Real Estate. So many quirky things are viable when there's cheaper rent, cheap buying opportunities, or underutilized space. If I could buy space for $150/sq ft, I might have some extra cash, like the idea of investing in real estate, and like the idea of having a cool community hackerspace. If it's going to cost me $1,000/sq ft, I'm barely going to be able to afford the space I want to live in. If a group of us can rent at cheap prices we're saving money on our housing and paying for a shared second space doesn't cost that much.
Over the past 15 years or so, property prices have soared in so many cities. It really makes it hard to afford space for quirky things. There are certainly plenty of examples of ones that still exist and enough determination and you can still make things happen, but I think the rising cost of real estate is putting a damper on things like this.
Community spaces are always on the move. So I don't think it's rent so much as the core members not keeping up with the inevitable need to move on.
One I used to attend now gets space from a University http://hackerspace-adelaide.org.au/
There are lots of community spaces if people can find and network with them. But it takes work and dedication. Money is nearly always a second.
The first hack group I fell in with (2600) met in a restaurant, and it worked and evolved into other groups including a hackerspace.
So now that commercial real estate is being underutilized due to work from home does that mean the hackerspaces and artist collectives will return due to cheap real estate prices?
Most hackerspaces I've been a part of couldn't or barely could afford their rent. Memberships were already too expensive, and they were constantly just getting squeezed between membership revenue and hard costs. Ultimately it doesn't add up.
I think a lot of what used to happen at makerspaces has transitioned to libraries. Lots of libraries have 3d printers, et. Now, are free, and don't have the problem with affording space.
From my knowledge of and participation in hacker spaces - I would say this is it. My understanding is hackerspaces like the L0pht were not paying exorbitant real estate prices, and had a core of founders making decent enough money to pay for the place. On the other hand, some hacker spaces start out very ambitiously with a large space in the center of an expensive city, without as much of dedicated, close, core team to sustain it, and those did less well. Also - when you have a small core team and expenses are too high, it causes friction and stress in the core team, and people want to participate less.
Hackerdojo isn't a Hackerspace in the early 2010's meaning of the word anymore. They converted to a more startup incubator kind of place (and so I stopped going).
From their website, looks like they're doing quite well!
(for those who remember a previous incarnation of the space, with my partner and some friends we painted the 2 Dinos mural)
Hacker Dojo, as mentioned elsewhere, pivoted to something sort of like WeWork. $150/month. Mostly people slaving away at laptops, pre-COVID.
Maker Nexus seems from their web site to be doing OK. Pre-COVID, they were mostly sewing and kids classes, but now they seem to have more heavy metal tools. $150/month.
Humanmade, in SF, has government support, and is more oriented to training for trades. They ended up with much of TechShop's equipment. $250/month.
There's also the woke shop, Double Union.
What killed TechShop was that the gym model doesn't work for maker spaces. Gyms work because people pay but don't show up that much. Maker spaces get people whose day job is to be there making stuff.
The makerspace I am a member of(Freeside Atlanta) manages to survive by the skin of its teeth by moving to a new and bigger space right before the pandemic shutdown and seem to be growing ever since.
https://circuitlaunch.com/ (working hard to brand away from /makerspace/ or /hackerspace/, but serving a similar audience and purpose, in a professional/entrepreneur/business-building direction).
Saw this with a bunch of niche things here in LA. There was this cool welding non-professional welding space that closed down due to covid. I hope something replaces it soon
Noisebridge came pretty close to going under too. At one point the landlord was asking for an increase in rent to something like 20k/mo before backing down.
Maybe you'll get as many answers as there are hackers here but from my own perspective it seems it went the same way as all other communities. Internal strife, odd personalities, personal differences tore them apart slowly.
It's not all bad. In my city it seems the hacker spaces organized by individuals were replaced by maker spaces funded and organized by the city. At least two that I know of, that are now basically free co-working spaces with 3D printers, meeting rooms, free wifi and such.
