/Sydney is comparable to Zürich in expense as well, but taxes will likely be lower.

[RomanPushkin]

There is no freedom in Australia, the government is doing whatever they want to people. Look at how they handled COVID: rolled out restrictions, punishing their own citizen to a degree any "normal" country/government wouldn't do, etc.

[haspok]

Yeah, good luck getting a work visa in Australia... Even if you get it, it costs a fortune and takes ages. It's just not worth even trying, unless you have a _very_ specific reason to do so.

[Mandatum]

Wages are stagnating. I expect they won't keep up with inflation. But alas, it's not a bad place to bunker down during a recession.

[simonebrunozzi]

Sorry to hear that you need to leave your country. It's never easy. I left Italy in 2008, in search for opportunities (AWS), then left the US in 2020, back to Italy.

What made you leave Berlin, if you don't mind sharing a bit more?

Finding the right place is always a compromise. E.g. :

1) quality of schools for your son (eventually; he's still super young)

2) VISA, how easy it is to get a permanent resident, and/or citizenship

3) Island close to the equator: the weather is usually not that great (source: lived in Singapore, an island close to the equator, for 2.5 years). But picking the right "type" of place is important, and I suggest you take a 1-month long vacation in 2-3 places, if you can afford it, to "test" it and see if you like it.

Still on this point, I think that most "north Europeans" enjoy the mediterranean area (Portugal, Spain, Italy, or even Greece). Have you tried it out?

[clintonwoo]

Just providing a cautious view: living on an island sounds like a fantasy but in practice it's very isolating, many supply chain issues and it can be hard/expensive to get a hold of items produced off the island

[deanmoriarty]

What were your reasons for leaving the US, if it's something you'd be willing to share?

[akmarinov]

Come to Bulgaria - in the south there are mild winters, in the summer - there's a great beachside.

You get some of the fastest internet in Europe for cheap, taxes stand at 10% flat rate, 20% VAT.

Houses in the vicinity of major cities are dirt cheap, compared to your standards (you can probably start off renting for something like 400-500 euro/month).

There're a lot of IT companies, but of course you can't expect the same salaries that you're accustomed to, though if you can land a Germany job that'll let you remote from here - it's a great deal.

Germany is a 1 hour flight away, usually for fairly cheap.

[bartminton]

Interesting suggestion. I've been to Sofia once in 2006. The city did not make a very good impression back then, but I am sure, the situation changed a lot. Hopefully to the better. I will definitely look into it, since we do not exclude eastern Europe from our list. Thanks for the suggestion.

[thyselius]

I'd look into Bali.

The new five year digital nomad visa means you pay no income tax.

A beautiful villa is $300-600 per month.

You could be working from a beach club with pool, gym, healthy restaurant and tennis court, like Titi Batu https://goo.gl/maps/KGfy6hqscZ2XKrzQ8

Price is very low, a 30 min taxi ride is $1.50, a main dish at a fancy restaurant is $5-7.

The food is the best I've ever had, weather is wonderful, there's surfing and the people are super friendly, funny and happy.

(I'm not sure about health care and education.)

My second choice would probably be Lisbon.

[codewithcheese]

This is over hyping Bali.

Yes you can get a place for $300-$600 a month but it won't be so easy to find anything more than a single room at that price, you may get a kitchen but it takes a bit more looking depending on the area. The kitchen will be outdoors, not like a western kitchen.

If you want a real "villa" with a living room then you should at least double that price, and it will be an outdoor living room, with bugs and heat. A villa with an indoor living room is quite rare.

Taxi's are cheap, 30 min taxi ride is more like $3, using an app, but if you use a local taxi then $10, and it will take 30 min just to go a few kms because the traffic is so bad.

The roads in Bali were not planned and many were just paths between rice fields that have been turned into a narrow two lane road. In many cases a car will have to pull over just to let through passing car past.

The air quality is poor by western standards https://www.iqair.com/au/indonesia/bali

The beaches and not good, especially around Canggu, with black stand and trash and dog shit. The beaches down south are much better but that part of Bali is very over developed.

[joeman1000]

Australia. My best advice is to go somewhere where your life is worth lots of money. I lived in Ukraine for 2 years and toured around EU for part of that time. My life in Ukraine was worth the price of bribing a cop. Someone is caught after running me over? In the cynical case they’re free for $100. In Australia if someone hits me and is caught, they’re fucked. This is especially important for your wife and son. Put them before yourself in your decision, as I’m sure you already do.

[programmer_dude]

> In Australia if someone hits me and is caught, they’re fucked.

Only if you are white. Your life is worthless if you aren't.

[Mikeb85]

> Our main goal is quality of life for all of us, so it should be a country w/o cold winters, possibly an island close to the equator.

Australia, Barbados, Bahamas, Cyprus.

Honestly though, you'll be hard pressed to find anywhere as livable as Germany.

The US and Canada are less safe with more violence. Both have worse healthcare and education. The US is attractive income-wise but visas tough to get. Canada is extremely unaffordable. Most EU countries offer similar livability but you might not be able to get by on just English or German. It's a nearly impossible criteria considering how rich, safe and affordable Germany is...

[nradov]

Violence is the US and Canada is highly concentrated in a limited number of economically disadvantaged areas. It's terrible that some people have to live in those environments, and we should absolutely take steps to improve their situations. But fear of violence is not a rational reason to avoid immigration for affluent people who can afford to live in decent areas. My city has zero murders most years.

[matus_congrady]

I would definitely suggest Prague, Czech Republic.

