Tell HN: The ThinkPad X1 Carbon is an excellent MacBook replacement

[hunterloftis]

If you would like to develop outside of the Apple ecosystem, find Windows clunky, and dislike fiddling with Linux to get it to work on arbitrary hardware, consider the X1 with Fedora. I bought one at the recent Black Friday sale: $1,700 for a 12 Gen i7-1280P, 32GB, 512GB SSD. I love this machine.

https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadx1/thinkpad-x1-carbon-gen-10-(14-inch-intel)/21cbcto1wwus2

Physically, it's fantastic. Hats off to the engineers and designers for investing in the tactile experience. They made it lightweight but simultaneously substantial-feeling via rigidity and weight distribution. I now understand why Thinkpad keyboards are so well-regarded. Its trackpad matches Apple's, which is the highest praise I can give. The brilliant screen has an aspect ratio that's as good for building things as for consuming content. And battery life supports hours of binging netflix after compiling a bunch of code.

I've been even more pleasantly surprised by the software experience. This is a Linux workstation that "just works." Close the lid, it goes on standby - open, and it resumes instantly. Plug it into a 100Mhz ultrawide monitor via a lightning cable, and not only does it seamlessly extend the desktop at native refresh rates, but it also mounts all the devices that are connected via the monitor's integrated USB hub. I'm able to log in via my bluetooth kinesis keyboard consistently, without hassle. Updates are fast, easy, and tested on the exact hardware I'm using. I've been using it as my daily driver for a week and I've yet to dive down a rabbit-hole of outdated forum advice to get something basic to work.

Finally, and more subjectively, Fedora's out-of-the-box experience handily outshines both OSX and Windows. Window-snapping, global search, software installation via a package manager, resource efficiency, containerization support, configuration, etc.

I wanted to share here for any others who have tried, and failed, to find a legitimately better-than-Macbook development machine for the past few years.

[gryf]

There is no such thing as a macbook replacement at the moment IMHO. There is literally nothing with the same quality, battery life, thermals, audio, display, keyboard and reliability on the market. Not even the most expensive machines can get anywhere near even an M1 MacBook Air on this front. The M1 MBP destroys everything else.

I develop software on it no problems at all. We are way past targeting one platform. Linux can be the destination for sure but like hell I'm going to do the dev work on it. Years of attempting to run Linux on a laptop or desktop have left a very unpleasant flavour in my mouth. It might work today but it probably won't tomorrow and I'm getting too old to waste my time futzing. It has to work right now, properly, today with no risks.

Note: I have a mandated Dell Precision 7670 for some work, one of the most ridiculously stupid computers ever made and far more expensive in this config than a high end MBP M1 Max and it's absolutely a pile of shit from a hardware and software perspective. If you ran Linux on it, it'd be worse than if it ran windows on it, which is already terrible.

[smoldesu]

Macbook hardware is great, but you could not pay me any amount to daily-drive a recent version of MacOS. Big Sur was like the Windows 8 moment for MacOS, and it just compounded on the limitations that Apple had been building up to. Even if I couldn't have my "nice things" in Linux like KDE and VS Code, I'd still be using it simply on the basis that it behaves how I expect.

Apple has burned me too many times for me to feel comfortable paying them again. I much prefer choosing my hardware and software as opposed to suffering through whatever Apple says is right for me. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

[triyambakam]

So you ignored everything the post had to say and instead rehashed your own bitter experiences.

[sshine]

I have both a gaming laptop running Linux and a 2021 M1 MBP.

I prefer developing on the Linux gaming laptop, but anything outside of web browsing and raw development (listening to music, Bluetooth, share audio on video conference, gaming, accounting / office work, etc.) is horrible compared to MBP.

The gaming laptop has an RTX 2080, but I play games on the MBP, because Steam works better. I enjoy Steam better on Linux than on Windows, but not enough to waste hours just to relax.

[Grimburger]

> reliability

It was released 2 years ago.

