Ask HN: Have you been affected by layoffs?

[dirtybirdnj]

Hello,

1. Have you ever been laid off from a job for reasons that were not related to your performance?

2. Did this affect your job search / career afterwards?

3. Do you feel that being laid off from a job prevented you from recovering due to social stigma around being under / unemployed?

Context:

Yesterday I made a comment about layoffs, corporate ethics and the behavior of C-level folks as it affects the working population. I respect the comment I made wasn't helpful, but I do think there is a meaningful conversation to be had about the topic. I hope this can lead to more constructive criticism about the actual subject, which is how layoffs affect people beyond the job they are immediately losing.

[Apreche]

I was at a company that got bought. Shortly thereafter they started laying people off. For some reason I wasn't. I was one of the last ones there, commuting to a mostly empty office not doing much. Obviously by that point I was already deep into a job search.

They did some shenanigans to try to fabricate reasons to let me go with cause, presumably to save money. It had absolutely no impact on me afterwards in any way whatsoever. I got a new job within a month or so. It was a much better job that I stayed at for way too long.

I feel worse about the people who were laid off before me. The company took everyone on a big team building type trip to a tropical place. I refused to go. After everyone got back from the trip they started the layoffs just before the holidays. I told that CEO straight to his face he was a scumbag. That people probably would have rather had their paychecks through the holidays than some vacation with their co-workers, would they have known.

And yet, somehow the person who didn't go on the company trip, and stuck it to the CEO was one of the last ones still around.

[jklein11]

To be fair to the CEO, the layoffs were probably happening either way and the tropical team building activity probably didn't have an impact on the size/scale of layoffs. The acquiring company was going to cut head count and needed the impact to show on their financial statements starting Jan 1. No way to keep people through the holidays. The extra expense in the previous year might even have been encouraged because it would make the following year look like they were doing an even better job of stream lining.

[dirtybirdnj]

Serious plot twist at the end, didn't see that one coming.

The "party before the storm" pattern is something I have experienced myself.

[yardie]

The company holiday was probably planned months in advance. Usually, contracts are signed and it's very hard to get out of it. They could have not gone on retreat, paid for the hotels and flights anyway, and still laid everyone off. The C-levels probably worked on the levels a few weeks before it happens.

[havnagiggle]

Similar story here but possibly a bit more fun. New VP came in and less than 6 months later demanded the org switch to some proprietary (expensive) agile methodology that had some theory that orgs with more than like 150 people are too big to be efficient. Nevermind the fact that we were an org with multiple large car OEM customers with 6-12 projects going on constantly, creating new features, quoting for new projects, QA and integration, first line support, etc. We were a big operation, but for pretty good reasons. No magic was going to happen for the business by just going to 150 head count.

VP first tries to do this re-org. In the middle of it, announces they are closing our office as part of the reorg. Our office was a remote one in the suburbs, and probably looked pretty good on paper that we should be the first to get cut. The kicker was we were a power house of the org. ~25 engineers with the majority being senior/principal engineers, each responsible for huge parts of the software stack, and also responsible for actually making sure projects were shipped. Everyone had some experience over the years having long nights working with OEMs in Germany, Japan, etc. for final deliveries.

They made the announcement with an end date in 2 months and everyone got some severance package on top of that. That's not a bad deal at all. Everyone was laid off, including my manager, except me. I had a few meetings with the VP and others to figure out what they were going to do with me. I asked for California salary while working remote. They said no, but they can offer me a ~60k bonus with a fork-back clause if I leave (or get fired) within 2 years. I said that's a joke, I'd rather take a severance package and we part ways. VP was not happy about it and he was quite heated about it. IDK maybe be was used to getting what he wanted. Negotiations stopped there. No severance was offered and I was demanded to work in the office even if it was empty (they still had a lease). I started applying like crazy and landed a FAANG job, but with a start date a few months out.

The 2 months were honestly just excellent. Everyone had a great time shooting the shit around the office. Helping each other interview, playing ping pong, long lunches, etc. Most landed at good jobs within the 2 months so they banked the severance. Nobody did any work. As I mentioned, our manager was let go too and he gave 0 shits. Projects got fucked. The company sent ~3 people from India in the last week to do a "brain dump" with the seniors. Calling it a disaster was an understatement. They all flew home and the office was emptied... except for me!

My start date was still in a few weeks, so I decided to just pester my VP's bosses about his terrible decisions, asking about a severance package, etc. Leaving messages for c-suite a few times a week. Sure enough, I got an email back from c-suite! They said the severance offer will be coming soon.

