Recently, there are more and more studies that smartphones harm learning and not a single study with the opposite results. However, very few parents have the guts not to buy a smartphone for their child. At what age do children in the HN crowd begin to have censored access to proprietary software (personal supervision) and uncensored (smartphone with or without parental controls)? Are there families where children have access to computers with only FOSS before they have access to proprietary software?
[+] [-] brudgers|2 years ago|reply
My child is grown but grew up during the iPhone era.
Anyway, I had a policy.
It lasted until middle school.
Then we had a conversation.
And worked things out together.
That's my recommendation because in the long run, conversation and negotiation are the only tools you really have.
Good luck.
----
Appendix:
1. FOSS is your value. Your child is not you. If your child thinks FOSS is cool, it's cool. If they think it is lame, you are being lame.
2. Parental controls are only as good as someone else's parents. Your child can look at naked people on someone else's phone.
3. Around middle school, your child's peers begin to have massive importance. It is not that you cease to be important. But you are going to have to share influence. Even if you try to forbid such sharing.
4. It is better if parents grow as their children grow. Growing is on you because you are the adult.
[+] [-] gpt5|2 years ago|reply
1. Technology and screen time aren't the problems; it's the lack of passion and interests that is the root problem. Cultivate passion in your child and expose them to new things. You'll immediately notice a positive change in how they use their screen time to pursue these interests. When they watch gaming videos or unboxing on youtube they do that because that's their current passion.
2. Your control over your children diminishes over time. Build trust early on and allow them to make mistakes; these are invaluable teaching tools. It's better to teach them good habits concerning technology while you still have influence, rather than later when your control is limited.
3. There are real costs associated with not allowing your child largely unrestricted access to technology. These costs include social drawbacks, a significantly reduced ability for them to explore their passions independently, and long-term tension between the child and the parents due to a lack of trust.
[+] [-] intrasight|2 years ago|reply
My daughter did get a feature-phone in middle school and then a smartphone in high school. I never set any limits - but I was fortunate to have a child who managed her time exceptionally well. I wonder how much of that came from her not having smartphone exposure when young.
I do feel for parents today.
[+] [-] tstrimple|2 years ago|reply
So much this. Kids are living, breathing, thinking human beings. They are immature yes. But that doesn't remove the value of their opinions or their agency. And it's not to say you give them everything they want, but that you find common ground and aren't seen as dictating things without reason. If you can explain your point of view in terms they understand, compliance is far more likely.
For the most part, my kids have unlimited access to electronics and the internet. Yeah, sometimes they watch stupid TikTok videos or silly toy reviews on Youtube. Other times they are learning how to code or learning how to knit or how to make slime from common household materials, etc. Last week I baked bread with my daughter because she found a recipe on TikTok she wanted to try out. They sometimes watch content I don't like or agree with, but often that's resolved just by talking about why I don't think it's good content or sending a good message. I've talked to both of my daughters about why I don't like SSSniperWolf content as an example. Usually this works out fine, but none of the things they watch are so egregious I feel like I need to cut them off. And who am I to judge the occasional mindless entertainment when I've always done the same and I can readily see it's a small portion of the content they are consuming?
When I hear folks talking about zero access and no smart devices until X years, I have to ask myself where the trust and relationship exists between these parents and their children. I just can't imagine not having enough of a relationship with my kids to not have a good understanding of what they are up to online and how they are perceiving it. I can't imagine not being able to trust the values that I've instilled in my children and having to cut them off from the world to hide that neglect. Further, I feel these sort of blanket bans put kids into a position where they feel they need to hide what they do from their parents online which is the absolute opposite of what they should be thinking.
That said, we do have restrictions. No electronics during dinner or shared entertainment sort of things. People scrolling social media during movie time is a pet peeve of mine. The electronic devices are not an escape from small talk during boring family dinners or the slow part of the show we're watching.
[+] [-] rhn_mk1|2 years ago|reply
FOSS is the software author's value. It correlates with the author's intentions, their incentive and the software's shape and influence on the user – your child. It's a way to delineate content you want your child to see and that which you don't (and thus we circle back to the idea that you imposing a policy ultimately means imposing your values anyway).
