Companies with PIPs stand firmly on the "Adult Day Care" side of the industry.
When serious professionals try to work together and it doesn't work out, someone is asked to leave, and they do. They get to play it off as a reason other than performance. Egos and careers remain undamaged, and everyone can move on.
Adult Day Care centers have very low bars to clear, and most roles could be performed by basically anyone. Firing someone requires a lot of pomp and circumstance in order to seem fair. After all, everyone else is barely doing anything, and they will get to keep their jobs.
If you get put on a PIP, you know what game you're playing, and you absolutely should not quit. Make them fire you, and collect unemployment. Then move on to the next host.
> If you get put on a PIP, you know what game you're playing, and you absolutely should not quit. Make them fire you, and collect unemployment. Then move on to the next host.
What game is that? It's common for employers to use PIPs to create a paper trail prior to terminating somebody who doesn't get the memo that they are not making the grade. That's because performance reviews tend to under-document problems, which leaves the employer open to problems if the matter ends up in court. (Which is not particularly surprising--most people including managers are uncomfortable giving unvarnished feedback.)
This! Ive worked for these places- I remember after a really stellar year (By all meaningful metrics I was our strongest performer), one poor interaction with this really whiny waste of space led to me being talked to by my "manager", someone younger and less experienced by all counts- I straight up started the conversation with "Am I on a pip", "No", and then proceeded to derail their entire attempt to justify someones personal complaints about me. Ended the call, started applying- peaced out 2 weeks later. Your comment is spot on for that work environment... You being on PIP or not, run.
Isn't it better to leave on the best terms possible? In my career I've sometimes needed to get references from my last few positions to get offered my next one. Wearing out everyone's good will while you run out the clock doesn't sound like a good strategy.
Some places the pip is an alternative to unemployment - if they can "show cause", which is what the PIP is, then your unemployment benefits are reduced or cancelled.
Both times I put someone on a pip it was heartbreaking. They were hired to do X, Y, and Z. Their cv indicated they were capable of X, Y, and Z. Both desperately needed the job. The pip was “you must complete X, Y, and Z each week. I can’t do your work for you, but I want you to be successful and I’m here to support you”. One was a payroll related position where the lens in which they were evaluated was clear (we need less than a certain number of paycheck errors each month).
Both failed… I would have much preferred keeping them to finding and training someone new.
Keeping low performers on a team (or ones that yield "failed projects" consistently) isn't good for the rest of the team and/or your own personal stress and productivity (as a manager).
They are not all in bad faith. Maybe it depends on the company.
Once I had a really bad family issue. Won't go into it, but I took a bunch of time off. Coming back to work, I wasn't fully engaged, because there was a lot of chaos. So I got put on a pip.
My manager did this in good faith. He gave me a bunch of things to do, a bunch of milestones to meet, deadlines.
Honestly, it was a lifeline I needed. And better, I didn't have to guess on schedule, make promises on tight deadlines. So I worked specifically to the milestones. Helped people after things were done. Didn't take on extra, but added it to my notes. And I got through it.
Now I was worried. Was this just gathering evidence for something inevitable. Was it pre-decided? I just took it on good faith, did the work, and when I accomplished the goals, I was off the pip.
I was good after that. I think I'm better for it.
(that said, I've been told a second pip might be impossible to pull off)
But was that really a pip? A "pip" in corporate culture is typically also combined with a chat with HR and official documentation written by, for, and with HR.
1) got a talking too about performance - it wasn't called a pip (my mom was dying and I was taking too much time out for medical appointments for her. Note the discussion was shortly after she had passed)
2) As a fairly new manager (at the time) I had to put my first hire as a manager onto a pip. It was painfully obvious to everyone they were not capable and struggled with the most basic things.
While I didn't hold out much hope they would turn it around, I gave them every opportunity to prove to me they could do the job (or learn at least to) they were hired to do, instead they cheated their way through the pip, passing others peoples work off as their own.