One is run by the agency that ran the ccTLD back in the early 2000s, called Goto10 in Malmö and Stockholm. Very nice space to work at.
The other is run by the city of Malmö called Stapeln and is in a basement.
Besides those I know of at least two hacker spaces run by individuals that were still going last I checked.
Many undergraduate-focused higher ed institutions have copied the makerspace/hackerspace model, primarily as an amenity for students. These are, in some cases, clopen to the public (sic). Public libraries have also copied the model.
Reviewing the data, AFAICT:
1. The hackerspace-as-business model largely didn't work.
2. The community-run 501(c)3 model remains viable in mid-sized cities.
3. Organizations like hacker spaces have a really hard time of it in larger cities, mostly because of rent.
4. In places that are too rural or too expensive to support hackerspaces, other institutions often provide partial solutions which are not hackerspaces per se but offer similar amenities.
Given that the primary barrier seems to be real estate, I am honestly mildly surprised that major donor hasn't tried to seed a legacy by copying the Carnegie Library formula but for hackerspaces. Seems like a much better legacy-building project than adding an extra half bajillion to a university endowment or starting yet another charter school experiment.
- TechShop and it's fall - I remember one person arguing hackerspaces may be better run as a nonprofit model.
- The rise of small-scale maker capabilities within public institutions like libraries. I considered signing up for a maker space last year and it made more sense to pay for a second library that happened to have a good maker lab.
- The rise of cheaper or more accessible prototype manufacturing (e.g. pcbway , sendcutsend, etc.).
Yeah, my local library has a pretty decent makerspace in its basement, at least if you're making smaller things. These are the machines that are currently there:
* Prusa 3D Printer
* Hic Top CR-10 3D Printer
* Ender-3 S1 Pro 3D Printer
* Brother ScanNCut
* Silhouette CAMEO
* Silhouette Vinyl Cutter
* EverSewn Sparrow X2 Embroidery Machine
* Brother PE900 Embroidery Machine
* Carvey CNC Desktop Fabricator
* Glowforge Laser Cutter
* Sawgrass Sublimation Printer
It also has a lot of audio recording equipment with soundbooths, and a bunch of lighting and photography/video equipment.
Yeap. Might be better not to have the expense and expectations of a brick and mortar that get in the way of associations of like minds. Dinner gatherings once a month and larger fairs once a year would probably suffice.
If municipality governments had any common sense, they would find ways to manage the risks and benefits of opening fix-it and make community centers.
Aside from community (which is incredible important), Hackerspaces are a method of tool-sharing. In the last decade, many of the popular tools that used to live exclusively at a Hackerspace can be now be found in schools, libraries, and homes: 3D Printers, lasercutters, electronics toolkits, etc. And 3 years of pandemic isolation meant that people weren't able to show up anyway.
One of my favorite spaces (though distant from where I live) - Metrix Create:Space - shut down down in 2018 in part because people didn't have as much of a reason to show up [1]
A large local hackerspace in my city simply went broke over covid. Real estate and operating costs got more expensive and the business model couldn’t keep up. Unfortunately just piling a bit of cash between your friends can no longer get you a dingy commercial space to hang out.
Hackerspaces require ongoing work and support. They aren't great businesses, but are great community spaces. To that end, you need an ongoing commitment of people to provide their time, resources, and effort.
We are extremely lucky in Ballarat that we have such a group of committed members, as well as very generous sponsorship. We've paid that back through ongoing community involvement and releasing many free resources, but we are lucky to be in that position.
Australia in general seems to have decent Hackerspaces in all the major cities, sometimes multiple, as well as good growing support from the Library network with their own makerspaces (including regular workshops for 3D printing etc).
They kind of came to be when the Bush financial meltdown happend. Unemployment was getting high in the late 00's. People were trying to develop new skills or build cottage industries. It feels like there is less of a hustle with all that now.
Plus makerspaces were just difficult to make viable and really you are probably better off spending that time on any other endeavor.