VP waits another week before sending me the package. The offer was beyond ridiculous. I needed to stick around for another ~4 months and had a ton of AIs that they would determine if I satisfied or not. It included: (1) ship a bunch of shit, (2) go to India to train several hundred engineers, (3) continue shipping a new SDK I had spearheaded up until the layoffs. The icing was they gave me a lower offer than the standard severance. I forwarded it to everyone and said this is ridiculous, there's no way I am accepting this. Please give me a workable severance package. HR and VP set up a call with me the next day. I took the call, got berated by HR for being a bad employee and will be put on a performance plan, yada yada. I just hung up in the middle and walked out of the office for good and enjoyed the vacation.

The worst part: VP moved to a different FAANG the following year. Definitely an overpaid POS.

The best part: I worked with a lot of really great people and those last 2 months were definitely a highlight, even if it came from a shitty situation.

[red-iron-pine]

vacation was probably cheaper than a buncha payroll. easier to push that and leave folks in a happy mood.

[edent]

1. Yes. It sucks. It feels humiliating and stressful.

2. Yes. It gave me the kick up the arse that I needed to look for something outside my comfort zone.

3. No. Being fired may come with social stigma, but everyone knows that companies sometimes engage in untargetted bloodletting. There's no shame in that.

The hardest thing is the sudden brutality of it. You may not get a chance to say goodbye to people. It feels impersonal and you don't get a chance to defend yourself. Your ego is tied to your profession - as is your ability to provide.

Thankfully, I was part of a strong Trade Union. They were able to negotiate a very generous severance package, and they obliterated my non-compete. If you are at any risk at all of getting laid-off (and everyone is) then you should join your Union.

[gchamonlive]

Unions are definitely not perfect and the institution needs to mature a lot as to keep representing the worker class long term, but I think the fact that most big companies are strongly against them should be a good enough heuristic for you to know you should join them.

[prewett]

> The hardest thing is the sudden brutality of it. You may not get a chance to say goodbye to people.

I had something similar happen to me, and I realized that being unilaterally excluded from a social group is basically exile, which historically was one form of the death penalty [1].

[1] Socrates, for example, was supposed to choose exile, but chose poison to make a point.

[braza]

1. No. Not because I'm a quite special engineer (I'm between the average and median) but one thing that I developed was a decent situational awareness in terms of career management to know the early signs when something is going south and I decided to move first (last 3 experiences I escaped from a mass layoff in a Tech Mid-Cap company, another Scale-up that needed to do layoffs and all stock is underwater and a hostile takeover that ended up with a 65% layoff).

2. I became almost obsessed with company performance in almost all aspects to see early signs of something off. Another thing is that I worked on all of my weaknesses to be more employable (I am a SysAdmin by craft, but I navigate in SRE/DevOps/Operations nowadays).

3. At the time that I was fired some time ago, in my internal circles I was completely open about it, and most of the folks were super supportive. For new job opportunities, I would never place this reason because companies have this kind of stigma and consider you as "undesirable" or "leftover".

All those times I created some excuse like I needed to change cities due to family reasons, the company closed the operation in my city, I changed country, I was doing consulting, etc. This is something, in my experience, that you never open to potential employees.

First because of the stigma already said, second this transfers your leverage in terms of negotiation because the other side knows that you need the work and it incites the other side of the transaction to lowball you financially speaking; and during the job they put you in more pressure to deliver.

[op00to]

> 3. At the time that I was fired some time ago, in my internal circles I was completely open about it, and most of the folks were super supportive. For new job opportunities, I would never place this reason because companies have this kind of stigma and consider you as "undesirable" or "leftover".

I interview people who were laid off all the time. I don't care at all about why they left their last job as long as it wasn't for being a creep or an asshole.

[ethbr1]

Re:2

Corporate finances are complex, but not a mystery at their base.

If you work in a public company, join your earnings calls and listen to the presentations, questions, and answers.

Nobody likes surprises -- CxOs, investors, analysts -- so you'll be amazed how often RIFs are telegraphed to anyone who's paying attention.

[ezedv]

I've experienced a layoff not related to performance, and it was definitely challenging. The job search was tough due to the stigma around being unemployed, but networking and honing my skills helped me bounce back. It's crucial to remember that layoffs can happen to anyone and don't define our worth. Sharing experiences and supporting each other can reduce the stigma and make recovery smoother.