> It has to work right now, properly, today with no risks.

There's still lots of desktop software that doesn't support AArch64, optimising for "just works" it seems a strange choice. Perhaps "just works (with a limited subset of programs)" seems more apt?

https://isapplesiliconready.com/for/unsupported

[hunterloftis]

I have had similar experiences to you in the past, which is why I posted about the different experience I had with the latest Thinkpad X1 Carbon that comes with Fedora Linux out of the box.

[ldjkfkdsjnv]

I completely agree. There is literally no comparison, I cannot ever imagine going back to a windows.

[acidburnNSA]

Have you tried a System 76 linux laptop like the lemur pro? Pretty fancy. I've had one since 2020 and love it.

https://system76.com/laptops/lemur

[vim-guru]

This could have been my reply. I even have the same stupid PC

[qumpis]

You say, talking about Linux: "It might work today but it probably won't tomorrow". Can you elaborate?

[SamuelAdams]

Can you provide more details about these three things?

- trackpad - your two sentences are very vague. Can you navigate with two fingers in a web browser? How is text selection? Or selecting a sentence out of a long paragraph, etc? In my experience nothing matches Apple in terms of precision and accuracy, but maybe Lenovo finally caught up recently.

- screen: I use the built in display quite a lot. The color on a MacBook Pro is really nice. How does the Lenovo compare?

- battery life: how many hours do you actually get? Your description is vauge and can be anything from 3 hours to 40 hours.

[jraph]

I'm using the X1 Carbon Gen 9 with openSUSE Tumbleweed (Plasma)

> Can you navigate with two fingers in a web browser?

On Firefox, two fingers to the left does previous, two fingers to the right does next (if you are not in a horizontally scrollable area, in which case it scrolls). Two fingers to the top or the bottom scrolls (pixel perfect). Kinetic scroll works. Pinch to zoom works (at long last!! I think it started working a year ago or something).

> How is text selection? Or selecting a sentence out of a long paragraph, etc?

I select whatever I want to select with ease. I go to the first word I want to select, double-tap, move to the last word. The text autoscrolls if I go to an edge if it's a long chunk of text. Triple tap to select entire paragraphs. D&D works quite well too.

I'm very happy with the precision with both my HP Elitebook 840 G6 and My Carbon X1. They both have a huge, reliable touchpad. I've never tried a Mac seriously though.

> how many hours do you actually get?

10-11h if I pay attention. 6-7h easily. (i7 and 32G of RAM). I hope it will improve.

The touchscreen on both machines is surprisingly usable and useful. Both machine are quiet, and they are totally silent if I'm just typing or browsing the web. The fans can spin up during a video call or compile something for a long time, but that can be prevented if needed by forcing the powersave mode using KDE's UI for this.

[ditsuke]

> - trackpad - your two sentences are very vague. Can you navigate with two fingers in a web browser? How is text selection? Or selecting a sentence out of a long paragraph, etc? In my experience nothing matches Apple in terms of precision and accuracy, but maybe Lenovo finally caught up recently.

I use the LG Gram 2022. The trackpad is nothing short of Amazing on Linux -- everything you expect works 2/3/4 finger gestures, panning; the scrolling however can use some tuning on Gnome.

[hunterloftis]

Happy to:

Can you navigate with two fingers in a web browser? Yes. I've also been underwhelmed by non-Apple touchpads until using this. I'm not sure how much of the experience is hardware and how much is Fedora 36.

How is text selection? Identical to my Macbook: move to start of selection with pointer finger, press on touchpad with thumb, move to end of selection with pointer, release thumb.

Screen: I'm not sure exactly how to answer this; I have several Macbooks and I agree their screens are nice. I like the Thinkpad's screen more for development (it seems to be less glossy/give better contrast independent of external light) whereas I think the Macbook screens look better at broader angles (for example, a couple of people watching a movie, looking at the screen diagonally).