A group of us out here tried starting one in West Michigan and it sputtered along for a while. Financials and interest were never able to balance out. The Geek Group out here did a little "better" but the owners and volunteers there basically burned themselves out constantly. Then the founder got nailed for bitcoin crimes and that was the end.
At my university, they already had the hackerspace locked down under all sorts of training sessions that needed to be scheduled and attended to be allowed access, then when covid came around they started by canceling all trainings, then eventually shut the space down entirely citing covid.
Now that things have reopened they simply never brought it back.
The obstacle to living in a remote area is being in the radius of major medical and groceries.
I'm looking for a 3000+ sq ft single-story house and workshop on cheap land without natural hazards within 15-20 minutes of somewhere with a Trader Joe's.
What do you mean what happened? "Most are gone"? Do we live in different realities or just different places?
Every major European city I visit has its own, or multiple, nice hackerspaces. Often smaller cities as well. Most/many of them are coming out of the pandemic more enthusiastically than before.
Just the city I live in (Munich) has at least three community-oriented hackerspaces/makerspaces, and a bunch more 'open workshops' and commercial spots.
I've been a paid member of 3 hacker spaces and a couple of niche creative communities over 20 years or so. There was a time when people were actually interested in experimenting, tinkering, and holding workshops. I think that has been replaced by hustle culture. I saw a lot of shops turn into laser cutter and C & C focussed fabrication shops. People were using the equipment to run under the table sign shops and Etsy production lines. They would book the equipment for 6-8 hour blocks and pay a premium. Indie users could never get a slot and learners were even more frustrated. There was rarely a density of users in there at the same time because everything was booked. The actual community just faded away. The infrastructure of shared resource communities got exploited by people who are purely motivated by money.
Another challenge is governance. Managing a volunteer organisation can be tricky, especially if a few get paid for various things. Passionate people burn out and leave. That leaves a management vacuum that is easily exploited by people with an agenda. I watched one shop get completely taken over by political issues and the original mission was left behind for identity focus. It was a real bummer.
The only ones that seem to survive have a strong professional management core and strict monetary oversight.
It seems like most people have given up on the idea of community, sharing, and collective action, and prefer to take pills or other substances against the resulting depression/anxiety/loneliness.
Many comments here confirm this attitude, where what they see in spaces is reduced to "shared access to tools". Nobody wants to put in the effort just to have the majority be leeches.
Speaking only for myself, it's very hard to find people who treat community, sharing, and collective action as things to engage with regularly rather than as a way to get access to tools for cheap. It can be exceptionally stressful and anxiety-inducing to manage shared resources under those conditions.
It should not be a surprise that some people prefer to not deal with the idea of hackerspace-as-community and seek their community elsewhere.
> It seems like most people have given up on the idea of community, sharing, and collective action, and prefer to take pills or other substances against the resulting depression/anxiety/loneliness.
I spent Saturday, Sunday, and part of Friday tabling at Maker Faire for Hacker/Maker-spaces[1] and for Noisebridge[2]. With some other folks who tabled all of last weekend too.
There are many! Also, more importantly, other institutions have taken up ideas from them and offer tools and services to address the same needs. Libraries and colleges in many communities host makerspace tools, tool libraries
The maker movement has taken off, Etsy, home crafting, and sharing and selling projects at all varient of levels of polish,
Finding like-minded individuals, for all manner of interests, is possible through meetups.
I suppose, they've unbundled. I would say: look closer, they're maybe more present than ever, but in parts, and adapted in ways that best complement the psychological demographics of the places they serve.
Humans are only so charitable. At some point the cost of fixing what is broken in a hacker space is contrasted against a car repair (or something) and the hacker space looses.
This is compounded by the fact that the people who can responsibly use a hacker space usually own the tools or can get them cheap. Those who really want the hacker space have no clue that their incorrect use of the tool will destroy it.
I am amazed that any publicly available hacker spaces survived the first week.