[+] [-] foozed|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] agnivade|2 years ago|reply
> And worked things out together.
You make it sound so simple. What if your kid simply doesn't listen? They are smart, so they know that if they keep nagging, they will eventually get what they want.
[+] [-] zamalek|2 years ago|reply
Yup, don't turn them into a pariah due to the color of chat bubbles (not having iPhone-colored bubbles was recently a major social problem for American teenagers). The color of a bubble might seem stupid to someone dealing with the issues of the adult world, but social issues is basically/hopefully the extent of problems that kids face.
That being said, parents have been successfully imparting values to their children for millennia. If you believe that using FOSS is important (I happen to agree) then you should have no issues convincing your child the same. Maybe they'll end up using Linux on their laptop, while prioritizing the color of chat bubbles on their phones. You can only give them the tools and knowledge to make the right choices, you can't make choices for them.
[+] [-] eitally|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] plutoh28|2 years ago|reply
I mostly mindlessly watched Minecraft youtube videos, lets play videos, and would occasionally play some mobile game.
Pros: - Developed my vocabulary by listening to adult conversation (commentators) - Became adept with technology by getting familiarity with navigating the internet and jailbreaking the devices - Became a fast typer - Was able to easily make friends who watched similar YouTubers
Cons: - Difficulty focusing - Became impulsive as having instant access to technology is a form of instant gratification that was drilled into me - Learned every swear at 6 years old - Discovered porn at 7 years old
Regardless, I do think I turned out fine. I was a straight-A student throughout my entire K-12 education, made plenty friends, and have maintained an ambitious outlook on my career.
[+] [-] gfodor|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 2Gkashmiri|2 years ago|reply
i don't see myself as "impulsive" like you describe. I got online when i was 8 and have been online since that day. its been so long...
a few years ago we were talking something and the idea was "internet gets boring after a while" and i responded almost instantly "the buzz i felt the very first time i opened a website, i still get that all these years later, every single time".
instant access to information i'd say. not technology. in the first 5-8 years, there was no facebook or whatever and i had learned the mantra "lurk moar" so it was always a one sided "uh... how about reading about skateboarding" or "what's the nazkca lines" because i saw on TV.
i would read something in books or on tv or newspaper and i could summon the internet and give me more details.
i don't see that as instant gratification but satiety at looking for information and getting it. you have an encyclopedia open at any page so you are being given the data you requested.
instant gratification is in regards to imo the whole social media, twitter, facebook, tiktok.
does anyone become "addicted to wikipedia" for example?
[+] [-] sameerds|2 years ago|reply
And yes, +1000 for a larger vocabulary!
[+] [-] nchase|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pickingdinner|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yumraj|2 years ago|reply
No social media apps on the phone. Parental control (iOS) so need Parent permission before installing apps
At home most/almost every non-professional social media is blocked via pi-hole
I’m not on FB, Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok etc. I think this is very very important for the above since kids see that parents are also not on social media. Most people, IMHO, run into trouble when they use it but want to restrict kids.
This mostly worked for a kid who just went to college. Will see if it works for the other.
Edit: have Switch and PS5, but multiplayer internet games are not allowed. Offline games only.
Edit2: I occasionally remote login into computers to tell the kids that I can do that. I think/hope it reduces temptation.
[+] [-] LVB|2 years ago|reply
It's not a fun conversation and he isn't happy, but I feel like this time around it was a bit more productive and less of the vibe that we're just saying no to be mean.
[+] [-] AnonC|2 years ago|reply
He’s still feeling left out though. That’s one of the worst experiences for any human being of any age anywhere. Rational thinking and justifications cannot solve or permanently remove these emotions, more so at a younger age (I’m not dismissing your son or implying that younger kids cannot have greater awareness and rationality).
I feel sad that he doesn’t have a smartphone (even a locked down one with some restrictions).
[+] [-] spoonjim|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] s3p|2 years ago|reply
--
I think you should have honest conversations with the kid about what you think is the good and bad about having phones, then share with them personally how you've felt while using it. There are times tech can be awful, but also times it can be really helpful.
