Launch HN: Univerbal (YC W23) – Language learning with a conversational AI tutor

[Hadjimina]

Hi HN we’re David, Sam and Philipp and we’re building Univerbal (https://univerbal.app).

We’re an AI language learning app where you talk to your AI Tutor, just like you would with a human one. Here’s a short demo of what that looks like in an actual conversation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IukKGc00juY

We actually started as a Show HN over a year ago and the responses we got from the HN community led us to apply to YC and make an actual company out of a side project (original Show HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32993130). We were called Quazel which we have since realized is too hard to spell and only makes sense in German.

We started off as only offering open-ended conversations. While that is still at the core of what we do, we quickly realized that we need to solve a bigger problem for learners than simply giving them the option to hold a conversation with an AI. Tutoring is (usually) the highest quality of education you can get. The curriculum is based on your interests and needs, you move at your own pace and you get personalized feedback about your specific mistakes.

At the same time, the reality is that tutoring is prohibitively expensive for most people, let alone that it can be very time-consuming to find a tutor that you like and you have to work around their schedule. We want to fix these issues by providing an AI Language Tutor that’s available whenever you want and affordable to everyone.

Now the tricky thing about this, is that a human tutor (to no one’s surprise) actually does many things at the same time, which are very much not straightforward to approximate, even with AI. The interaction part of a tutor session is already the main interaction in Univerbal, through speaking and having the replies read out loud. The hard part intervenes when you try to replicate the progress tracking and tailoring of the curriculum.

These are things that tutors automatically do, and getting a system, even one that’s based on LLM to do something like that is very hard! Our current approach is based on “Skills” (e.g. I can introduce myself), that a user works towards. These are a measure of where the user currently stands and we use this progress in a feedback loop to come up with relevant and interesting next lessons for a learner.

I often get asked, “Ohh so is it like Duolingo?”. When I get that question, I smile, feel something inside me die and then say that, while Duolingo is a great language-learning app, we don’t really see them as our competition, rather we see online tutoring platforms (italki, verbling, cambly etc.) as the companies we’re “attacking”.

We already have a couple of success stories. One of which comes from an Australian user who’s living in Italy and has successfully prepared herself for her Italian B2 language exam by using Univerbal :). If you’d like to give it a try, you can try it without an account for free for 7 days (no credit card required). Afterwards, it’s about $10ish/month.

One thing I’d love to get HN’s opinion on is how much gamification you think we should add. On the one hand, we don’t want to become a “game” and a Tutor lesson is always a “hard” thing and kind of exhausting, but there is obviously some balance to be struck there. Thoughts?

David, Same and Philipp (me :) )

You can try it without an account at https://chat.univerbal.app

[bricee98]

I like the idea, but when I started practicing some Spanish, I noticed it gave me incorrect grammar advice (it claimed that the subjunctive form of “creer” is “creen” - it was right that the subjunctive was needed, but that would be “crean”). That makes me nervous to use it for a language that I know less well like Korean because I won’t be able to tell if the grammar feedback I’m getting is accurate.

If there’s a way to make it more robust on that front I could definitely see myself using it!

[Hadjimina]

We're using LLMs and good ol'ML. These systems are never going to be 100% accurate. Then again humans are also not 100% correct and we're working hard on ironing out the kinks like the one you just discovered.

[wolverine876]

This looks very interesting and I wish you guys the best. One suggestion - a nitpick usually that I wouldn't write, but because it's a language product, you want to give the right impression of your language skills:

In English, uni-, the prefix, means 'one'. For example, unidirectional doesn't mean 'all directions', it means 'one direction'. [0] The name of the app means something like 'one language' or 'one word'. Again, normally, who cares? But this is a language service and people need to perceive you as authorities on language whom they will trust. I read the name and thought, 'well maybe they are great programmers but they aren't using serious linguists'.

You might want omni-, such as Omniverbal, 'all words'; or ambi-, Ambiverbal, 'both words' (reflecting both languages, the learner's native language and the one they are being taught, and 'ambidextrous' - able to use both hands equally well). Both sound like fun words to me (but I'm not in marketing!).

[0] People sometimes think of uni- as all, I think because they think of the Universe and universal (from which I assume 'Univerbal' is derived). Perhaps another way of thinking of universe / universal is meaning 'the single complete thing' or 'the single thing containing everything'.

[gnrlst]

By that logic, "one language" is actually apt for an app like this, a la 1Password. I.e. one way to interpret is: the service democratizes access to languages so much that one language is all you need to start learning, or all languages are as accessible and as easy to learn as a single language.

[Kiro]

I strongly disagree. Univerbal is a much better name than Omniverbal/Ambiverbal.