I ran a hacker space in a school at my last employer. They never had a clue how much time and money went into the hacker space. When I left they asked if I wanted the stuff. They could not understand that two weeks after I left it was all broken, and had no value.
William Osman and Allen Pan commented on it in a recent-ish podcast, Allen used to run a space.
Basically, the politics of the situation is impossible. Maintaining a space like that costs an incredible amount of money and time. You'd hope that the community could pitch in together, but you always end up with a single person being the primary patron, spending their own time and money, while others abuse the space and the machines for themselves.
The only spaces that seem to have survived are ones that gets large grants from some institution like a university or local government, and therefore can be run like a business, with leadership and staffing.
denhac is alive and well! We had our 15th anniversary party earlier this month and recently crossed 350 members. We're entirely volunteer run with no paid employees.
I currently serve as vice-chair of the board. I joined right before COVID and my focus has been helping get policies and processes in place to continue to help us scale. We've seen pretty rapid growth post COVID and are seeing ~10 new members a month.
Happy to answer any questions (when I wake up).
Be sure to stop and say hi If you're ever in Denver, CO!
[+] [-] mdasen|2 years ago|reply
Over the past 15 years or so, property prices have soared in so many cities. It really makes it hard to afford space for quirky things. There are certainly plenty of examples of ones that still exist and enough determination and you can still make things happen, but I think the rising cost of real estate is putting a damper on things like this.
[+] [-] getwiththeprog|2 years ago|reply
The first hack group I fell in with (2600) met in a restaurant, and it worked and evolved into other groups including a hackerspace.
[+] [-] rapjr9|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] mistrial9|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] iancmceachern|2 years ago|reply
Most hackerspaces I've been a part of couldn't or barely could afford their rent. Memberships were already too expensive, and they were constantly just getting squeezed between membership revenue and hard costs. Ultimately it doesn't add up.
I think a lot of what used to happen at makerspaces has transitioned to libraries. Lots of libraries have 3d printers, et. Now, are free, and don't have the problem with affording space.
[+] [-] StopTheWorld|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dsr_|2 years ago|reply
It lagged behind the library of the next town over, but is now comparable.
[+] [-] threatofrain|2 years ago|reply
https://hackerdojo.org/
https://makernexus.org/
https://sudoroom.org/
https://noisebridge.net/
[+] [-] AceJohnny2|2 years ago|reply
From their website, looks like they're doing quite well!
(for those who remember a previous incarnation of the space, with my partner and some friends we painted the 2 Dinos mural)
[+] [-] Animats|2 years ago|reply
Hacker Dojo, as mentioned elsewhere, pivoted to something sort of like WeWork. $150/month. Mostly people slaving away at laptops, pre-COVID.
Maker Nexus seems from their web site to be doing OK. Pre-COVID, they were mostly sewing and kids classes, but now they seem to have more heavy metal tools. $150/month.
Humanmade, in SF, has government support, and is more oriented to training for trades. They ended up with much of TechShop's equipment. $250/month.
There's also the woke shop, Double Union.
What killed TechShop was that the gym model doesn't work for maker spaces. Gyms work because people pay but don't show up that much. Maker spaces get people whose day job is to be there making stuff.
[+] [-] kiba|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mcint|2 years ago|reply
https://circuitlaunch.com/ (working hard to brand away from /makerspace/ or /hackerspace/, but serving a similar audience and purpose, in a professional/entrepreneur/business-building direction).
[+] [-] xeromal|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] AlotOfReading|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] INTPenis|2 years ago|reply
It's not all bad. In my city it seems the hacker spaces organized by individuals were replaced by maker spaces funded and organized by the city. At least two that I know of, that are now basically free co-working spaces with 3D printers, meeting rooms, free wifi and such.
One is run by the agency that ran the ccTLD back in the early 2000s, called Goto10 in Malmö and Stockholm. Very nice space to work at.
The other is run by the city of Malmö called Stapeln and is in a basement.
Besides those I know of at least two hacker spaces run by individuals that were still going last I checked.
