Where to Move?

[ahmed546]

Hi,

Just got my bachelors in computer science and masters in software engineering.

I have Dutch EU passport.

At some point in my career I want to have my own business, but taxes here (Netherlands) are really high.

I prefer cold weather and want highest standard of living possible. I want to settle down and raise a family of two kids.

Where should I move to?

[mtmail]

Nobody likes taxes but the highest standard of living, including infrastructure, hospitals, security have to be paid for somehow.

[ahmed546]

also I don't care about public transport and stuff

I'm fine getting around by car mostly

not sure about the security part, Dubai has no taxes and is very safe (although really really hot)

[ahmed546]

true, but I mean highest standards with lowest amount of tax as a business owner

[throwaway11460]

You're EU citizen so you have free entry to Switzerland. I'd seriously explore that.

Another option could be Poland, Czech Republic, Bulgaria.

[huevosabio]

San Francisco, it has the right cultural mix for starting a company, amazingly beautiful city and nature, enough cold and sun throughout the year.

Don't listen to the bad press, not because it's untrue but because it's incomplete. The bad things are bad, but the good things are glorious.

[hnthrowaway0328]

Come to Canada, find an IT job, grind for 2-3 years, apply for immigration, apply for citizenship, find a US contractor job, grind for 10-15 years, find a gov job, relax for 15 years, retire.

[ahmed546]

US contractor job while living in Canada? Would that pay higher than a Canadian contract?

What about education and stuff for children? Will it be very expensive?

What type of wealth do you think I can build up with this plan?

Kind regards

[ih]

I just moved to the Seattle area and like it so far. It's very scenic and cool so far temperature-wise (although getting warmer over the years from what I read). I have family here, but even if I didn't, it'd be a strong candidate because of the weather (I'm ok with cloudy and cool), nature/scenery, and the tech industry. Housing is quite expensive though so raising kids may be more difficult...

[ahmed546]

yeah I heard Seattle was the best for money in the US,

the weather is great, I like rain while working tbh

I'm pretty sure it's really hard immigrating there though from the netherlands

(correct me if I'm wrong)

[2rsf]

> I prefer cold weather and want highest standard of living possible. I want to settle down and raise a family of two kids.

While the on-paper taxes in Sweden are high (and salaries are lower) you get back more than in the Netherlands, especially with kids. I can compare my quality of life with acquaintances in the Netherlands and ours is definitely higher, having a similar background.

[ipaddr]

The obvious choice is to go to Germany. Another option is to go virtual and stay in your country until you reach a point where the tax savings make sense. Canada might be a good choice for nature and business. England could make sense.

[ahmed546]

Germany seems really similar to the Netherlands, how is it an obvious choice?

With virtual you mean working remotely and then keeping your clients while making the move? Or trying to build some kind of business completely online?

England seems similar to Netherlands too. Canada might be interesting, although I wonder why so many Canadians immigrate to the US.

[yellow_lead]

There was a recent article posted here about how difficult it is to setup a company in Germany though.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39959368

[ttymck]

What do you dislike about taxes?

You will pay the same tax in the US, and get much less for your money.

You might need to focus on what you can control (your business, which you've told us nothing about), rather than what you cannot.

[ahmed546]

I'm just wondering where I could have the best life possible being a small business owner.

Tax depends on the state, Washington has no income tax. It's a tech hub as well and you can make much muuuuch more money over there than in the Netherlands.

I'm still really young so location is definitely something I can control.

I have no business yet and I'm at the beginning of my career.

I don't have a wife, but I'm planning to find one and have 2 kids.

[jorisboris]

My gut feel would say Canada. It's cold, it's high standard of living, I'm not sure about taxes but I presume better than Europe.

but it's a gut feel, not based on facts or local knowledge.

[decide1000]

Taxes in the Netherlands are high but there are ways to reduce them.

As a fellow dutch I've been looking at Romania and Hungary for the same goals. However, I stayed in the Netherlands and I am happy I did.

[ahmed546]

How much can you reduce the taxes? They're like 50% above 70k, which you easily reach with a SaaS business or something.

I heard about Romania through Andrew Tate. Always thought it was a shithole.

Why did you end up deciding to stay in the Netherlands? Although our country will always have a special place in my heart, it does not have a lot to offer regarding for example nature. We also have a housing crisis right now.

Did you look into whether or not you'd need to learn a new language?

(cuz I'm not sure if that's required in our industry)

[keiferski]

If you want to be in Europe, have cold weather, higher salaries, relatively low taxes, and a decent environment for families, then Switzerland is probably the answer.

[closetkantian]

Maybe Korea or Japan. Have you considered the Baltic states like Estonia and Lithuania?

[ahmed546]

I love Japan, I really do but they speak almost 0 English and their language is really hard to get good at.

Also taxes in Japan seem to be quite high, on par with the Netherlands.

Baltic states look interesting! According to google Estonia has a fixed 20% income tax.

Although I'm not sure how to pick between them, all three look kind of similar. I've also surprisingly never heard about someone migrating there for financial purposes. I've always thought of the US as the only place to make a lot of money.

[seabass-labrax]

I'm engaging because it's an interesting question, but it's also a really strange question. Firstly, because you're effectively looking for tax advice in every country simultaneously - this is the domain of experts whose usual clients are people who've already made the money, not those at the beginning of a entrepreneurial career.

The difference between tax levels between countries can be tens of percentage points. But the difference between the productivity of a competent manager-owner and an incompetent one can be hundreds of percentage points! Half of all companies fail within three years of starting. Losing your company is like having a tax rate of 100%! With a masters education in computer science, why not study for another masters degree or doctorate in business? That sounds like a much better investment than moving across the world in order to optimize your future tax situation. Countries can't take away your education, but they can certainly change taxes.

Also, you've not given any hints as to what you enjoy in life. You clearly have preferences - you said you prefer cold weather - but if you're in business, say, for the startup culture, you probably won't get much of a thrill on a pacific island, even if (on paper) it might be the cheapest place in which to start an internet business.

Finally, does your family come into your business in any way? If you aspire to be the manager of a business that will one day pass to your heirs, you'd want to also consider your children's opportunities - availability and cost of education, for instance.

[ahmed546]

In order to pay taxes in a certain country, you need to live there. It's easier to build the company right from the start in your desired country, than to fire all your staff and move there.

I'm not a know-it-all, I can partner with someone that has a masters in business administration or similar. This remark in particular sounds kind of ridiculous.

In life I enjoy sitting home, reading and playing guitar. Almost all countries have superior nature to the Netherland I can sometimes explore in the weekends.

My children can do their bachelors in the country we live in. Since I have an EU passport I can easily send them to do a masters at a more highly ranked university. Especially with the money gained from the tax-savings.

[WhereIsTheTruth]

Switzerland

[ahmed546]

high taxes except for canton Zug iirc

very overrated, barely worth moving to if not for the great nature