Battery life: I'll have to run it off charger for more than a day to see when it finally dies. So far I spent one day roaming around without connecting it, during which it was under constant use: programming during the day and streaming at night. Something on the order of 8 hours.

[qumpis]

I've been using XPS 15 for many years and always felt that the trackpad experience is better (definitely in terms in accuracy and precission), and my encounters with partner's M1 air always make me question if I'm doing 'it' wrong (even after playing with the laptop for a whole day).

This frustration once led me to search for turning off the acceleration setting, which, last I searched, wasn't easily tweakable.

Anyone shares similar feeling when it comes to the trackpad?

[therealmarv]

Found recently a no go for me against Linux on desktop (it's important for my workflows):

HDR, wider color space (P3 etc) + color management for all that things are not really supported in current Wayland desktops.

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/m...

It will probably change next year (and the desktop software like players etc. need to catch up too) but monitors supporting these standards are existing for many years now. There is only Mac and Windows (Windows is even better with broader HW support actually) in this niche.

[kitsunesoba]

Color management still has major issues on Windows too. For a while I was running a calibrated profile on my Windows desktop and it doesn't consistently apply to every app, and you need to use a third party daemon to periodically reload the profile to make sure that the apps that can use it actually do. It's a mess.

[jll29]

I'm using an Apple MacBook Air M1 (2020) with 16 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD and a Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Carbon with 16 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD at the same time. As an intense power user, I care less about budget and more about the quality of the machine I use.

I ordered myself the MacBook at work and privately purchased the X1 to put Ubuntu Linux on it (curious about the M1 and having had a great experience with each of a range of past ThinkPads - X61s, X220, X230, T41).

Both machines are very light, and not very rugged (for ruggedness, go for a Dell Latitude E6400 XFR or E7450). Both fell one time each, the X1 had no visible marks, but the MacBook Air now has a visible dent just above the logo. Thankfully, both machines remain fully operable.

The X1 is great for Linux, and that's my preferred platform. I'm biased towards that because it's not proprietary, but not out of purely ideological reasons, I just want to make sure the platform continues to exist. Thankfully, the Mac also has a Unix under the hood, alas often things are in weird locations or not installed at all, so I feel less "at home" on MacOS X. Also, having been a dual Linux/Mac OS X user since 2008, I find the usability of Mac OS is decaying - many things are hidden in non-obvious places. For example, it's not helpful if scrollbars are hidden and you have to exactly hover over where they ought to be in order to make them visible first - when you are on a call and need to pull up some data quickly, this is distracting. The Mac has longer battery life, and is often superior when discovering a WiFi network nearby; it's audio also works flawlessly. In contrast, on the X1 under Linux, occasionally the headset plugged in isn't instantly recognized without some fiddling.

Both machines are very fast, with the M1 being without equal. I notice it mostly when installing/updating new software, as heavy compute jobs are usually done on clusters or in the cloud nowadays.

I end up using the Mac mostly for e-mail, making slides and going on Zoom calls, whereas any development work tends to happen more on the X1.

Neither is a perfect machine. I'd love to have a Mac with a proper keyboard, or a ThinkPad with an M1 chip, and the former would be more of an improvement than the latter because CPU speed isn't the bottleneck for my laptop usage profile. For the time being, I shall continue to carry two laptops.

[davidcollantes]

I can't speak for others, but for me it is 80% macOS (and its seamless synergy with everything Apple I own), and 20% hardware, what keeps me on Apple.

[eadz]

For me it's more the hardware. I don't think AMD or Intel can compete at all with M1 Pro.

The performance per watt is insane, and given the ML/AI thing has blown up recently, I'm happy to have the neural engine.

The Apple screen is likely still much better ( colors, variable refresh rate ), the trackpad and it's integration.

[gryf]

Yeah this. I pay for the WHOLE THING to work, not just bits of it, depending on the whim of the QA job someone did at a distro vendor. Been burned too many times.