[+] [-] prepend|2 years ago|reply
Gave unlimited books and magazines.
Elementary school- bought an iPad with screen time and “no devices upstairs” (all bedrooms were upstairs). 30 minutes on school days, 60 minutes on weekend. Wi-Fi rules to shut off at night. Pihole to block porn and YouTube.
Middle school got laptops with same controls. And a gaming pc in the living room.
No instagram until 13. This was hard because all other kids got at 10 or earlier. Am trying to push this to 16 with later children.
High school- same laptop, little more screen time and later Wi-Fi turnoffs.
Phones with data when they have jobs and can afford to pay directly.
Hard to tell if this “works.” Have done some tests of how much screen time and apps and behavior was very different for the worse with more screen time. Things like more arguments. Less time creating art or playing in person with friends with more screen time.
[+] [-] l33t7332273|2 years ago|reply
Maybe I’ve got brain worms because I had more or less unrestricted internet access since the time I was able to use a computer, but it feels like it wasn’t overly harmful.
I spent far more than an hour behind a screen and I think I’m better off for that time. I spent a lot of time learning to program, learning mathematics, and consuming general knowledge content via things like vsauce, scishow, minute physics, cgp grey, crash course, etc.
However, I also spent a lot of time on reddit which I’m certain wasn’t ideal for my social development. I understand this case may not be typical and maybe not even reproducible given the addictive content machines like tik tok, reels, and shorts, but I think having the freedom I had was a net positive.
[+] [-] rootusrootus|2 years ago|reply
They have lots of other things to do, too, of course. We have a Switch, Xbox, trampoline, swimming pool, hot tub, and a neighborhood full of other kids their age. They would probably spend more time on YouTube than I'd prefer if I didn't put a cap on it, but it's been basically fine so far. We do have a rule against iPads in bedrooms with closed doors, though that is starting to relax a bit with the 12 year old.
Kids grow, you kinda have to roll with it and adjust to fit the situation. You can't keep them innocent forever, and if you try, you will not get the well adjusted adult you're aiming for. We have some family who are hard core home schoolers (for religious reasons) and it turns out a disaster more often than not. They're so worried about public school indoctrination but are then surprised to find their own kids refuse to be indoctrinated at home.
[+] [-] eli|2 years ago|reply
1) It's much more nuanced than you're making it out to be. There are a lot of studies that show overuse of phones ("phone addiction") is bad for academic performance. Going beyond that runs into some serious correlation/causation problems. For example, children in lower income families spend significantly more time in front of a screen than middle-class families.
2) Is "learning" the sole issue you're concerned about? There are studies that show cell phone bans are harmful in other ways: reducing social interaction, student happiness, and feelings of safety.
If you look at the above two points together I think you can draw a conclusion that smartphones, like most other things, are fine in moderation and potentially problematic at the extremes.
Here are the AAP recommendations about screen time: https://www.aap.org/en/patient-care/media-and-children/cente... AAP has a reputation for being conservative and evidence-based in what they recommend.
EDIT: I found a high-quality study from just last year that should no association between the age a child acquires a phone and depression, grades, or sleep quality. https://srcd.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/cdev.13851
[+] [-] dash2|2 years ago|reply
* Commenters here are a highly selected sample. Many people are saying "I got lots of screen time as a kid, and all I did was learn computer programming." Well, sure, they're on HN! But your kid may not be like that.
* This is equally true for any parenting strategy. "My parents did X and I turned out great" is not necessarily informative because most people who are reading HN probably turned out OK.
* People's own parenting strategies are also non-typical ("I set up squid and created a whitelist..." is beyond most people). But maybe that's ok because you the reader are from the same atypical sample.
[+] [-] omnicognate|2 years ago|reply
I also use Wireguard to route my own mobile phone traffic through my home network. When the time comes to give the kids smartphones (which I'm in no hurry to do) I will initially give them managed devices with always-on wireguard to the home network, so traffic goes through the same proxy. The set of available apps will also be restricted.
