Telegram is asking German users when to share information with law enforcement

[danhor]

Just went out to german users (translated with deepl):

We, the Telegram team, ask you to give us your opinion on how the data of German Telegram users may (or may not) be shared with German authorities, including the German police (BKA).

Telegram never shares information about your chats or contacts with third parties, including government agencies.

Nevertheless, to prevent misuse of our platform by terrorist groups, our current privacy policy since 2018 allows us to disclose IP addresses and phone numbers of terrorist suspects upon government request backed by a court order.

We're conducting this poll to find out if our German users support our current privacy policy or if they want to reduce or increase the number of cases where Telegram can potentially share data with authorities. We are providing three options to choose from.

OPTION 1: No changes. Telegram may continue to share IP addresses and phone numbers of terror suspects only based on a court decision. This option is already included in Telegram's current privacy policy.

OPTION 2: Upon request by German police authorities, Telegram may disclose IP addresses and phone numbers of suspects of serious crimes, even if not supported by a court decision. This option, if approved, would be completely new for Telegram and therefore requires a change to our privacy policy for users from Germany.

OPTION 3: Under no circumstances may Telegram share user information, including IP addresses and phone numbers of terror suspects. If this option is supported, Telegram will change its data structure and privacy policy for users from Germany.

Only users registered with German phone numbers can participate in the survey below. We have informed all Telegram users in Germany about this survey. The poll will remain open until September 5, 12:00 pm German time (UTC+2).

(Together with an attached poll)

Original: https://imgur.com/a/oHdxchb

[izzytcp]

Hi, German here.

How about not storing any information at all? Nothing to give, problem solved. Just like Signal.

I seriously don’t understand why people use Telegram instead of Signal. Any reason! The app doesn’t solve any privacy problem, default chats are unencrypted, keeps personal info. App should be dead already or turned into a dating app because it’s clearly not seriously privacy fucused.

[AnonC]

> I seriously don’t understand why people use Telegram instead of Signal. Any reason!

Any reason? I’ll give you some serious ones.

Signal sucks really bad on user experience and features. If you try both for a week or two and learn about the features, you’d be able to conclude the same.

Signal does not care about users and prevents backups on iOS. Lose your device or delete the app due to some issues and reinstall? All your chats are gone!

Signal still has message delivery issues (like long delays)…it’s 2022!!!

Signal keeps pestering me to allow notifications and to allow contacts access. I can only choose “Not Now”, since there is no option that says “No”. When I choose “Not Now”, it will say “we’ll remind you later” and pester me again. I don’t understand why anyone would assume that this app cares about privacy or about users’ time.

[matkoniecz]

UX of Signal is terrible. Part of that is a direct result of security-usability trade-offs.

> The app doesn’t solve any privacy problem, default chats are unencrypted, keeps personal info.

I am using it for public chats.

--------------------

EDIT: this is inacurate, see replies

For example I get repeated "insert PIN password here to remember it".

I have a password manager. There is no way to get rid of it, even via deeply hidden settings. For example, what about disabling it for password with length over 40? Or something?

[em-bee]

I seriously don’t understand why people use Telegram instead of Signal. Any reason!

telegram is the only chat app that offers Free Software clients, does not force me to share my phonenumber, is easy enough to use even for old people.

matrix is ok. but element is still buggy and the ux is complex and takes some learning.

another alternative is deltachat. it uses smtp as transport and works with an email account. the UX is also easy enough to use. easier than matrix/element.

[upofadown]

>How about not storing any information at all?

That wouldn't work for groups. Abusers could then destroy the groups with impunity for the purpose of censorship. Telegram is mostly about groups. Telegram is often used for activism.

Signal claims to not store data about who is talking to who. That doesn't mean that they don't. If they were, say, a secret subsidiary of the CIA they would act exactly as they are acting now. In general you can't trust the providers of these sorts of things. See Crypto AG...

[tiagod]

Poeple use it because the UX is great, as well as the bot DX. E2EE isn't a critical feature for most people picking a chat app.

Signal is a great alternative to WhatsApp. Not so much for Telegram.

[wellthisisgreat]

Because you lose all your chat history without any way to export it.

I unfortunately have convinced some of my relatives to use Signal without me looking into it beforehand.

Now because of Signal’s moronic design I dread the day when something happens and I decide I want to save all our chats for posterity / memories, but wouldn’t be able to. There is simply no “export” button. There is some way to do it on Android but on iOS we are SOL.

[nulbyte]

Sounds like option 3: "If this option is supported, Telegram will change its data structure and privacy policy for users from Germany."

[xenator]

Just to remind that Signal is bu//sh*t messenger that ask you for your phone number. And keep and share all the information with authorities. Since it is a US based company, and it is what US based companies do.