The city is beautiful. Climate is great. Low taxation (especially if you're self-employed). Cost of living is way better than in Germany. Quality of food, healthcare and public services is also very good.

Also, if you don't like the leftist policies, you'll love Czech Republic.

[FastEatSlow]

I second this, primarily because I was chuckling the entire time there. Czech is quite funny to Polish speakers [1].

[1] http://wiedza-jest-super.blogspot.com/2018/10/smieszne-czesk...

[ricardobeat]

I assume you are Czech. I'm curious to hear what makes you happy about the new right-wing government?

It seems to have started following the same modus operandi that made a huge mess in Brazil: sectarian politics, removing 'leftists' from every inch of government institutions and instrumenting them with friends, reverting climate policies, etc. But this is only looking from afar.

[oumua_don17]

Cambridge, UK

- A solid tech hub so you should have enough opportunities

- Good options for your wife as well to work

- You can also work in London (only 50 minutes by train to King's Cross); I do that

- High quality education for kids

While we don't have kids but from friends who do have, they find Cambridge to be great place to work, live and raise a family. And while you won't get warm winters, they should still be manageable if you look at the other positives.

[theriddlr]

OP would need a work visa to work in the UK because of Brexit. Low salaries for perm roles plus high taxes make him worse off.

[Nextgrid]

The taxation is just as bad.

[sneusse]

Well, if you don't mind (or like) living in a small village, Black Forest area. Housing is very affordable for good standard houses (just bought 170sqm house for 450k with renewable heating, decent energy efficiency). Nature here is awesome, QoL for us just perfect, having farms, forests, small lakes nearby. Kindergarden, Elementary School, Farmer-Stores in walking distance. Expect some cold winters every few years though :)

By choosing your village carefully you'll also get decent public transport to bigger cities (1h by train every hour to Stuttgart for us, 2h to Lake Constance).

For example we were considering this one: https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/133826271 But it was just too big for us. Add another 50-80k for upgrading the heating to a renewable one, some roof insulation and you're at 480k for 220sqm.

I'd expect that you'd find similar objects in like 1-2h around Berlin.

No idea how you cannot find a place in germany with 200k/y. I make about half of that and that's me providing a single income for our family and still saving up some money for the future. I'm not self-employed but with 200k income you should still have more left at the end of the month than we do, and we're doing fine (but we also don't need fancy cars or have fancy expensive hobbies)

[janekg]

> that allows us to buy / rent a quality house (which is close to impossible in Berlin even making 200k/year [due to neck breaking tax and cost of living]).

This is more likely to be due to the tight situation on the housing market with several monopolists than to excessively high taxes.

[bartminton]

You might be right. It just feels somehow "off". As I said in another sub thread: I don't really mind the height of the taxes. That would be fine, if infra, public services and the overall outlook were ok. But they are not. At least not in my opinion. And buying a house today meant a loan for roundabout the next 40 years. No option.

[Tepix]

It makes no sense. At 200k/year you should easily be able to afford a very nice house indeed. Perhaps op is spending it all on luxury, travel, ...?

[lormayna]

What about Israel? The tech scene is amazing, the weather is great and the taxes are lower than in Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Israel). Unless if you don't have Jewish roots, it can be hard to get a VISA.

For quality of life, I would like to suggest Italy, but the salary are terrible low and the taxes are high. Moreover, the probable new government, will make immigration way more complex.

[jaclaz]

>Moreover, the probable new government, will make immigration way more complex.

Immigration from Germany?

Both Italy and Germany are countries in the EU, hadn't you noticed.

[bartminton]

We don't have jewish roots. So not only visa would be quite problematic.

[pastacacioepepe]

> Moreover, the probable new government, will make immigration way more complex.

That's not a concern considering OP is European, he can move wherever he wants inside the union.

If the right wing wins the elections they will (probably) tighten rules for poverty immigration from outside Europe.

> the salary are terrible low and the taxes are high.

That's true, but if you can find a well paying remote job and a nice place to live you'll have a good life in Italy. Just don't rely on the state and you'll be fine.

[clintonwoo]

I'm not the biggest expert in this area but sounds like Portugal is popular with this demographic. It might be able to meet a lot of your requirements.

Outside of that then the world is your oyster. The world is a big beautiful place and if you work in tech you're only limited by your own imagination.

[keiferski]

I know you said you’re looking for a warmer climate, but have you been to Leipzig? It’s a great little city with a ton of history. It has some of the feel of Berlin but is infinitely cheaper and less busy. Just something to consider.

Otherwise I would look into the Balkan coast. Croatia, Montenegro, etc. You won’t be working locally but the quality of life will be great on a remote salary and the culture shock should be fairly minimal for a German.

[RomanPushkin]

Currently living in the US (citizen), originally from the Soviet Block, but I used to live in Spain (1 year), South-east Asia (4 years), and Germany (1 year) as well. Have been to other countries as well (Mexico, Dom.Republic, etc.).

From my perspective, Germany is one of the best choices. There are few things that should be in the country you live:

* Laws, police should work (well, to some degree).

* Healthcare should be decent.

* Shouldn't be too cold.

Most of the island/equator countries don't have this option. Once you face a legal issue, you will want to run a country with a law system that, for example, works the different way to locals vs immigrants (like Mexico).

I was thinking about moving from the US to Germany/Netherlands multiple times in the last few years.

[rich_sasha]

> Most of the island/equator countries don't have this option

Singapore comes to mind. I never lived there, and it's not exactly a democracy, but i guess this doesn't affect an expat.

I wonder what life is like in Hong Kong now. Awful no doubt if you are a pro democracy activist, but what about the rest? Certainly no shortage of warm weather too.