And now we have the M1, sorry but I don't want to know on the hardware front unless Intel get anywhere near it.

[Ken_At_EM]

I like to say I go with the best operating system at the time. For most of my career that’s been macOS/X.

There was a time when I felt like what Windows had going on with Windows 7 was much better than what Apple had going on and I spent a few years primarily using a PC.

However, I’ve been back on Mac for years, and I feel like “advertisements in the start menu” indicates that Windows is going down a dark path.

I do have to keep a second PC around to use Windows as a lot of our engineering software is Windows specific, but I do most everything on the Mac.

[robot9000]

How do I copy files from my iPhone's download folder to my Mac again? My memory is rather fuzzy.

[vinhboy]

I tried developing on a PC... For whatever reason, my development setup (probably WSDL) crashes the PC every time it goes to sleep. Tried all kinds of remedies and it never worked.

Got so fed up I deleted windows and run Linux... it's working OK. It's not Mac OS X, but at least it doesn't crash.

I tried, I really tried.

[kitsunesoba]

Yeah, I'm generally more productive in a macOS-like environment too.

With how diversity and customization are such highly vaunted qualities of Linux desktops, it's disappointing that the most fleshed out DEs are all built around a Win9X-type paradigm, with the only outlier being GNOME which is what one might get if they tried to turn iPadOS into a desktop OS. Where's the DEs inspired by macOS?

[kitsunesoba]

I own a first gen ThinkPad X1 Nano and while it's a great laptop in many regards (super lightweight and tiny, great screen, has support for proper S3 sleep, and generally good in respects that x86 laptops often aren't), its CPU undermines it entirely.

Even though it's built with the lowest spec Tiger Lake CPU that was offered at that point in time, it can't keep its fan off doing anything more intensive than web browsing. Even plugging in a rather pedestrian 2560x1440 60hz monitor is enough to keep its fan running. The CPU also sucks more power than it should given its performance, even in "Power Saving" mode under Windows 10/11 and Fedora.

I wish so much that in place of its Intel CPU there was an M1. That alone would increase its appeal dramatically. The ARM-based Thinkpads Lenovo now offers are a nice step in that direction but sadly their performance trails far enough behind the two year old M1 that it isn't an ace in the hole either.

Honestly depending on how things go I might just trade the Nano in for an Air at some point and do Windows Things™ through a Parallels VM running Windows for ARM or even just an RDP session to my custom build tower.

[dlevine]

Honestly, the X1 Carbon is a nice laptop. And even if you don't want to run Linux as your main OS, Windows 11 really isn't bad. With WSL2, you can use have all of the benefits of Linux for development while being able to run whatever Windows apps you want, and it really was pretty easy to setup. You can even run VS Code on Windows and edit files in your Linux container. I had a period last year and this year where I was consulting, and used my Ryzen Desktop as my main work machine.

If I were looking to use something other than Macs (which I'm not), there are more good options now than there have ever been. Even though everything is still compared to the benchmark of Mac Laptops, which isn't an accident.

[christkv]

I’m really looking at the framework laptops as well for my next laptop. The ability to fix and upgrade it as well as what seems like good build quality is enticing.

[postit]

A long time linux user, turned to mac user, back to linux and now back to mac again disagrees with you.

The amount of time and energy I had spend fixing silly problems and integrations could've be better used somewhere.

In contrast with mac, I open it and do work and close it knowing it won't explode next time I open it.

[sofixa]

The thing is though, when there is an issue on macOS (like it complaining a USB peripheral is using too much power and it has been suspended, of course without saying which USB peripheral, or the iPad you want to extend your screen to not showing), there's usually not much you can do. The OS is pretty closed down, very specific and the majority of materials online are on the "try turning it off and on again" level. With Linux distros there might be more to debug, but at least you can debug.

PS: If anyone has any ideas about my USB device, I'm all ears. A colleague advised the system report from the Apple menu, but it's a snapshot in time, so useless for my problem.