> 1) got a talking too about performance - it wasn't called a pip (my mom was dying and I was taking too much time out for medical appointments for her. Note the discussion was shortly after she had passed)
If you are in the United States, FMLA[1] provides job-protected leave for these sort of situations and ensures you have a job to come back to when it's over. Most smaller companies I've been at really hate to do the paperwork for it, but they're federally mandated to provide the benefit.
> I gave them every opportunity to prove to me they could do the job (or learn at least to) they were hired to do, instead they cheated their way through the pip, passing others peoples work off as their own.
I feel like this is the problem with PIPs. From the managerial side, there is this good-faith expectation that a poorly-performing employee will snap back into shape once put on-notice. For people that are chronically incapable of certain tasks, this is a deliberately bad-faith expectation. And while it's not particularly common, it also stands to reason that a well-performing employee could be judged by unfair metrics or assigned an impossible task. So now everyone feels wronged. It's like a minimally-viable abstraction for making a firing appear natural and documented.
Dumb throwaway here as stupidly my real name is attached to my primary account.
I just got PIP'd, and then fired. The objectives of the PIP were impossible to complete, dependent on externalities that I couldn't control. A box checking process indeed. Although, I dont think my boss entered it in bad faith, I'm pretty sure his boss made the decision.
WHat sucks is that I've been fighting some medical issues for the past 1.5 years thats made it difficult to focus and think. Things are starting to resolve, but I've had to completely change care teams. And, I was shitcanned despite letting management/HR know about the issues, having letters from two different docs.
I did my best to complete the objectives, even knowing I wouldn't. I did use the time to look for work, but unfortunately, didnt get anything nailed down before the termination.
Could you have taken FMLA to go part time — I’m not sure but it may give some coverage from the PIP process (while on FMLA can they PIP you?) and then with a full recovery maybe you would have a chance?
PIPs can be the result of a bad manager. I think "low performers" should be given a 2nd chance on a different team. If their new manager says the same thing, then fire them. I've seen people who didn't gel with their assigned team or project for whatever reason, only to be transferred elsewhere in the company and do well.
This is a common practice at many large companies, though it isn't explicit, and it's rarely transparent. Managers try to find roles on other teams for their worst performers in order to get them out of their organization, because that's frequently easier than using a PIP to fire someone. Unfortunately, the way you get another manager to accept your poorly-performing employee is to talk up their skills and talk about how they have career development dreams that would be perfect for this other role.
Better to be put on a PIP than this other weird thing that can happen sometimes, where you’re “unassigned” from a team, maybe due to layoffs or restructuring or performance, but report to essentially no one and have no real work to do. Eventually they expect you to get frustrated and quit, but it can be very difficult when you are in that situation to figure out where you stand.
that doesn't sound that bad as an swe. Work on some of those frustrations, do some refactoring, bug fixing and documenting. Maybe have some extra time for job hunting. At least you're being paid.
I got put on a PIP once. It happened because a project I was leading suffered from a huge scope blowout in the 11th hour, and I missed the deadline. To be honest, it actually really hurt my self-esteem. I had a pretty hard time dealing with it at the time. I now look back and realize that the project couldn't possibly have succeeded even if they had two of me working overtime. I ended up moving on from that position a few weeks after.
I had a somewhat similar experience. I was working at my long-time dream employer. They say never meet your heroes and all that.
I had been working on two related projects and was really struggling because the company wanted "something different" than the industry norm. I could please one stakeholder but not another, and it went on like that for awhile. To this day I can't fathom why the various managers involved couldn't meet with _one another_ to sort out their creative differences, but they didn't. I was stuck trying to implement for competing aims that seemed more and more incompatible.
I couldn't see the forest for the trees because all of that was additional to my core work.
So, I didn't see a PIP coming. Got called into an unscheduled meeting one Friday. My boss says "hey didn't we have a meeting this afternoon? Let's hop on Zoom." It was like 4:30 PM and we absolutely didn't have a meeting scheduled. I got told I was being put on a PIP because my project wasn't delivering.