The pandemic hit them pretty hard of course.
[+] [-] gotts|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nrfulton|2 years ago|reply
St. Louis: https://archreactor.org/
Pittsburgh: https://hackpgh.org/
Boston (albeit bummed they left their Somverville location): https://www.artisansasylum.com/
Many undergraduate-focused higher ed institutions have copied the makerspace/hackerspace model, primarily as an amenity for students. These are, in some cases, clopen to the public (sic). Public libraries have also copied the model.
Reviewing the data, AFAICT:
1. The hackerspace-as-business model largely didn't work.
2. The community-run 501(c)3 model remains viable in mid-sized cities.
3. Organizations like hacker spaces have a really hard time of it in larger cities, mostly because of rent.
4. In places that are too rural or too expensive to support hackerspaces, other institutions often provide partial solutions which are not hackerspaces per se but offer similar amenities.
Given that the primary barrier seems to be real estate, I am honestly mildly surprised that major donor hasn't tried to seed a legacy by copying the Carnegie Library formula but for hackerspaces. Seems like a much better legacy-building project than adding an extra half bajillion to a university endowment or starting yet another charter school experiment.
[+] [-] seltzered_|2 years ago|reply
- TechShop and it's fall - I remember one person arguing hackerspaces may be better run as a nonprofit model.
- The rise of small-scale maker capabilities within public institutions like libraries. I considered signing up for a maker space last year and it made more sense to pay for a second library that happened to have a good maker lab.
- The rise of cheaper or more accessible prototype manufacturing (e.g. pcbway , sendcutsend, etc.).
- The other threads trying to save spaces, like this one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32245086 (2022)
[+] [-] cableshaft|2 years ago|reply
* Prusa 3D Printer
* Hic Top CR-10 3D Printer
* Ender-3 S1 Pro 3D Printer
* Brother ScanNCut
* Silhouette CAMEO
* Silhouette Vinyl Cutter
* EverSewn Sparrow X2 Embroidery Machine
* Brother PE900 Embroidery Machine
* Carvey CNC Desktop Fabricator
* Glowforge Laser Cutter
* Sawgrass Sublimation Printer
It also has a lot of audio recording equipment with soundbooths, and a bunch of lighting and photography/video equipment.
[+] [-] cvccvroomvroom|2 years ago|reply
If municipality governments had any common sense, they would find ways to manage the risks and benefits of opening fix-it and make community centers.
[+] [-] sircastor|2 years ago|reply
One of my favorite spaces (though distant from where I live) - Metrix Create:Space - shut down down in 2018 in part because people didn't have as much of a reason to show up [1]
[1] https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2018/08/tech-junkies-and-...
[+] [-] clemailacct1|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drusepth|2 years ago|reply
The two big reasons I and my friends don't run them anymore: rent costs and COVID.
[+] [-] __turbobrew__|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rlayton2|2 years ago|reply
Hackerspaces require ongoing work and support. They aren't great businesses, but are great community spaces. To that end, you need an ongoing commitment of people to provide their time, resources, and effort.
We are extremely lucky in Ballarat that we have such a group of committed members, as well as very generous sponsorship. We've paid that back through ongoing community involvement and releasing many free resources, but we are lucky to be in that position.
[+] [-] sen|2 years ago|reply
Australia in general seems to have decent Hackerspaces in all the major cities, sometimes multiple, as well as good growing support from the Library network with their own makerspaces (including regular workshops for 3D printing etc).
[+] [-] karmicthreat|2 years ago|reply
Plus makerspaces were just difficult to make viable and really you are probably better off spending that time on any other endeavor.
A group of us out here tried starting one in West Michigan and it sputtered along for a while. Financials and interest were never able to balance out. The Geek Group out here did a little "better" but the owners and volunteers there basically burned themselves out constantly. Then the founder got nailed for bitcoin crimes and that was the end.
[+] [-] sircastor|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mistrial9|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dotnet00|2 years ago|reply
Now that things have reopened they simply never brought it back.