We talk a lot about the complexities, opportunities and dangers of the internet and the kids are accepting of the restrictions.
The technology exists to manage this. It's the same stuff companies use for byod. It's just that nobody makes it easy for parents to do it.
[+] [-] loudmax|2 years ago|reply
My two sons were born in the early 2000's. When they were in elementary school, they had access to a desktop computer in our living room (running Gentoo Linux). In early elementary school, they had whitelist of web sites they could access, with Wikipedia as the home page. They each had about an hour a day, under parental supervision.
In middle school, they had tablets, which we made them turn in before bed time. I installed Minecraft on the desktop. Battle For Wesnoth is pretty good too.
In high school, we got them cell phones, and the school handed them laptops. We made them turn electronics in before bedtime, but we relaxed this as they got older.
I absolutely recommend setting boundaries. Properly instilling discipline in children takes a lot of self-discipline as a parent, and maintaining these boundaries can be a lot harder than it sounds. Be prepared for arguments. For better and worse, their cell phones are their connection to their peers, much of it mediated by Instagram and Snapchat.
It depends a lot on the kid too. Turning in the cell phone before bedtime became a major point of contention with my older son. We never had those problems with the younger one. I don't think we treated them that that differently, it's just how their personalities are. I think the kids turned out okay in the end. The older one is now serving in the US Marine Corps and the younger one just left for college a few weeks ago.
Love your kids, and stay involved with them. Then slowly let go.
[+] [-] jackson1442|2 years ago|reply
If you set restrictions, your kids will almost certainly find ways around them. Maybe they figure out how to do it on their own device, but they almost certainly have a friend with unrestricted internet access anyways.
If you reason with your kids and set boundaries (at an appropriate age), they learn _why_ restrictions might be set. This means that after you would have stopped directly applying restrictions, they use self control to moderate themselves.
Obviously it depends on the kid. My parents went both routes and _every single time_ they set a hard restriction I found a way around it. When they blocked websites with online games, I learned how to set up a proxy to a computer on the network without restrictions. When they added parental controls on an iOS device, I found out that factory resetting from Find My wipes the restrictions (factory reset on the device is blocked when parental controls are enabled). When a more stringent network block was applied, I learned about DNS and how to bypass DNS-based internet restrictions.
But they reasoned with my about social media and generally nurtured my curiosity, so I just don’t find myself interested in any traditional social apps. I’m definitely not immune to digital addiction, but I’d rather be addicted to interesting link aggregators than Instagram.
Also- consider setting different limits for different kinds of content. I think video games are probably a better use of time than TV since they’re engaging and typically require thought, but a good documentary is educational and should be considered as such (a strict passive-consumption limit may encourage a kid to watch more “junk food” content while eschewing content that’s actually educational). Maybe defined limits aren’t the way to go, or maybe exceptions should just be the norm.
One thing I’d add is that you should apply similar standards to yourself when setting boundaries. Even if I wasn’t feeling obstinate about a particular restriction, seeing my parents flagrantly violate that themselves just made me want to bypass it—and I did!
tl;dr at a certain point kids are people and can reason for themselves—to a degree; consider this when setting limits, restrictions, or boundaries.
[+] [-] aeyes|2 years ago|reply
I had unlimited access to a PC since I was about 10 (no Internet until I was 16). 3 years later I knew the operating system inside out because of course back in the day of DOS and Windows 95 stuff broke easily and I'd try to fix it. I'd just tinker with it endlessly, started to read books about computers and tried to find out how it all worked. I started coding when I was 14, just learned it on my own by having a book and with curiosity.
I never would have made it in this industry if it wasn't for spending endless hours with my computer for years before I had less and less time when I got older.
A few years ago my parents told me that the best thing they ever did for me is to buy me a computer. I agree.
I'm no genius by any means but every once in a while young hackers with incredible skills appear out of nowhere. I'm sure that all of them have a similar story to tell you.
I can get behind the idea of limiting social media and video time. But screen time in general - not so much.