In case someone is looking for open positions: https://www.ratherlabs.com/open-positions

[yardie]

1. Layoff are rarely performance related. There is too much paperwork involved with performance related firings and layoffs happen so fast and so wide it's usually done by lottery. You could be laid off for performance but no one is going to give you an honest answer either way. They still suck and you'll feel like you personally did something wrong. In the overall scheme of labor relations, it's not you it's federal law.

2. Yeah, so it made it a lot easier to network. I didn't have to schedule interviews clandestinely late at night, on lunch breaks, take time off. I could be out front about my objectives and be fully in charge of my career without worrying about blowback. 2 weeks of interview, 2 weeks of reference and background checks. I was collecting my next paycheck before unemployment even finished processing, LOL.

3. Layoffs aren't personal. They definitely can drive morale down for those that remain. And as soon as you have a steady, new job guess who start reaching out to you for referrals?

I wasn't laid off during the 2000s dot bomb, but I quit to finish school. I was not laid off during the 2009 GFC. I was definitely laid off during COVID19, because of COVID. At no point did I think it was even about me. It just sucks and those feelings of inadequacy are real. While my colleagues were feeling sorry for me I sent an email to every business card I've collected through the network events. I had 3 job offers by the 2nd week. You grow, get older, learn from your experience.

[Aloha]

I work at a company where performing a RIF is the most common way to get rid of people who are not performing at their expected level of effectiveness - the company does not have any meaningful process internally to perform performance reviews under normal circumstances, but its 'known' even by non-management types, who is effective and efficient at their job, and who is not.

[bmj]

There is too much paperwork involved with performance related firings and layoffs happen so fast and so wide it's usually done by lottery.

Can confirm this. My employer dropped about 10% of staff in order to back fill those positions with contractors from low-cost centers (India, Hungary, Costa Rica). Managers were not consulted in the decisions, and simply told they were losing employees $x, $y, and $z.

[broast]

I've worked at the same company for all 10 years of my career. The company has been through a few rounds of major layoffs that I've somehow survived. It has affected me in that, for one, I'm always afraid that if I ever stop being "indispensable" to whatever on-going projects that I'll be let go. For now instead I've been promoted to manager. The other way it affects me is it increases the work and responsibilities for those who stay on. We're constantly scrambling and understaffed so we always wish we had those people back. We have thin teams to support a giant product that a larger team of ex-employees wrote, while having to on-board the next round of cheap resources.

[otikik]

> I'm always afraid that if I ever stop being "indispensable"

> I've been promoted to manager

So, first problem is solved then :)

(I'm a manager as well)

[tomrod]

1. Yes. I let my employer know that I would be going to graduate school and offered to continue employment part-time in the field in the area. They asked me to wait a week for them to plan. I was laid off 4 days later. Two days before layoff, they gave what I felt was an unjustified middling performance review due to two punctuation errors from a pre-existing template on a report sent to a client.

2. I would have preferred the stability and benefits the job offered, but life happens and I moved on. I was reasonably angry at the employer for about six years after. I've moved past it now. I threw myself into graduate school work and getting supplemental income for my small family.

3. No. Any employer who reads personal performance or morality into a candidate's layoff isn't worth the time or effort to engage.

[STLCajun]

1) I've been laid off once. I got caught up in the massive layoffs during the MCI/Worldcom fall back in 2002. It was completely not performance related, and my entire division was let go at the same time.

2) The layoff itself was not a blemish, as far as I knew. The big issue was the simultaneous dotCom bubble burst. There was a huge glut of guys like me looking for work, and the jobs at the time just weren't there. What was worse, I was going from making a pretty high salary to applying for jobs at Blockbuster just to try and make ends meet. No one wanted to hire me because they knew it was just a temporary thing and I'll probably leave at my first opportunity.

3) No social stigmas beyond what I mentioned above. It was a long recovery though. I couldn't find anything for almost 2 years until some friends started their own company and brought me on board. I was only making about half of what I'd made previously, but I was happy to be working.

This was definitely the lowest point of my life. Couch crashing with friends and living in my mother-in-law's basement. Before this, I was turning down offers because I liked my job. This event severely humbled me, and now I'm absolutely terrified any time I see that my job might be in danger.