If you want to make a protected application, don't tie it to any real world data. That is very easy.

[rvz]

> How about not storing any information at all? Nothing to give, problem solved. Just like Signal.

Yeah, give S̶i̶g̶n̶a̶l̶ Twilio your phone number instead. Problem solved.

> I seriously don’t understand why people use Telegram instead of Signal. Any reason! The app doesn’t solve any privacy problem, default chats are unencrypted, keeps personal info. App should be dead already or turned into a dating app because it’s clearly not seriously privacy fucused.

They don't care and Signal offers less that what Telegram has despite Telegram being less secure. Signal is bad at selling itself.

Maybe Signal needs to offer a better user experience, backup chats across all devices and offer more useful features; not less than their competitors rather than pushing a private cryptocurrency scam project useful for criminals, scammers and money launderers.

[greatgib]

Sadly I think that it is the slippery slope for Telegram. Instead of the spirit of privacy first, they start to concede little by little for commercial interests.

First it is just the IP and phone number. Then, it will be extended to contacts. Because, why not, that can be useful also for "terrorist investigations". Then it will be chat history,because it makes sense, the police has a warrant... And telegram is technically able to...

Also, clever poll tactic to put the option 1 as looking 'moderate' in front of other extreme options.

Also, for the fighting "terrorism" argument, just remember that we are all terrorists for Russia, and that even in Europe (Germany, France, ...), A lot of high ranking gov and police officials were found guilty of corruption or abusing the system for their own interests!

[kurupt213]

I don’t think the companies sharing the info is wrong. I think sealed warrants and sealed indictments are wrong. The accused/suspected should have a chance to fight to maintain privacy.

At a minimum, users should be informed that their info was shared with government.

[hnbad]

Note that they didn't provide options for "with a warrant" and "without a warrant", they only provided options for "with a warrant but only for suspected terrorism" and "for any serious crime but without a warrant". I suspect some users would vote for "any serious crime with a warrant" but will now vote for option 1 because they still want a warrant.

[pjio]

You're right, there is no option for "serious crime but only with warrant".

Option 1 is more strict in both ways. Only Terrorism (which is more serious than "just" crime) and even then only with a warrant. Option 2 is unacceptable (IMO). "serious crime" is too ambiguous and without a warrant prone to misuse.

[danhor]

The first option is leading right now so that's probably correct. In general germans are pretty trusting of the justice system, so I'd expect "serious crime with warrant" to win (at least I'd vote for it).

[archi42]

I think this is very important: The poll is intended to be able to claim that their users want as little cooperation as possible. And giving the "((1+2)/2). any serious crime but WITH a warrant" option would have undermined that, so they manipulate the poll.

At least that's what I'm reading into this. Picking option #2 was my personal "f..k y.." to them for this manipulation; not that it changes anything. (I really don't want to have a company share info without a warrant, but when a court warrant is issued they should comply).

[atemerev]

Telegram is not a privacy-focused messenger. It is not a messenger at all, it is a dialog-based development platform, like WeChat. Most of its value is in public channels and groups, and bots. It is dead simple to build a useful Telegram bot; good luck doing this on Signal.

Wire and Threema are serious privacy-focused messengers. They have all things necessary for good privacy: full E2E, pseudonymous IDs not linked to phone numbers, multiple accounts, ephemeral accounts, side-channel authentication, etc.

Signal is something in between. It is not enough for state of the art privacy (as it is linked to phone numbers which are really tightly coupled to real-world identities), and it doesn’t provide a lot of features to be a good development platform. I think it is stuck in its current state, and no longer evolving.

[tcfhgj]

> Wire and Threema are serious privacy-focused messengers. They have all things necessary for good privacy: full E2E, pseudonymous IDs not linked to phone numbers, multiple accounts, ephemeral accounts, side-channel authentication, etc.

Matrix offers all that, and bots and public channels

[GekkePrutser]

> It is dead simple to build a useful Telegram bot; good luck doing this on Signal.

Well, obviously because Telegram officially allows and supports bots and WhatsApp doesn't and actively tries to ban them.

Thats more of a policy difference than a technical or conceptual difference IMO.

[ElCheapo]

If a company stores data about you, they WILL give it ALL to law enforcement.

How to avoid this?

Don't store any data, as simple as that.

Use p2p E2EE services. The server will only orchestrate between connections but no actual data will pass through it, giving the cops absolutely nothing except connection logs! Sure, they can still see when you connected and who you requested to talk with, but there are many mitigations and (unless they actively sniff you) they won't even have a byte of data you actually sent to that person

[eikaramba]

Current stats as of 30.08.22 14:22 are (1,166,650 votes):

41% OPTION 1: No changes. Telegram may continue to share IP addresses and phone numbers of terror suspects only based on a court decision

21% OPTION 2: Upon request by German police authorities, Telegram may disclose IP addresses and phone numbers of suspects of serious crimes, even if not supported by a court decision.