[+] [-] ryandrake|2 years ago|reply
If you limit your kid's screen time to some arbitrary amount that you yourself cannot even achieve, you're transparently sending the message that you're full of shit and kids know when you're full of shit.
[+] [-] waprin|2 years ago|reply
My daughter loves grabbing our phones and watching whatever she can pull up on them, dialing people. If you take it away she gets upset. At first I was thinking, wow phones are very addictive on a primal level, she's addicted to just the flashy screens.
I think the flashy screen being tempting might be a little true, but then I came to a different conclusion about why she was so fascinated with the phone.
I noticed she also "changes" her stuffed animals diaper including pretending to apply rash cream, pretends to read books laying around she's seen me read, fidgets with the same household items she's seen me fidget with. That's when I realized what may be obvious to people experienced with kids - they constantly imitate the adults in their lives.
So my daughter was probably obsessed with staring at a phone because she saw her parents obsessed with staring at their phones and wanted to imitate them.
Of course this may be more relevant for very young kids moreso than teenagers, where the smart phone addictions work at a higher more cognitive level. But it did drill home the message that our children can be a reflection of ourselves so if you want to improve their lives, improve your own.
[+] [-] ip26|2 years ago|reply
Some good steps are zero phones at family eating times, kid book time, and kid bed time. I personally also think it’s important you are visibly alone when you are on a screen, in other words don't let your kids see you ignoring another adult for the screen. Like a modern smoke break.
[+] [-] apsurd|2 years ago|reply
I'm an uncle to a 5 and 7 year old. They call you on your bullshit all the time! And even as a non-parent I get that it's hard to always have to debate a 5 year old, but they DO recognize and intake consistency, even if they don't have the capacity to understand logic and rationality. yet.
You gotta set a consistent and reputable example. Or else you're just making a human that understands power.
[+] [-] jonny_eh|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] steve_adams_86|2 years ago|reply
The ability for young children to recognize hypocrisy is incredible, and the aptitude among teenagers to leverage hypocrisy to enable their own bad behaviour and use yours against you isn’t something worth contending with. You can only win by force, and your kids will resent the hell out of you for it. And for what? To look at your phone more?
Do any of us find ways to use our phones in worthwhile ways more than 15m in a day, truthfully? I sure as hell don’t. But I can sink a lot more time than that if I don’t think about what I’m doing.
[+] [-] graemep|2 years ago|reply
Also, talk to them. Tell them what the dangers are, tell them what they need to talk to you about.
I just had a conversation with my 15 year old about who she talks to online, how she decides what is trustworthy, the fact that conmen and paedos might play a long game etc.
[+] [-] dragonwriter|2 years ago|reply
You can’t tell people “don’t get addicted to X” (I mean, you can tell them anything, but telling people not to get addicted isn’t an effective measure to prevent addiction, generally, and hypocrisy isn’t the main reason.)
[+] [-] aconsult1|2 years ago|reply
My wife and I have a policy that when we're eating no screens are allowed unless it's an emergency. I think this probably has the biggest effect of all. Also we have zero social networks (except professional ones).
I'm so tired of going to restaurants and seeing the entire family looking at their screens. The bigger the kid the bigger the screen. Technology really has killed social interaction and I try my best to raise my kids out of this mass hypnosis everybody seems to be in.
When we go out to eat my table is always kind of a mess because my two year old is all over the place. And that's fine. We can deal with it and we have some fun. I really don't buy he argument to giving kids a screen during meals so the adults can talk. Kids must engage in any conversation they want or simply sit and listen to adults talking. That's how they learn. If they're constantly zooming out then they won't learn how to behave properly.
I find it too convenient that adults who never had problems with this kind of addiction (because those devices did not exist) continue to feed their kids with algorithms.
Once my kids get to an age that they are more responsible I'll handle them a device and set boundaries. Since we (the adults) have been showing boundaries since the beginning I think it will work just fine.
So yeah, lead by example!
[+] [-] stevekemp|2 years ago|reply
(Some children walk, some cycle, and others take the regular busses and trams, depending on the distance involved. In our case the child has to walk a few hundred meters, and not cross any roads at all, so it's an easy walk for him.)