Created a game plan and was told we'd do check-ins in writing (via email) and a Zoom each week until "things were back on track." I busted my ass afresh and I sent a start-of-week email with my agenda for the week, an end-of-week check-in to compare my agenda to work completed, and to schedule a call.
What I absolutely should have seen coming was that I was going to be terminated. I should have seen that coming because I got not a single reply to the check-in emails I sent. I thought the Zoom calls sufficed. Each week I was told "hey, yeah, I saw that, great work! No notes!" But any time I tried to record the call I was admonished; it was clear I could either record the call or we could have the status meeting.
And then they laid a bunch of my team off, and reposted what I'd been doing as a new role. I didn't see it coming at all. Maybe I should have. My boss even said "some people see this coming," and told me it wasn't about performance. I was left hurt and confused. I had just gotten acknowledged for delivering very well on my core KPIs at an all-hands meeting the month prior.
I work with two people who survived PIPs and are now productive members of my teams. I wasn't the manager involved, but I think she made a good choice, both when she PIP'ed them and by passing them when they picked up their game. This is going to vary company to company, but from my perspective there's absolutely no reason a capable person can't get themselves out of a PIP and remain at a company.
> from my perspective there's absolutely no reason a capable person can't get themselves out of a PIP and remain at a company.
Many (possibly most) companies use PIPs as a pretense for a firing decision that has already been made. In those companies it is a fool's errand to try and improve your performance (because performance may have nothing to do with it). You cannot win. You should feel lucky that you only seem to have encountered legitimate pips where both sides are hoping for improved performance.
I remember the first time hearing a coworker was getting a PIP without knowing what it meant. I thought the description sounded awesome. “He works with his manager to find ways to get better at his job, level up his skills, and maybe get a mentor? Sign me up!”
PIP is such a bullshit term. Their “official” description sounds like a great thing that all employees could benefit from. If a company waits until the last moment to give their struggling employees the kinds of tools they should be freely offering in good faith to everyone, then they suck.
No shit, next you're going to tell me water is wet.
If you're the sort of person that cannot decode what a "Performance Improvement Plan" means then you're going to be eaten by the industry alive. It's insane to me that we even need qualified people to reassure anyone about that.
> If you're the sort of person that cannot decode what a "Performance Improvement Plan" is then you're going to be eaten by the industry alive.
On the one hand, yes, this is true. On the other hand, it shouldn't take decoding doublespeak to know that a "performance improvement plan" has nothing to do with improving performance, and is just a box-checking CYA exercise to make a paper trail for firing someone.
And the way in which people learn this obnoxious bit of doublespeak is by having plenty of readily findable sources telling them "this is a box-checking exercise for firing you, do not believe any HR information claiming otherwise".
Many people take their relationships with their employer in good faith. To discard these people as obviously unfit would be a massive loss to any industry.
> If you're the sort of person that cannot decode what a "Performance Improvement Plan" means then you're going to be eaten by the industry alive. It's insane to me that we even need qualified people to reassure anyone about that.
Business and employment works with good faith. A lot of people work with good faith. If your manager suddenly pulls a PIP, the good faith is broken but the managers continue to lie that PIPs can be surpassed. It is the lies that detract people - especially the ones that are clinging to the job for valid reasons like family, mortgage, visas etc.
American companies have abandoned good faith. Gen Z is learning it from millennials and abandoning corporate America. Articles such as this one are just highlighting to people how to recognize bad faith.
From the way you write, I have a feeling you overestimate your savviness on "the industry". It's insane to me that you act this shocked and hysterical or someone not knowing all the bullshit "play" formalities that corporations have developed over time.
This seems like a good article for folks who don't know (which is still a lot - people think that getting into tech is a sure way to get rich and not be routinely abused by a neocolonial industry)!
alphazard|1 year ago
When serious professionals try to work together and it doesn't work out, someone is asked to leave, and they do. They get to play it off as a reason other than performance. Egos and careers remain undamaged, and everyone can move on.