[+] [-] astrange|2 years ago|reply
I feel like I read a story about running one in the Bay that was just about having to deal with crustpunks and people having sex in the machine rooms.
Although I think libraries have equipment like 3D printers these days.
[+] [-] cvccvroomvroom|2 years ago|reply
I'm looking for a 3000+ sq ft single-story house and workshop on cheap land without natural hazards within 15-20 minutes of somewhere with a Trader Joe's.
[+] [-] solarkraft|2 years ago|reply
Every major European city I visit has its own, or multiple, nice hackerspaces. Often smaller cities as well. Most/many of them are coming out of the pandemic more enthusiastically than before.
[+] [-] q3k|2 years ago|reply
Just the city I live in (Munich) has at least three community-oriented hackerspaces/makerspaces, and a bunch more 'open workshops' and commercial spots.
Here's a list of _just_ Chaos Computer Club chapters around Germany: https://www.ccc.de/de/club/erfas
[+] [-] iancmceachern|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ogou|2 years ago|reply
Another challenge is governance. Managing a volunteer organisation can be tricky, especially if a few get paid for various things. Passionate people burn out and leave. That leaves a management vacuum that is easily exploited by people with an agenda. I watched one shop get completely taken over by political issues and the original mission was left behind for identity focus. It was a real bummer.
The only ones that seem to survive have a strong professional management core and strict monetary oversight.
[+] [-] rendx|2 years ago|reply
Many comments here confirm this attitude, where what they see in spaces is reduced to "shared access to tools". Nobody wants to put in the effort just to have the majority be leeches.
[+] [-] Kalium|2 years ago|reply
It should not be a surprise that some people prefer to not deal with the idea of hackerspace-as-community and seek their community elsewhere.
[+] [-] ShamelessC|2 years ago|reply
Oh, didn’t realize I was watching Fox & Friends.
[+] [-] mcint|2 years ago|reply
There are many! Also, more importantly, other institutions have taken up ideas from them and offer tools and services to address the same needs. Libraries and colleges in many communities host makerspace tools, tool libraries
The maker movement has taken off, Etsy, home crafting, and sharing and selling projects at all varient of levels of polish,
Finding like-minded individuals, for all manner of interests, is possible through meetups.
I suppose, they've unbundled. I would say: look closer, they're maybe more present than ever, but in parts, and adapted in ways that best complement the psychological demographics of the places they serve.
[1]: https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/List_of_Hacker_Spaces [2]: https://noisebridge.net/
[+] [-] RecycledEle|2 years ago|reply
Humans are only so charitable. At some point the cost of fixing what is broken in a hacker space is contrasted against a car repair (or something) and the hacker space looses.
This is compounded by the fact that the people who can responsibly use a hacker space usually own the tools or can get them cheap. Those who really want the hacker space have no clue that their incorrect use of the tool will destroy it.
I am amazed that any publicly available hacker spaces survived the first week.
I ran a hacker space in a school at my last employer. They never had a clue how much time and money went into the hacker space. When I left they asked if I wanted the stuff. They could not understand that two weeks after I left it was all broken, and had no value.
[+] [-] koromak|2 years ago|reply
Basically, the politics of the situation is impossible. Maintaining a space like that costs an incredible amount of money and time. You'd hope that the community could pitch in together, but you always end up with a single person being the primary patron, spending their own time and money, while others abuse the space and the machines for themselves.
The only spaces that seem to have survived are ones that gets large grants from some institution like a university or local government, and therefore can be run like a business, with leadership and staffing.
[+] [-] eddiezane|2 years ago|reply
I currently serve as vice-chair of the board. I joined right before COVID and my focus has been helping get policies and processes in place to continue to help us scale. We've seen pretty rapid growth post COVID and are seeing ~10 new members a month.
Happy to answer any questions (when I wake up).
Be sure to stop and say hi If you're ever in Denver, CO!
https://denhac.org/