[fsflover]

I downvoted you, because your comment doesn't bring anything to the conversation. Vague "silly problems" occur on every device, even on my microwave.

[spullara]

The M1 has completely and utterly outclassed Intel/AMD and there is no way I would buy one now except for games and ML workloads that need NVIDIA cards.

[hunterloftis]

I agree the M1 is great hardware.

However, the feeling of speed is made up of much more than just the hardware's capabilities. The OS you use, the toolchain you have access to, impacts your experience as well.

This X1 matches 92% of a 2022 MB Air's single-core performance and 94% of its multi-core performance (https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/19092431). I'm happy to wait an extra 100ms for something to compile in order to have a nicer daily experience of the machine and operating system.

[mikece]

Can it drive a pair of 4K monitors? The only reason I've not bought one of the HP DevOne units -- https://hpdevone.com/ -- is the lack of support to drive external 4K monitors.

[goosedragons]

Lenovo's tech specs for the Gen 10 Carbon say it's capable of driving 3 external monitors, 5K on the TB ports, 4K on HDMI. So dual 4K is doable.

[thefz]

Usually if you check the CPU specs on the Intel website, the integrated graphics part in the details will tell you max resolution/refresh.

[aborsy]

What is currently the best lightweight Linux laptop on market? I hear mixed reviews on System76 construction quality.

I run Ubuntu or Fedora on my laptops and desktops.

I was looking into MacBook Air, for battery life, weight and keyboard, but don’t want this MacOS black box.

How is Linux on a MacBook Air?

[midrus]

I’ve used thinkpads (and the X1 in particular) for many years. And I do think they’re the best option you have outside of the apple ecosystem. But they are far, far, far of being an excellent replacement for MacBooks. Specially after the new Apple silicon has shown up. The deep OS integration, power saving, performance, seamless upgrades of OS, build materials quality, trackpad, audio quality, etc, etc is far ahead on MacBooks.

But I do agree they are the best option if you hate or can’t pay or aren’t allowed to use apple products.

[qubitcoder]

Unfortunately, while I loved and used ThinkPads for many years, the lack of a 4k or similar hi-DPI screen immediately makes this a non-starter. As does the pitifully poor brightness and color coverage. I’ve never understood how developers could work on a low quality screen after seeing (or using) the first MacBook Pro with a “retina” screen.

That’s not to mention the performance and heating issues that plague every high-end Windows laptop (i.e. the Dell offers 4k screens and above, such as the XPS 17”, but they suffer from thermal issues, suspend issues, and atrocious sound—not to mention being heavy and cumbersome).

Speaking from experience, having used Linux on a laptop as a primary development machine on-and-off for years, you’ll spend many hours of your life trying to fix trackpad issues, suspend and hibernate problems, fan issues, graphic driver hell, boot issues after kernel upgrades, Bluetooth and Wi-Fi “quirks”, etc. And that’s on Dell’s XPS line, not some oddball laptop.

Let me know when there’s a manufacturer that produces laptops with Apple’s XDR screen quality, similar performance, thermals, sound, build quality, reliability, etc., and with the ability to run Linux natively. Competition would be fantastic. Realistically, I don’t see it happening anytime soon.

I do, however, miss the keyboard and “nub”.

[hnbear]

In a previous role at a Macbook only shop one team requiring linux machines got X1 Carbons as they best linux machine generally available and easily supportable.

Through a roughly 5 year period of trying various models they were consistently pretty reliable, and very easy to run Debian or Ubuntu on (our standard linux OS), through multiple OS versions too.

The screens and trackpads definitely weren't Apple quality. Not bad, but switching between my Carbon and my Macbook was pretty jarring. That said, it paired up immediately with my Logitech mouse (MX Master) that I got for it, and it was easy to get the driver to show things like mouse battery in the linux menubar, something macOS won't do for you.

