Ask HN: How do you navigate Seasonal Affective Disorder?

[meken]

Now that the sun is setting earlier with daylight savings time, I’m finding that I struggle with the increased hours of darkness in the evenings.

I’m finding hanging out in well-lit areas with people and music in the evenings are good to counteract this (mall, cafe, gym, book store).

Do you do anything to offset fewer hours of daylight?

[marvin]

Live in West Norway. 60 degrees north. Atrocious climate. 245 rainy days each year, and on average 8.5 feet (yes) of rainfall. Average time of direct sunlight per month November-February inclusive is 45 hours. Per month.

Starting in mid-October and ending early March, I make sure to stand in direct sunlight, with the light hitting my face, for at least 10 minutes on all the days when weather permits. This entails unscheduled breaks from work, as such periods might only last a few minutes. Often combined with a walk outside. (There will often be weeks when the sun is not visible at all).

In fact, I took such a break while writing this comment, as it's the only sunlight I'm likely to see today. It was attenuated by clouds, but was very pleasant during the ~4 minutes it lasted. Had to stand up from my office chair, as otherwise neighboring houses would occlude it. I swear I'm not making this up, or even overstating the regularity with which it happens. I consider myself prone to seasonal depression, but maybe it's just the climate.

On days when I don't get my dose of sunlight, I use a daylight lamp that I sit in front of for at least 20 minutes. Often as much as an hour.

This alleviates the worst winter depression. When I feel it coming on, I feel markedly more awake after getting some more light. Also make sure to take care of myself and listen to my needs, more so than usual. Enough sleep, enough relaxation, enough socialization, enough solidude. Have been doing this routine for about a decade, and it works well.

[hoten]

Do you suspect you get a lot of psychological benefits from these habits, or something more than vitamin D supplements would provide?

https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/vitamin-d-myths-debunked

[pmoriarty]

"On days when I don't get my dose of sunlight, I use a daylight lamp that I sit in front of for at least 20 minutes. Often as much as an hour."

Does the sunlight work better than the lamp, or do you just prefer it for some other reason?

[baxtr]

I love your spirit and also like the insights you’ve shared!

Yet, I’m afraid it’s not really an option for most us (including OP I guess) to move to West Norway.

[quickthrower2]

Had to check: your typical rainfall is about the same as Sydneys rainfall this year with the year long La Nina system. That is nuts.

[madeofpalk]

It wasn't on purpose, but strangely enough I've found working from home has helped with the winter blues that I got every year in London.

The part of winter that crushed me the most was the excruciating commute in the cold in the morning, and the dark + cold in the afternoon when going home. When working from home, I no longer have to do that commute so I find it a lot easier to get through the winter.

[glotchimo]

I moved out this year after finishing uni and for the first time ever I’m not completely dreading winter, and this comment contributes. I live in the Pacific Northwest and the worst part of every day of winter was scraping ice and snow off my crappy old minivan that sat outside over night and had barely-functioning heating that didn’t kick on until I’d made it to school.

In retrospect, I’m amazed I made it through high school without snapping, what with such mornings and going home when it was already completely dark out. Teenagers are a different breed.

[jesse__]

This answer isn't particularly helpful for a lot of people, but I live in ski towns for the winters.

It's fairly frequent that I'll be skiing in full sun above the clouds, which is an excellent source of Vitimin D. When coupled with endorphine release from exercise it's basically impossible to be anything but ecstatic on that day.

That said, the principal to combat SAD, in my experience, has been vitamin D and exercise. Try to maximize your exposure/intake of those (in whatever way is possible to you) and you'll feel good :)

[takinola]

I literally just spoke with someone who mentioned that skiing during the winter helps her get over the doldrums for the exact same reasons you mention

[gizajob]

I'm in northern UK and find the dark really hellish when it kicks in every November. My solution this year is to go and spend three months in Australia, baking in the sun instead of shivering in the rain. Realise this isn't the solution you're looking for but this year I just need an actual break from the SAD-induced pallor and desire to hibernate, and the chance to take a break has come up so I'm taking it. I feel like it'll benefit my health no end, having lived in Aus in the past.

[jackschultz]

I cannot suggest enough that everyone should get a high lux light. I'm in the north midwest of the US, where there's little sun, it's cold which makes being outside much more difficult, and even when I am it's cloudy.

Last year was another fall when I could feel myself getting more and more tired and lack of energy and I couldn't figure out why. Christmas came around and my mom got our family high lux lights and literally the first time I tried it I could feel a difference. The tiredness was zapped away instantly. You can feel your body's reaction to the lux.