[schoen]

To what extent do you encounter hallucinations of foreign-language grammar (or vocabulary)? It looks like one person here is complaining that the application has hallucinated a non-existent verb form in one context.

That would be my biggest fear about using a language model for foreign language study ... being taught something wrong or significantly unidiomatic (perhaps by example), and then having to unlearn it later on.

[tobymather123]

Hi guys, just tried this as an intermediate Chinese learner. Really love it overall. I have an IRL tutor as well and it's very interesting to compare. Happy to give feedback offline but high-level so far: 1. Adding pinyin for Chinese words when clicking would be great, and adding 'word' rather than character-only clickable dictionary, e.g. from Pleco. That's a Chinese specific issue 2. Harder, but when I say something wrong, pause, and re-state, if it could fix my answer with what I said and delete the wrong bit that would be insanely cool. As that's what a teacher hears, the self-correcting is a good sign

[Hadjimina]

Pinyin is already accessible if you click on the gear icon in the top right and enable "pronunciations". When you make a mistake you can also have a look at it, read the suggestion and the "correct it" by clicking on the correction button and repeating the correct version of it. That will make the error disappear.

I guess both of these issues are too hidden right now.

[captaincaveman]

Very much something I'm interested in.

The problem I have is it jumps straight in at a level that is too high for me, I literally can't answer the basic questions you start with. I need more basic introductions and foundations, perhaps this is only an app I can come too once I've studied to a certain level elsewhere?

[iandanforth]

I'll second this. Jumping straight into a conversation is also pretty stressful. You ask, "Have you practiced conversations before" but answering "Yes" doesn't mean I'm any good at them. I'd like to start with lessons not free form conversation.

Also, please for the love of god remove the 'streak' mechanic. There is nothing more demotivating than breaking a long streak and it's why I don't use Duolingo.

[kebsup]

I've built an MVP similar to this when GPTs came out, but somehow I just did not find it very appealing and I have the same experience with this one.

I wonder if it's the delay or just the bleak conversation with an AI. Might get to usable level for me once LLMs get faster and more fun. (Twitter model maybe? :D)

[keeptrying]

Great stuff. Spoken language learning is definitely the weak point of companeis like Duolingo and is the part of the language learning that most people want in the first place.

That lag in the video is still a bit too long.

If you can get that down to nearly instantaneous, I think this would have a lot of appeal.

[Hadjimina]

Especially for people who are already fluent in a language, the lag can be a tad too long. For beginners, it's more ok since you get a nice "break".

[NickC25]

Neat app.

How do you measure linguistic progress?

>* The hard part intervenes when you try to replicate the progress tracking and tailoring of the curriculum.*

Perhaps you guys just aren't thinking about it in the right way ;) Progress tracking and measurement is significantly easier from a conceptual standpoint than you might think. I'm not just bullshitting here - I've actually done it myself so I'm speaking from experience.

Disclaimer: I've learned several languages over the course of my life; also co-founded a language learning company that used AI to help track and measure improvement. Oddly enough, someone from HN hit me up yesterday to ask about it. The company shut down in 2022 and I'm in a completely different industry now (non tech) so am fully able to talk about what we learned, where we made mistakes and where we innovated.

Also, how do you teach things like slang, jargon, body language, hand movements, etc.. that are essential to effective social or professional communication in a given culture? Memorizing words, grammar and conjugations, etc... is great but is only a small part of the language learning journey.

[Hadjimina]

Absolutely agree on the slang stuff. Progress tracking is hard to do at scale in completely open-ended conversations since there are so many degrees of freedom within one conversation. If you have any tips and tricks, these would be much appreciated :)

[brylie]

It’s a great idea. I’m learning Finnish via the chat and noticed some issues.

- invitation email link is huge, does it need so much entropy

- the web application is borked on iOS (no audio recording, buttons don’t work)

- inline translation of my spoken Finnish just says “I’m unsure”

- despite knowing my name from the introduction, the app keeps translating my name as “grilli“

- after finishing the introductory lesson, I had to close and re-open the app for the next lesson to display

- it almost seems like the app is trying to translate my spoken input to English despite the conversation being in Finnish

Overall, I like the idea and will continue trying the app. I’m not convinced enough yet to pay 14€/month but will give it some more time.

I like that the app doesn’t focus on grammar or gamification. Grammar comes after learning a language since the initial learning is all about I/O and grammar mostly makes sense when you already “get it.” Gamification and other addiction mechanics are what put me off of Duolingo as it doesn’t feel good to be manipulated, even if for a “good reason.”

[Hadjimina]

Yeah, we should make it clearer that the web app is not supported on mobile devices. You can get the app and then it should work way smoother.

We currently have a bug in the homescreen which should be resolved in the next update and you should no longer need to close & re-open the app to get the next conversation.