34% OPTION 3: Under no circumstances may Telegram share user information, including IP addresses and phone numbers of terror suspects.

4% No opinion / I am not from Germany

[ivan_gammel]

I’m registered with German phone number, but did not receive it. Now it’s interesting which country do they think I’m in and what kind of privacy I can expect based on that.

[traspler]

Is there anything special going on in Germany atm to prompt this? I‘m slighlty confused why they would do such a poll…

[cabirum]

Germany repeatedly threanened to ban or remove Telegram from app stores if they ignore requests to delete channels or to provide some data. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/story/germany-tel...

[z02d]

Yes, see the German article: Gouvernment and Developer conflict about free speech, cyber bullying,, ... .

https://www.golem.de/news/an-die-polizei-telegram-bittet-nut...

[funnym0nk3y]

Telegram is considered a platform for people, which do not respect the basic values of democracy like groups far right expressing xenophobia and groups which think (and express loudly) of the COVID measures as repression by some elite against the common citizen. Most of them whish for a autoritarian government. Groups which act against the constitution are observed by the Verfassungsschutz, an authority to protect the democracy and constitution in Germany. On telegram those extreme thoughts can be shared whithin their bubble which catalysts them. I don't know if this is the majority of users of Telegram (probably not), but it is strongly associated with them.

Those are the things I gathered by lightly consuming news. Maybe this is some kind of preparation for winter, where COVID cases are expected to rise in combination with very high energy prices.

[neverrroot]

Yes, a lot of pressure from the leftist government. Many channels opposing the German Covid policy (one of a kind in Europe, very strict) are to be found in Telegram. As always, there is also some German right in Telegram. The government is officially after them, but the media/government has been painting all those opposing the Covid measures as right, so… it’s tricky.

[dark-star]

I like how they are actually asking users, and not only "privacy-advocats" (who obviously push for option 3) or similar vocal subgroups.

Currently the poll stands at:

* OPTION 1: 40%

* OPTION 2: 21%

* OPTION 3: 35%

* (no opinion): 4%

with 1.3 million votes so far.

I like the outcome (personally, I don't think the "store nothing" approach of OPTION 3 is really necessary), although the 21% that push for even less privacy are a bit concerning

[freemint]

Those numbers still hold exactly like this at 1.6 million votes.

[dgellow]

Can others confirm? I’m a Telegram user, located in Germany, with a German phone number and didn’t receive such a message.

[mtmail]

I can confirm. After selecting an answer the poll even shows percentages.

[mlatu]

maybe burried by the messages directly after that one? at least for me after the poll there are two messages about animated emoji

[czottmann]

Takes a while to be sent out, I guess. My wife got her notification in the morning, I got mine 5 or 6 hours later.

[16890c]

Confirmed.

[xii23]

confirmed also, got it on my two phones

[tcfhgj]

me neither

[throwaway290]

PSA: Just a friendly reminder that definition of "terror" tends to differ wildly from government to government.

[golemotron]

Asking your users is cute, but at the end of the day, when you're served with a government request, the government prevails.

[idaseing]

Lots of people here in Germany use Telegram for their purchases of substances (a serious crime here) because they consider it safe. If there's a danger of Telegram sharing their data with the police, the app is no longer safe. If it it's no longer safe for one thing, people won't use it for anything.

[wruza]

for their purchases of substances

Purchases are where the sales at. Strange that these sellers aren’t using more secure messengers.

I believe that illegal activity is a good litmus test for a messenger, much better than forum theories or headlines. If for some reason drug dealers stay away from particular apps, so should you.

[lausbub]

Source? I use Telegram as a normal messenger because it has a good UI.

[tcfhgj]

I don't think I was asked despite having a German IP and phone number

[dark-star]

did you scroll up in the "Telegram" (service-notification) channel? The poll is in there

[loceng]

What are the odds the founders/developers of Telegram are being coerced towards this based on a possibility of evidence of illegal activities they may have done/do actively in their life? The odds certainly aren't zero?

[londons_explore]

I wonder if such 'polls' would work to gate all major changes to a popular app?

Eg. Would users have been more accepting of YouTube removing the dislike button if the proposal had won a user poll?

[ginnungagap]

Where are German users supposed to have received this message? I'm not German but my telegram account is registered with a German number and I haven't received anything

[rhwHRW]

don't share info, it might sound good now (stopping terror attacks etc) but it will snowball into oppressive governments tracking down political 'criminals'. the police will have to find another way to catch terroists.