Pretty much whenever I'm sitting at a desk I have it on. The one I have has the ability to change the intensity, so sometimes I move it down from the max if I can feel overly bright. I plan on getting another one soon to have on the other side of my desk.

I don't have a brand to suggest, but doing test searches shows there are many different kinds. Thinking about price, they're so beneficial that from the benefits I get from it, I'd legit pay over $1k for one. Life in the dark cold winter is so much better. I hope everyone reading this gives one a try at least.

[clolege]

I grabbed some high temperature, high-CRI LEDs from http://waveformlighting.com 2 years ago and they have helped a lot. I love them because the CRI make the colors in my house look fantastic.

I put some strips around the window in my office, and plugged a bunch of A19 bulbs into a string patio lightbulb strip in my living room. Many of the bulb lights burned out quickly though, I think because they have cheap power supplies and were interfering with each other? Kinda stinks.

At the end of the day though I wish I had lights that met 3 conditions:

• Give off high CRI, full spectrum, high temperature light

• Contain simple electronics controlled by a dimmer rather than wifi-enabled

• Gradually turn on and off with the sunrise/sunset

Is there anything in the market right now for that?

[quickthrowman]

> At the end of the day though I wish I had lights that met 3 conditions: • Give off high CRI, full spectrum, high temperature light • Contain simple electronics controlled by a dimmer rather than wifi-enabled • Gradually turn on and off with the sunrise/sunset Is there anything in the market right now for that?

There are high lumen, high CRI, 5k color temp ‘highbay’ (used for warehouse lighting) fixtures available in the commercial market.

Example, puts out 40-60k lumens at 5k color temp and 90CRI: https://cree.widen.net/s/nmxpvrvfdw/the-edge-high-output-hig...

That fixture is 0-10v dimming capable, you could pair it with a photocell, room controller, and dimmer from a commercial lighting controls line to handle the automatic raise/lower and manual dimming.

These are ‘available’ in a sense, if you can find an electrical distributor to open an account you can buy these, but it isn’t as easy as just going to Home Depot.

The downside is, it’s probably $400-500 for the Cree highbay, and another $500 for a photocell, room controller, and dimmer. Then you need to wire it all up, and program the controls.

[runnerup]

I too am looking for extremely high CRI bulbs, preferably warm, 1600-2200K. Or adjust temperature. If anyone knows how to select these, please post.

CRI didn’t end up being the common consumer metric I hoped it would be. I have to rely on supplementing efficient LED lighting with inefficient halogen lights to be able to do color-sensitive activities like cooking food / monitoring skin health / some DIY electronics work. Also high CRI just contributes to overall quality of life / well-being across most activities.

[runnerup]

I moved from Michigan to Texas and my SAD nearly disappeared, through I still have some circadian issues when the sun rises too late for me to automatically wake up at an appropriate time for work/life. Or if it’s overcast for >3 days straight.

When I lived in Michigan the best help was:

- Getting an insanely bright halogen lamp in the center of my room. Bright enough to mimic the sun. This was not a normal “available in stores” 70-100W halogen, probably closer to 200-400W. Sometimes I would stand right under it, about 12” from the bulb, staring into it with my eyelids closed for 2-5 minutes.

- Embracing the cold and enjoying it. This meant not wearing a jacket sometimes and just going out in a t-shirt for 5-30 minutes, even if it was 20 degrees F outside. Finding outdoor activities which I truly enjoy and developing them into my life. Focusing on thriving rather than surviving.

- Where I lived was overcast most days, especially in the winter. We could go a whole week without the sun being visible. I made a rule to drop anything I was doing and go out and stare into the sun (with eyelids closed) anytime the sun was shining. No emergency was too important to skip this.

- Moving to even snowier areas. Being forced to shovel your driveway 1-2x every day is a great way to get the outdoor exercise needed to love the winter.

[_dp9d]

I lived in the Yukon (60 deg north) for 4 years and learned a few tricks from the locals.

- Go outside every day at lunchtime and get sun on your face. Even if it's cold, raining or whatever, it's very important to get sunlight on your face.

- Get a grow lamp if you feel really bad

- Take Vitamin D suppliments

[dave4420]

Just to add to this: it’s even more important to spend some time outside in daylight if it’s cloudy that day and there’s no direct sunlight.

[cj]

(If feasible) Wake up earlier to avoid sleeping through the morning sunlight.

In New York this means waking up around 6 or 6:30am (sunrise: 6:36am)

If you’re waking up after sunrise, shift your sleep schedule if possible so you’re awake during as many daylight hours as possible.

[AlecSchueler]

Wow, I really do forget how far south the US is! I'm in Rotterdam working 9-5 and I'm already traveling to and from work in the dark. I have to go outside on my breaks to catch any at all.