[nicolas_]

1. Yes, 3 times in the past five years and a half which coincide with my move to Canada (I’m now a citizen as of last week)

- Small startup, no more money

- Covid

- Company tried to grow too fast

2. I feel like it’s a call from the universe to focus on what I really want. At the same time, not having the stability and the experience and growth from a job where I stayed long term is, I think, affecting my resume negatively versus someone who stayed 5 years at one company and was able to grow and have a bigger impact.

3. I was really ashamed the first time and didn’t even ask for Employment Insurance as I didn’t even know I was eligible. I didn’t ask for help and it was a big mistake. This time I’m doing it differently, asking for help, introductions, referrals. It’s nerve wracking though. Having to reinvent yourself that often and applying to hundreds of jobs isn’t fun at all. I’m now applying every morning and take the afternoon to focus on my hobbies or everything else that’s good for my mental health. At least it forced me to understand that I’m not my job and my worth is not dictated by my job or my employer. I also stopped reading news/reddit because of the negativity around the current market. I know it won’t be easy but I don’t want to be reminded about it every day.

[michaelcampbell]

Yes, officially. It was part of a ~4.5% to 5% total RIF, I wasn't happy, not doing my best work, one of "the remote guys" that was GIVEN to another group with an in-office culture and we just didn't gel.

So they didn't SAY it was performance related, (I've actually called and am listed in their system as "eligible for rehire", they say), but I know it was.

The time between "the call" and end date was long enough that I had my next job lined up and basically took off Wed-Fri of my last week before my next job started. Truth be told I actually accepted the offer of $nextjob before $laidoffjob's "the call" came. I knew it was coming, so _officially_ I can say I never looked for a new job as a result of layoff given the timing.

So to #3, yes and no. It hurt. It still hurts. It's a gut punch, so it's something I'll just have to live with. It gets better, but to date it hasn't gone away.

[erellsworth]

1. I've lost a job because the parent company merged with another company and started eliminating "redundant" positions. I've lost a job because of private equity shenanigans. I've been laid off a few times because of budget cuts when the economy was in the toilet. I've lost many jobs over the years and not once was it because of anything I could control.

2. Our culture is constantly telling you that if you can't find a job it's due to some kind of character defect. After a while you start to internalize that notion and it's super depressing. Being depressed and desperate for a job just makes the job hunt that much harder. Employers always want an explanation for the "gaps" in your employment history and "just trying to survive" is not an acceptable answer.

3. See #2

[dirtybirdnj]

> Our culture is constantly telling you that if you can't find a job it's due to some kind of character defect.

You hit the nail on the head, its a combination of survivorship bias and just-world fallacy that cause people to hand-wave away the problems. Either out of "it doesn't happen to me" or "I've never seen it happen before" its really hard to reason with someone who doesn't see the thing you're complaining about to be a legitimate concern.

Compassion is the only answer. First self compassion, and then compassion for others in the world. Even the ones who do us dirty. Compassion and understanding can't replace burned bridges but it can build new ones. I'm still working on this.

[fma]

1) My company wanted to downsize and asked for volunteers. I volunteered for a nice package of almost 12 months of pay. They've forcefully terminated 1000+ this year in software, maybe more to go.

2) This gave me a chance to take a sabbatical and gives me a chance to leave IT. Been in the industry for 15 years. The pay is good but IMHO isn't fulfilling. Potentially doing something more tangible. Honestly I could even 'retire' if I want. I'm only 40 but I can work with my wife on her business, take some part time job for benefits...or anything else besides a 40+ hour grind sitting behind a monitor.

3) I haven't told many people I've left my job. My parents still think I work. This makes it a little hard to enjoy my time off, actually as I feel a little bit of guilt.

[jstx1]

With a high enough rate of layoffs, everyone is affected, even the people who kept their jobs - everyone has lower job mobility and less negotiating power than they’ve had at any point in the past 10+ years.

[germanbonin19]

Yes, literally last friday. Signed up for a new job mid august, and last week, boom, they did lay off half the company. I just can't stand the fact that it isn't something you start thinking from one day to another, and you can take approaches to prevent this (still hire people 1 month before the entire layoff cof cof).

Idk, I'm just in the middle of f around and find out to see if its really a thing, most of the response from people seem to not care about. But the feeling itself its kind of weird for being a first timer for me!.

[thisisit]

My last company did a speed run from "we need to build competency in house" to "internal employees are costly and outsourcing will help us reduce cost" in just 3 years.

I was called to a meeting room and told my role was redundant. The HR somehow felt that I would break down into tears. I was calm. He asked if I already had another job offer. I didn't and I had to tell him that breaking down wasn't going to help either of us in the discussion.