Adult Day Care centers have very low bars to clear, and most roles could be performed by basically anyone. Firing someone requires a lot of pomp and circumstance in order to seem fair. After all, everyone else is barely doing anything, and they will get to keep their jobs.
If you get put on a PIP, you know what game you're playing, and you absolutely should not quit. Make them fire you, and collect unemployment. Then move on to the next host.
hodgesrm|1 year ago
What game is that? It's common for employers to use PIPs to create a paper trail prior to terminating somebody who doesn't get the memo that they are not making the grade. That's because performance reviews tend to under-document problems, which leaves the employer open to problems if the matter ends up in court. (Which is not particularly surprising--most people including managers are uncomfortable giving unvarnished feedback.)
spacecadet|1 year ago
samaltmanfried|1 year ago
GauntletWizard|1 year ago
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
napierzaza|1 year ago
[deleted]
WFHRenaissance|1 year ago
[deleted]
jwsteigerwalt|1 year ago
Both failed… I would have much preferred keeping them to finding and training someone new.
ugh123|1 year ago
throw141292|1 year ago
Once I had a really bad family issue. Won't go into it, but I took a bunch of time off. Coming back to work, I wasn't fully engaged, because there was a lot of chaos. So I got put on a pip.
My manager did this in good faith. He gave me a bunch of things to do, a bunch of milestones to meet, deadlines.
Honestly, it was a lifeline I needed. And better, I didn't have to guess on schedule, make promises on tight deadlines. So I worked specifically to the milestones. Helped people after things were done. Didn't take on extra, but added it to my notes. And I got through it.
Now I was worried. Was this just gathering evidence for something inevitable. Was it pre-decided? I just took it on good faith, did the work, and when I accomplished the goals, I was off the pip.
I was good after that. I think I'm better for it.
(that said, I've been told a second pip might be impossible to pull off)
ugh123|1 year ago
vhodges|1 year ago
1) got a talking too about performance - it wasn't called a pip (my mom was dying and I was taking too much time out for medical appointments for her. Note the discussion was shortly after she had passed)
2) As a fairly new manager (at the time) I had to put my first hire as a manager onto a pip. It was painfully obvious to everyone they were not capable and struggled with the most basic things.
While I didn't hold out much hope they would turn it around, I gave them every opportunity to prove to me they could do the job (or learn at least to) they were hired to do, instead they cheated their way through the pip, passing others peoples work off as their own.
upon_drumhead|1 year ago
If you are in the United States, FMLA[1] provides job-protected leave for these sort of situations and ensures you have a job to come back to when it's over. Most smaller companies I've been at really hate to do the paperwork for it, but they're federally mandated to provide the benefit.
[1] https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fmla
talldayo|1 year ago
I feel like this is the problem with PIPs. From the managerial side, there is this good-faith expectation that a poorly-performing employee will snap back into shape once put on-notice. For people that are chronically incapable of certain tasks, this is a deliberately bad-faith expectation. And while it's not particularly common, it also stands to reason that a well-performing employee could be judged by unfair metrics or assigned an impossible task. So now everyone feels wronged. It's like a minimally-viable abstraction for making a firing appear natural and documented.
gaws|1 year ago
Like what?
adumbthrowaway|1 year ago
I just got PIP'd, and then fired. The objectives of the PIP were impossible to complete, dependent on externalities that I couldn't control. A box checking process indeed. Although, I dont think my boss entered it in bad faith, I'm pretty sure his boss made the decision.
WHat sucks is that I've been fighting some medical issues for the past 1.5 years thats made it difficult to focus and think. Things are starting to resolve, but I've had to completely change care teams. And, I was shitcanned despite letting management/HR know about the issues, having letters from two different docs.