Generally everything just worked out of the box, including things like USB-C charging, which was great to share chargers with the Macbooks.

The biggest issue we consistently faced was TPM support. At least once a year a kernel upgrade would totally bork a couple of machines as the TPM got reset of corrupted, meaning the machines would need to be wiped and rebuilt. After the first people would update and get broken we'd just warn the team to be careful around those updates.

[ThePhysicist]

I'm using both a 16'' Macbook Pro (M1) and a 14' Lenovo T14 (Gen 3), the former mostly for work and the latter for personal computing using Linux (Kubuntu). Both machines are great, the new T14 was the first laptop I was happy to replace my T460p with. I tried a few of the earlier Lenovo models but they were terrible and hardly offered any performance improvements over my 5 year old model.

The Macbook is of course an amazing device, build quality is great and if you're a fan of MacOS it's the perfect machine. It has a humongous battery as well (almost 100 Wh I think), which really gives it an edge over the T14 (50 Wh), especially since the base power draw is lower (7W vs. 11 W), which itself is ridiculous given the larger screen size. That said the T14 is the perfect Linux machine, everything works out of the box without issues, even the touchscreen and the fingerprint reader. There is still a minor issue when suspending/waking up (touchpad reactivity will degrade), but I hope there will be a fix soon.

[jmclnx]

Lets see:

> Integrated Intel® Iris® Xe Graphics

No Nvidia, nice, may work with OpenBSD

> 8 GB LPDDR5-6400MHz (Soldered)

Why Soldered Memory, not good. And who sells 8gb memory with a serious look :)

> 256 GB SSD M.2 2280 PCIe TLC Opal

Fine by me

> Intel® Wi-Fi 6E AX211 2x2 AX vPro® & Bluetooth® 5.1

Should be fine

> 14" WUXGA (1920 x 1200)

Edit, not bad I think - seems even better than 16:9, more vertical resolution, nice.

All in all, sorry, I will pass due to the Soldered Memory. But looks like a nice machine that could be used with a BSD

[benced]

I had one and quite liked it (gen 6 I think?). One caveat is that my E key broke and I swapped it. However, I noted the date and from the relative frequency of how often E is used (most common letter) vs A (second most common letter), I was able to accurately predict the month my A key would break. That’s… not great.

Carbon is a great material though - apple needs to stop with aluminum.

[not_me_ever]

I own the 16", i9 (>$5000) version of this, and I must say: a) It's one of the best PC notebooks I ever owned. b) It's a piece of crap.

The keyboard is very (VERY!) wonky, got two replacements, it's systemic. The touchpad dies every 2-3 weeks, Lenovo service has been great, getting me a new one within 2-3 days every time, I gave up on replacing it after two months, and just use ... sorry ... a magic trackpad. The middle of it started bubbling up about 3 months in - leaving about a 3-5mm gap when closing the lid. Not that the lid ever closed tightly anyway. Don't even get my started on battery life. It doesn't exist.

Switched from using Fedora to PopOS. Which - for me - is an even better experience.

And just to be clear: It's the hardware that's crap, not the software. And: I have been a ThinkPad user for the last 30 years. Still have my 700C, and all the models inbetween.

[poisonborz]

I'm happy that OP is happy, but he points out to the most highly regarded model of the most beloved non-Apple laptop brand as a great alternative...

And while X series Thinkpads are solid workhorses with reliable warranty, this is not true. I'm not even talking about that Lenovo/the whole segment still doesn't have a competitor for the original M1 with battery life/performance. But due to old rotten deals they are only offered with Intel CPUs that have terrible thermals, throttling, and have shaky Arc GPU drivers. I can't even choose them with the better AMD options out of the already uncompetitive x86 options. There are other lines like the Yoga 7 Gen 7 (that is more aimed at the macbook crowd) but those lack the business features that would put them somewhat in line with value.

Most serious non-Apple laptop makers are in a Catch-22 with their lucrative Intel exclusivity contracts.