To make matters worse this happened just as COVID news started hitting the waves. That is starting of Feb 2020. Most of the companies had stopped interviews. And then in March shutdowns started. I was out of job between a raging pandemic. No idea when things would open back up. And everyone saying the economy was done and there might not be a job even if things started to open up.

2 months later, in May - at the height of the pandemic - I got an opportunity but came at a cost. Because I was so afraid of not having job - I accepted a 20% pay cut.

But 3 years later things have turned out positively. I am making more than 2020 level and got a promotion into middle management and now pushing higher.

There is a social stigma of being "laid off" or rather "fired". Not many people appreciate that companies can lay off people for things unrelated to performance or other issues. Some are understanding if the lay off hits the news cycle. But if you are working with a smaller company that never happens.

[amerkhalid]

Early in my career, I was laid off during offshore outsourcing mania. Initially, they hired one of consulting company to handle oncall after work hours. We loved it, spent months training our replacements without knowing. We also documented a lot of our tribal knowledge during this time.

Then one day they brought everyone in a big presentation hall and fired everyone. We got 3 months advance notice and then minimum of 2 months of salary as a severance. Ironically, they didn't use the afterhours consulting company. Instead, they hired another offshore consulting company for the actual dev work. I guess they were spreading their risk.

We were ordered to train our replacements in our respective areas. That was the most painful part. The original offshore team also felt betrayed, I guess, and there was very hostile environment.

But three months of advance notice was very nice. Some of us got jobs during those 3 months, and started making double salaries. Managers were also part of layoff, so they didn't care. Executives were absentee mostly and they possibly didn't care either.

I needed an excuse for a long vacation, so I didn't look for work immediately. Instead I enjoyed traveling, my hobbies and side projects.

2. No. Other than that it happened during GFC, I don't think it impacted my career. I have gotten multiple simultaneous job offers since then.

3. No, don't think anyone cares.

[curiousllama]

1 Yes

2 Yes, positively. I found a better job within a few months

3 Absolutely not. Imo, getting laid off doesn't come with a big social stigma. Professionally - yea, I sugarcoated it for recruiters. But everybody else treated it like I broke my leg: an unfortunate, mostly random occurrence, after which I may need some help.

Edit to add, for context: I got laid off from a pivoting startup in a hot market. I suspect my experience would've been different if I was hit in the layoffs over the past year.

[vladvasiliu]

1. I have been laid off during the probation period (3 months in France). A new CEO was brought in roughly at the same time I was, and he was there to rescue a company that was apparently having difficulties (I only learned about this when I got laid off). All the people on probation period would be let go. I've learned later whole departments had been shut down. Last I heard, the company was still functioning, albeit with a reduced portfolio.

2. Yes, but in a very positive way. They were actually supportive and didn't kick me out the same day (though they could have, since it was the probation period). They said they'd keep me on board while I looked for a new job, but no longer than the maximum term of probation, which is 6 months. The HR lady set me up with a headhunter they used, and he brought me two very interesting positions, better paid than the one I was leaving. In the end, I went with a different one, even better paid, which still is my current position many years later.

3. Never exactly felt any stigma, probably because of what seem like quite unusual circumstances.

[watters]

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Biggest challenge I've seen is with stalled advancement, particularly for people with 10+ years of experience.

That said, those impacts are less severe (for ppl like me) these days as recent layoffs are more broadly recognized as resulting from executive and management failures.

That said, the general lack of a useful social safety net in the US can easily lead to chaos for US-based employees who are laid off.

[dudul]

Can you expand on your last point? AFAIK, whe you're part of layoffs you get unemployment benefits.

[mr_tristan]

Yep, laid off in the aftermath of the 2000 crash. Not immediately but the company didn’t get funding and cut almost everyone.

It hit me hard at first, but I was very young, just out of college, and adjusted quickly. The market was dead for a while, and I ended up being rehired after 6 months to sweeten the startup right before acquisition (for pennies on the dollar - this startup was seen as a success because it didn’t just fold).

The biggest aftermath is the mental shock of losing employment. I definitely got depressed due to the uncertainty of, well, everything. And when there’s a general glut of people searching, even being contacted by a prospective employer turns into a gamble. There’s a hopelessness that can set in that takes its toll.

I haven’t found much of a stigma from it, socially or professionally. There’s a pretty decent chunk of people who have been unemployed at some point due to a layoff.