[wenc]

Sun lamp, Vitamin D etc. all help. As you mentioned, hanging out in brightly lit areas where there are people around also help.

For me one component of SAD is isolation. When I was living in big northern cities where there were people out on the streets all the time and stuff to do, I was never affected by SAD. Deep winter? No problem.

Now that I live in a suburb in a region of introverts, I feel SAD in spades. I’m an introvert but that’s a bit different from being a loner — I need people around me even if I don’t interact with them. So I go into the office instead of WFH. No many people there so I chat with the janitors and admin staff. Even this little bit of human interaction makes a difference for me.

Your emotional well being apart from the weather matters and will either compound SAD or attenuate it.

[GeompMankle]

This isn't for everyone, but if you attain sufficiently severe depression due to work/relationships/existential issues during the summer months, you will not notice the effects of varying seasonal illumination. Do have to be careful for obvious reasons though. If you are new to this, you probably should try micro-dosing on depression inducing activities during the summer to see if this is a good fit.

[Nursie]

I moved to a hotter place in the southern hemisphere, where even in winter the sunshine blazes almost every day.

Before that in the UK, as another poster suggests, I made sure to get out for a walk in the sunshine every day in the early afternoon. Get some sun on my face every single day.

[specproc]

Aye, moving somewhere brighter -- also from the UK -- completely dealt with it for me. Getting a dog also helps a lot. I'm required by a sacred and ancient inter-species oath to be out of the house for a minimum amount of time every day.

Totally get that these two solutions may not be practical for OP, but it's helped me a load.

Standard mental health stuff also applies. Any form of exercise and keeping an eye on alcohol/whatever poison intake will help.

[moneywoes]

Where

[interleave]

After moving from New York to Berlin, the impact of SAD hit me hard.

So, my short answer is: I am absolutely in love with my Luminette 3[^1]. I use it every day in the morning.

In my opinion, even though it's "just a piece of plastic with a few LEDs" (it is), I believe it's actually underpriced at 230€ because of its supreme UX compared to all other effective options.[^2]

[^1]: https://www.myluminette.com/

[^2]: https://publish.obsidian.md/alexisrondeau/%E2%AD%90%EF%B8%8F...

[alfor]

Infrared!!!! (scientifically proven)

Everyone know about UV, vitamin D and blue light to help your circadian rhythm.

But very few people know that we need infrared to keep inflammation in check. Our mitochondria use infrared light to create melatonin that remove oxidative stress from normal metabolic respiration. The melatonin we know from the brain is merely the backup plan for the night.

We have create an environment completely void of infrared (IR blocking windows, living inside, led light) and we get a lot of inflammation that trigger autoimmune disease, depression, etc.

I think that one reason why it feel so good to snuggle up to a fireplace in the winter (way better than just the heat)

This research has been done on human and mice, replicated, etc. I think there is no money to be made by the pharma (in fact a lot of money to be lost) if this was widespread knowledge.

I bought a cheap infrared heat dish at costco and healed a terrible eczema i have every winter for 20 years in a few days.

I implore everyone who has an autoimmune disease or depression to try it out. For sure the sun is better, but this can help in the middle of winter.

https://www.google.com/search?q=medcram+infrared

[pmoriarty]

"I think there is no money to be made by the pharma (in fact a lot of money to be lost) if this was widespread knowledge."

You could say the same about using ordinary light therapy to treat seasonal affective disorder... but that's widely known.

[polskibus]

Do you have citations for those claims apart from videos made by a doctor ? It certainly sounds very interesting although sunbed fans should be most healthy people on earth in such case.

[peter422]

I'm no window expert but I can feel infrared heat through my windows and I have pretty standard windows so I doubt most windows block infrared light.

[tontonius]

This sounds relevant to my interests. How big/strong heat dish did you use? And for how long at a time?

[agentwiggles]

My wife and I both get depressive around winter. I'm not sure that it is bad enough to qualify as SAD per se, but it sucks, and I always approach winter with a little bit of apprehension.

If I had my druthers I would have 2 weeks of heavy snow around Christmas and then back to spring, alas, the universe has not yet conformed to my will.

Anyway, I read this article a while back about stringing up a bunch of extra lights and how the extra light seems to ease the winter blues. I may try it out this year. Maybe worth a shot?

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/hC2NFsuf5anuGadFm/how-to-bui...

[Moissanite]

I'm unsurprised that so many comments so far relate to the UK - I became acutely aware of how bad this was for me in 2019, but have definitely suffered the effects since before that.

Vitamin D and bright lights give a bit of short-term placebo benefit, but I haven't been able to detect any longer term uplift.