If you get the yearly subscription it's only 10/m ;)

[SorrisoAmarelo]

Hi Philipp I think that the sooner Univerbal is on the market the better - it's marketable as it is. Just needs finishing touches to the layouts, buttons etc. Leave gamification and even the "progress tracking and tailoring of the curriculum" until you have a viable product and have made your presence known online.

You have a unique product to market i.e. interaction with a tutor, through speaking and having the replies read out loud + it’s available whenever you want, affordable to everyone. All the other language courses do not have this.

As for games, they can be a separate section, just as you already have buttons for Tutor, Translator, Hints etc.

I have contacted you on your website with a question about using Univerbal on a desktop.

Good luck!

[Hadjimina]

Yeah, that makes sense. Checking my inbox now!

[poulpy123]

That's interesting. I just ran a session in english to french starting by writing /replying in english then adding french words in the sentence at the end to see how it reacts.

- The errors in my english sentences, mainly word order and missing articles, are involuntary and the corrections are reasonably coherent with deepl and deepl writer (that also uses AI).

- the french words were correctly identified as french words, and the words were correctly translated, except maybe for one: "essentiellement" that I used in the meaning of "mainly" and was translated as "essentially" which I'm not sure it's the good choice

in any case I add it to my bookmarks

[Hadjimina]

Could not have hoped for more :)

[bmulholland]

The other company in this space I've been following is Speak (https://www.speak.com/). Aside from supported languages, how is Univerbal different?

[Hadjimina]

To add something here. We're really focusing on the tutoring aspect and fundamentally tailoring everything to the user's progress. Speak has a couple of ideas that are similar, however many more that are vastly different.

[Quazel_S]

When learning a new language, you should always go for Swiss guys. we have four national languages ;)

[tkgally]

It looks like you’ve made a good start. I tried it now with Japanese, and it worked pretty well. I wish you the best of success.

A few comments:

For Japanese, you might want to offer a choice for the amount of kanji to use in the written transcriptions that appear on the screen. Your current transcripts use the standard orthography, including kanji; some learners might like that, while others, especially beginners, will prefer that everything is in kana or romaji.

Other languages have similar aspects that should be customizable for learners: levels of politeness and formality, dialects and accents, grammatical gender, etc. It will be hard to do that with the current LLMs, but as better models become available it should become possible.

Multimodal LLMs that were trained on audio will be necessary for the tutors to respond to users’ pronunciation and intonation, produce natural backchanneling (an important part of conversation in Japanese and some other languages), etc. Perhaps such models will be available later this year.

Regarding gamification, how about offering choices to your users? Some learners will like gamification and benefit from it, while others don’t need it and will find it annoying.

It’s not clear from the free demo whether the characters one converses with are persistent or not. Especially for intermediate and advanced learners, it will be very valuable if your customers can chat with the same character repeatedly and that the character remembers the content of previous conversations and adapts accordingly. LLM context windows are getting longer, so that should be feasible. (Conversely, you will lose customers if they find that they are having the same conversations again and again or being encouraged to talk about things they aren't interested in.)

Also, you might consider setting up three-way conversations: two bots and the learner. One-on-one conversation practice can be tiring to the learner, and the learner doesn’t get a chance to observe how fluent speakers talk to each other. If the bots sometimes interacted with each other, the learner would both get a break and have a chance to learn by listening to the bots converse.

I have worked in language education for many years, and it seems that I was the first person to post a video to YouTube about using ChatGPT for language learning, on December 5, 2022 [1]. If you might find it useful to discuss ideas with me, feel free to get in touch. The URL of my website is in my profile.

[1] https://youtu.be/NVPHY3fYfmc

[sebnun]

Nice to see you here. I have been following your YouTube channel for a while, yes I think I discovered your channel via your videos about learning languages with ChatGPT (I'm building a language learning app as well so IIRC I was researching about it).

[Hadjimina]

Great point! The 3 person conversation is a super interesting point, since then the user can take more of a passive role and only occasionally intervene.

[pedalpete]

Pretty good first experience. I was unsure about the UX of the mic and couldn't quite tell when it was recording my voice, and when it was waiting for me to hit the button.

[emursebrian]

As the founder of a startup focused on language learning, I am really interested in how AI could improve the experience. At this stage, I think it is pretty far off from being useful as a conversation-partner/tutor replacement.

I agree with most of your assessment on tutoring, but replacing the human and emotional connection with a person isn't something that will be easily replicated (or at all!) with AI. I've been successful in hiring tutors that I've liked and tailoring the curriculum to meet my needs. You do need to put in the work, but coming prepared with a curriculum and what I want to learn in each lesson has been very effective for me. I've also tried to pick tutors with similar interests so that the conversation is interesting and engaging.