I did my best to complete the objectives, even knowing I wouldn't. I did use the time to look for work, but unfortunately, didnt get anything nailed down before the termination.
nytesky|1 year ago
randerson|1 year ago
pliftkl|1 year ago
JohnMakin|1 year ago
russelldjimmy|1 year ago
- unassigned from a team
- report to no one
- no real work to do
- got frustrated and quit
I didn’t stick around till appraisals. I shudder to think what might have happened if I did. No one was looking at my performance.
jemmyw|1 year ago
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
samaltmanfried|1 year ago
TheNewsIsHere|1 year ago
I had been working on two related projects and was really struggling because the company wanted "something different" than the industry norm. I could please one stakeholder but not another, and it went on like that for awhile. To this day I can't fathom why the various managers involved couldn't meet with _one another_ to sort out their creative differences, but they didn't. I was stuck trying to implement for competing aims that seemed more and more incompatible.
I couldn't see the forest for the trees because all of that was additional to my core work.
So, I didn't see a PIP coming. Got called into an unscheduled meeting one Friday. My boss says "hey didn't we have a meeting this afternoon? Let's hop on Zoom." It was like 4:30 PM and we absolutely didn't have a meeting scheduled. I got told I was being put on a PIP because my project wasn't delivering.
Created a game plan and was told we'd do check-ins in writing (via email) and a Zoom each week until "things were back on track." I busted my ass afresh and I sent a start-of-week email with my agenda for the week, an end-of-week check-in to compare my agenda to work completed, and to schedule a call.
What I absolutely should have seen coming was that I was going to be terminated. I should have seen that coming because I got not a single reply to the check-in emails I sent. I thought the Zoom calls sufficed. Each week I was told "hey, yeah, I saw that, great work! No notes!" But any time I tried to record the call I was admonished; it was clear I could either record the call or we could have the status meeting.
And then they laid a bunch of my team off, and reposted what I'd been doing as a new role. I didn't see it coming at all. Maybe I should have. My boss even said "some people see this coming," and told me it wasn't about performance. I was left hurt and confused. I had just gotten acknowledged for delivering very well on my core KPIs at an all-hands meeting the month prior.
Never meet your heroes, they say.
mvdtnz|1 year ago
xnx|1 year ago
Many (possibly most) companies use PIPs as a pretense for a firing decision that has already been made. In those companies it is a fool's errand to try and improve your performance (because performance may have nothing to do with it). You cannot win. You should feel lucky that you only seem to have encountered legitimate pips where both sides are hoping for improved performance.
hackeraccount|1 year ago
jarsin|1 year ago
kstrauser|1 year ago
PIP is such a bullshit term. Their “official” description sounds like a great thing that all employees could benefit from. If a company waits until the last moment to give their struggling employees the kinds of tools they should be freely offering in good faith to everyone, then they suck.
scottwilliamsd|1 year ago
[deleted]
talldayo|1 year ago
If you're the sort of person that cannot decode what a "Performance Improvement Plan" means then you're going to be eaten by the industry alive. It's insane to me that we even need qualified people to reassure anyone about that.
JoshTriplett|1 year ago
On the one hand, yes, this is true. On the other hand, it shouldn't take decoding doublespeak to know that a "performance improvement plan" has nothing to do with improving performance, and is just a box-checking CYA exercise to make a paper trail for firing someone.
And the way in which people learn this obnoxious bit of doublespeak is by having plenty of readily findable sources telling them "this is a box-checking exercise for firing you, do not believe any HR information claiming otherwise".
darby_nine|1 year ago
nine_zeros|1 year ago
Business and employment works with good faith. A lot of people work with good faith. If your manager suddenly pulls a PIP, the good faith is broken but the managers continue to lie that PIPs can be surpassed. It is the lies that detract people - especially the ones that are clinging to the job for valid reasons like family, mortgage, visas etc.
American companies have abandoned good faith. Gen Z is learning it from millennials and abandoning corporate America. Articles such as this one are just highlighting to people how to recognize bad faith.
vsuperpower2020|1 year ago
jackyalcine|1 year ago
lxgr|1 year ago
I’m glad you know what a PIP is – how about a little less judgement for today’s 10000? https://xkcd.com/1053/