Even in the good weather months (... OK, weeks) we have, I spend time wishing I was elsewhere for the usual political/social/economic reasons, but in the winter I double down on trawling emigration blogs looking for a way out.

[simonbarker87]

35 year old here in the UK and I’ve finally had enough of the weather so spend much of my time doing the same. We moved from the north to the midlands a few years a go and that helped a bit but it’s no longer cutting it sadly.

I can work anywhere but my spouse can’t - so at this point we are just working out how to make it work on potentially just one income. The joke has become “how poor are we willing to be to get away from the rain” at this point.

Oh and visa’s aren’t easy either. If only there was some simple way we could move to a European country under some kind of free movement of people act - what a world that would be.

[mistletoe]

I recently took off the big velvet curtains we had put over all the windows in the summer. What a huge change in my mood! We had created ourselves a cave we were living in as we pursued energy efficiency. Now I’m seeing the importance of natural light and windows in a house. To be honest our energy usage was exactly the same as last year for this month, when we didn’t have the curtains. I suspect a lot of free and nice heat comes in through the windows in the daytime. What spurred the change was a google photo memory from a year ago and I saw how different the house was with the beautiful old windows shining light through.

There is light during the day in winter it just doesn’t last as long, so important to get what you can. I may explore building some led lights for when the sun goes down. UFO lights on Amazon are quite inexpensive now and very efficient. Heat they generate indoors in winter works to heat the house as well and depending on your gas prices might not be that bad compared to your gas furnace or could even be cheaper so it is like free strong lighting.

https://www.pickhvac.com/calculator/heating-annual-cost/

A good calculator here. A reminder that LED lighting is ~100% efficient just like an electric space heater, as all heat generated is trapped in and heats your house. Of course things like heat pumps can reach over 100% efficiency (up to 300%!).

[sebringj]

I moved to sunny California because of this having started out in Seattle which is known for being cloudy and rainy a lot. My mood has been way better overall and I find that spending a bit of time in the sun each day makes me feel as right as rain. I would go so far as to say my life is a lot better because of this as it prevented some self loathing behavior or unnecessarily prolonged melancholy sans medication.

Probably accurate to say I'm solar powered.

[bamboozled]

One year back in my hometown the weather was so perfect for a year it kind of got me down.

It was just perfectly sunny and clear for what felt like 320 days.

Weird.

I would’ve loved to see some cold gloomy days but I hardly did.

[daggersandscars]

If your SAD is severe enough that you need to move, I'd recommend looking at the mean hours of sunshine for places you're considering moving. Wikipedia has this for many cities under "Climate".

If you're in the US, many of the "middle western" states have significant sunshine. Oklahoma, New Mexico, and parts of Colorado and Texas are surprisingly sunny.

[te_chris]

I moved to London from Auckland, NZ and really struggled for the first winter with the stark dearth of light. Tried all sorts of things: sad lamp, mindfulness, exercise, but mostly just felt miserable until March. The next year I had started taking vitamin d and mostly felt fine through the winter. I was shocked at the difference, but there’s lots of evidence around.

[wafflemaker]

Vit D here, 80ug, double the dose I take in summer.

Live in Norway 300km from northern polar circle.

From what I've understood from Huberman Lab podcast, sun affects mood mainly in two ways : 1. Vit D production, 2. Circadian Rhythm timing control.

1. First one can be supplemented. I use 80ug, as 40ug that I use in summer doesn't cut it. Found this dose trough experimenting. Too much feels like having overdosed on coffee. Too little and I don't have energy to do stuff unless I really must do it.

2. Circadian Rhythm - recommend listening to Huberman's episodes on Sleep (around 4 eps), Dopamine and motivation, and Depression. Not getting enough light in the morning makes the circadian rhythm drift, which messes your sleep, which is your daily psychotherapy. To help prevent it, you can exercise in the morning. I'm planning to buy a light therapy light on Black Friday and use it during morning 'Sun Salutations' (yoga exercise). A breakfast and warm shower in the morning can also help stop the drift.

Another thing is lights control. Phillips Hue lights can be scheduled to glow dimmer past 18:00 (I'm assuming you sleep 22 to 5:30). At night just two very dim lamps. Bathroom lamp at my place is very bright, so if I have to shower past 19, I shower with lights off and avoid hot showers in the evening.

The TV I have has 4 screen brightness &color tone settings. I've toned down brightness on all of them and one is very dark (and red tinted) for usage past 18 or 19.

Not saying that this is what will help you, but hope you can find something working for you.

P.S. If I don't want to get up early on the weekends, I at least make sure I go out for a walk before 9 o'clock. Even if hangover will put me back in bed, the inner clock got the message - at 22 we need to sleep again.