I prefer my tutoring sessions to be mostly conversation, but I usually reserve some time in the beginning of the session to ask questions about grammar or to review something I have written. I mostly used non-professional tutors who were doing the tutoring to make a little extra money on the side, so at times schedules would change and I would need to find a tutor. There was definitely some time lost in getting to know a new tutor and getting back into the flow of things.

Building a curriculum or taking detailed notes after and during a lesson aren't things every student is going to have the ability or desire to do. These are a couple of aspects we would like to improve with Emurse. Marry one-on-one tutoring with self-paced instruction. Track what was learned in your one-on-one tutoring sessions in the app and create continuity between sessions and different tutors.

[Hadjimina]

The personal relationship is a tricky bit and definitely plays a huge role in tutoring. There are already AI apps out there that try to mimic a human like relationship (e.g. https://replika.com/) but it's unclear how/if this type of relationship also works for tutoring.

[bravura]

Feedback on doing an assessment:

1) The assessment felt a little long.

2) There were many transcription errors which really was not a good experience. Are you using a quality transcription like insanely-fast-whisper?

2a) Why do I need to see my speech transcribed in real-time? It's distracting and leads to worse quality transcription.

3) It would be great to have accent coaching. From a transcription you should be able to figure out tone, inflection, and phonemes, and find the grossest errors to point out.

[Hadjimina]

Noted!

[apatil]

I've used chatgpt itself as a language tutor a bit but this is nicer. I like the inline suggestions that don't break the flow of conversation.

Portuguese speech to text is flaky. This may be partly attributable to my pronunciation, and chatgpt has the same issue.

I'd love to have a hands free mode that's suitable for use while doing chores or driving.

[apatil]

I have found myself legit using this instead of duolingo for the past couple of days, in spite of the speech to text issues. It feels like a better way to learn. The inline suggestions, in particular, seem like they will help me quickly move through bad habits and mistakes in order of severity.

The tutor review at the end of the lesson doesn't feel as useful currently; its content isn't particularly actionable. Maybe if it gave me a couple of exercises or something?

[Quazel_S]

You can actually set the chat settings to automatic recording and even decide after how many seconds of not saying anything, the message should be automatically sent. Just check out the chat settings on the top right ;)

[ed_db]

Hey, just so you know, it seems like it's possible to get stuck during the onboarding journey (No option but to refresh the page)

I tried the app using the 'no account' option. At the end of the exercise, it asked me to sign up to see my results. Clicking on 'sign up', I filled in my details only to find out that the email apparently already is in use (clearly, I've forgotten signing up). It recommends I should try logging in instead. However, there is no way for the user to log in at this point without losing the test task and totally restarting the journey.

https://imgur.com/a/zrzhMU6

Please consider adding a way out, with either a close dialogue option or a path to login/forgotten password flow

[Tistron]

I am curious to try it, but I can't get it to work (trying the free web one in chrome on macOS. The console is full of errors, a lot of them this:

    @firebase/app-check: FirebaseError: AppCheck: ReCAPTCHA error. (appCheck/recaptcha-error)

and then also this:

    Access to fetch at 'https://europe-west1-nextjs-yak.cloudfunctions.net/updateProficiency' from origin 'https://chat.univerbal.app' has been blocked by CORS policy: Response to preflight request doesn't pass access control check: No 'Access-Control-Allow-Origin' header is present on the requested resource. If an opaque response serves your needs, set the request's mode to 'no-cors' to fetch the resource with CORS disabled.

[Hadjimina]

Yeah, we should probably clean up the logs. However, I was unable to reproduce the issue. Can you send a recording to me and then I'll investigate [email protected]

[abricq]

This looks really cool, for sure I will to try this out ! I will look into it for Italian.

I'm not sure how much work is it for you guys to add a language, maybe it's easier for you to add languages than for other mainstream platforms thanks to the use of AI ? If it the case, it would be really nice to have one serbo-croatian language, such as croatian or bosnian.

I struggled to find ressources for these languages. Since a few months I have been trying to learn Bosnian (going on a long trek in the balkanies this summer) and I was just not able to find any "modern" service (Duolingo, Babel, etc ...) which supports these languages. I guess it makes sense since almost no-one wakes up and decide to learn Montenegrin, but maybe you can find a niche market.

Anyway, cool product ! I hope you guys make it.

[dindindin]

While it won't be a full-on app, you might want to look into YugoGPT/YugoChat https://www.yugochat.com/en as it was specifically trained on the b/c/s/m languages

[Hadjimina]

even though the AI might know some of that language, it will probably not be familiar enough to basically never make a mistake. Another problem is that speech recognition, Text to speech and the translator also need to work in that language.