Because school finishes around 2pm we've just recently given him a phone so he can say "I'm going to play outside", "I'm coming [to the empty] home", or "I'm going to friend XXX for a couple of hours". It isn't a proper smartphone, but it does allow more than an old-school Nokia.
We've generally allowed 30 minutes of "screen time" a day, sometimes that has been watching selected youtube videos, sometimes playing Super Mario Bros on the nintendo, and sometimes it has been watching TV. I expect the dynamic will change a little more now, but not hugely.
Parental controls will be setup to allow more access between 1pm and 6pm, but I expect that we'll not allow access in the mornings or "late" at night, just to ensure there's not too much obsessive use.
When/If the child can route around the parental controls I think we'll "reward" that creativity with more access. Need to encourage the hacker-mindset :)
[+] [-] hedora|2 years ago|reply
They did find the games menu, which is full of OSS educational stuff.
2) Dosbox: The 1990’s were the golden age of educational software. Abandonware sites are your friends.
3) The parents at school recently held a bit of an intervention for the parents of the 2nd grade kid with a tablet, cell plan and youtube.
4) The switch is a surprisingly good product. Game builder garage is well done.
5) iPad’s guided access mode lets you lock it into a single app (eg; Kahn Academy Kids, PBS kids, etc). If that’s too spendy, Alcatel (of all companies!) makes landfill-grade android tablets with extremely good parental controls. (Google’s built in parental controls include mandatory account sign in and tracking, so screw that). This model is good enough (It’s $100 for a renewed one on Amazon). https://us.alcatelmobile.com/alcatel-joy-tab-2/
[+] [-] gwnywg|2 years ago|reply
As for computer access, I gave my kids access to my old PC running arch linux with some open source games, like minetest or supertuxkart. There are complaints that games are not as slick as they have seen when visiting other kids, but similarly to smartphones- they tend to accept my reasoning.
I don't let my kids to watch youtube unattended, I'm not happy with youtube recommendation system and more importantly with ads they serve. Luckily I got to the point where each time my kids see something weird on the internet they are either turning off or switching with some funny comment about the content.
[+] [-] mfgs|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jasonfarnon|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dryrun|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brzl|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EvanAnderson|2 years ago|reply
We're right on the cusp of giving her a laptop w/ some flavor of desktop Linux and LibreOffice. She has expressed interest in typing versus hand-writing schoolwork. I'm also considering giving her an offline copy of Wikipedia, and perhaps a typing drill app. Edit: No network access, though. Strictly an offline machine.
She has sent text messages to me with her mother's phone a few times and had a lot of fun. I wish she had a phone for emergency calls and perhaps text messages only with specified contacts. (There are times I find myself wishing I could email or text her... >smile<) Her mother and I are Apple phone users, albeit w/o iCloud accounts and minimal interaction w/ the Apple "mothership". I wish their parental controls didn't require using iCloud.
Edit: Her mother and I already had a "no phones in restaurants" policy before we had the child. Having her around has helped reinforce that since we didn't want to be rude and effectively ignore her at restaurants. (Although once she learned to read she'd just read her book and ignore us. >smile<)
[+] [-] jackson1442|2 years ago|reply
I don’t believe they do unless you want to be able to configure them from your own phone. It actually seems to be more reliable[0] if you do an entirely offline screen time setup. You can also use Apple Configurator to create configuration profiles that definitely do not require Apple IDs to use (though installing Configurator on your laptop does require an Apple ID since it’s distributed though the App Store).
[0]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2023/08/05/apple-io...
[+] [-] baz00|2 years ago|reply
I am 100% against completely banning them from using it as it excludes them from important social situations and an anti-technology policy hurts them in the long run.
They're here to stay: be a responsible parent and help them use them safely. Reward what they do well, don't punish them up front.
Edit: my eldest is 2nd year at university now. Without the technology focused upbringing she would have the burden of learning that on top of the education. Now she zooms around on her iPad Pro / Apple Pencil as an extension of herself. No technology is a barrier to her.
[+] [-] MarcScott|2 years ago|reply