Ask YC: Cars?

[icey]

I know that most of the "Asks" that we get here are business and tech related; but I get the feeling that hackers tend to be car people as well (I know I am).

Anyways, I'm in the market for a new car. I had an embarrassing situation recently where I picked someone up from the airport in my 2-seater and couldn't fit their luggage in my (tiny) trunk.

So, I thought I'd solicit the hacker opinion - What do you guys drive? Do you like it? Is it fun?

I'd like to keep it under 50k, used is fine too, if it's something you'd recommend. If you know something that's definitely worth it, but more than 50k; I guess I'd like to hear about that too - I just have a hard time buying a car that costs more than the house I grew up in.

I live in a car town, so bicycles aren't an option!

[mechanical_fish]

If you have to ask YC for an idea of what car you want to buy, don't spend $50k for a car. Buy a decent used car for $6 to $10k, or a new car for $15 to $20k (I bought a Honda Fit; it's nice), bank the rest of the money, and wait.

I won't say you shouldn't blow $50k on a car -- I have friends who drive autocross and are really into cars -- but if you don't already have a short list of performance cars that you lust for you should just drive a compact Honda or Toyota for a while and be done with it.

What's wrong with the two-seater, again? Can't you just rent or borrow a car when you have to pick people up at the airport? You can rent a lot of cars for $50k. ;)

[pistoriusp]

I would personally recommend a Honda Fit (Jazz in other parts of the world). Incredibly reliable, very good fuel economy, it's pretty cheap and has loads of storage space.

It's also been rated in the top 5 for several years in Top Gear's Car Survey, (I can't seem to find the other years).

http://www.topgear.com/content/carsurvey/2006/features/01/1....

http://www.honda.co.za/main.aspx?ID=128

[KiwiNige]

My advice is to buy a used Volvo. I'm currently driving a 20 year old Volvo wagon and have to say there are not many cars that could be in such good shape for the age and miles, and same is true for my last Volvo. With a car that old I'm spending more on maintenance than I would like but I reckon any Volvo up to 10 years old with a good service history is probably going to be the best deal around.

[icey]

This may end up being the answer, to be honest. I am very into cars; but my tastes lean strongly towards the impractical (hence the two-seater).

[cmos]

I've had the Fit for over a year now and I worship it. It's as if Honda put the smartest engineers on some of the more 'mundane' things you find in a car. For example, the back seat design is brilliant. They fold all the way down for an entire flat space in the back, or flip up for putting in tall objects, like a bicycle.

[uuilly]

I drive a toyota tacoma. The Taliban and African warlords use them as lightweight tanks. They literally never die. My lifestyle takes me off road and in deep snow frequently and I would never get anything else. I've just kicked it's ass for 100k miles and I've done nothing but scheduled maintenance. If you need more than a car get a tacoma. If you don't, they are a complete pain in the city and you'll drive yourself nuts.

Whatever you do you should buy Japanese. I beat up a subaru wagon for 150k near flawless miles before selling it for a good price. They are great. My friends have also had great luck w/ honda's.

[vaksel]

yeah Top Gear did an episode on the Tacoma...they dropped one from a 10 story building, drowned it in an Ocean, lit it on fire and they were able to start it afterwards w/o any new parts.

Here is the episode http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Uc4Ksz3nHM + drop http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfZDtC9kjVk

[neilk]

"The Taliban use them as lightweight tanks" is possibly the most effective endorsement that we'll never see on TV.

[gamache]

I have a 1995 Tacoma at 135Kmi and a 2003 Corolla at 85Kmi. I'd buy either one again, but the damn things won't break. Recommended heartily.

[DenisM]

You should decide on criteria - what is important to you?

When I have realized that over 40,000 people die every year in car accidents in US I have decided to reduce my chances and focus on safety first. This means a lot of air-bags, all-wheel-drive, stabiltiy, traction and abs. Also a powerful engine and agile steering so that I can steer out of trouble and ramp-up quickly when I need to. This has reduced my choice considerably.

Next criteria was larger trunk space, so I figured it will have to be a crossover or a station wagon.

Further, I wanted good reliability (better than what I had from my previous Olds) - my time is too valuable to mess with repairs.

Lastly, I wanted it to look good within my budget (<$40k).

This actually narrowed my choice to two vehicles: Subaru Legacy Turbo and Acura RDX. My girlfriend then broke the tie in favor of the better-looking vehicle (the RDX). So far I am very pleased with all core criteria. The only thing that gives me grief is trunk space - I want it to be bigger still. One (very rare) feauture that I still want is remote start so that I can into a warm car.

If I were to raise my budget by $10k it will begin to include Acura MDX, Infinity FX35 and maybe a couple of others. Another $10k and I would start looking at Porsche Cayenne.

[laut]

If you are worried about getting in to car accidents, don't get a heavy truck or car with a high point of gravity.

If you drive somewhere where there's snow or ice, proper winter tires will give you more safety than all wheel drive.

Electronics can only mitigate the bad characteristics of an SUV, electronics can not break the laws of physics. A lighter car can brake more quickly. A proper car can turn faster without loosing traction or turning over. Accelerate faster, drive faster in general, drive further and use less gas than an SUV.

Of the vehicles mentioned, the Subaru sounds like the safest car. A Volvo V70 is an another wagon that's safe. If you are not going off road, why not get a station wagon instead of an SUV?

Another good safety feature is driver education. Knowing how to handle the car at the limits.

[RobGR]

Fifty thousand dollars is an extravagant amount to spend on basic transportation. You could later end up wishing you had that cash in hand.

You can get a decent, reliable, functional used Corolla or similar for $5,000 to $8,000. If you are confident enough in your mechanical skills at assessing the cheaper cars, you can go less than $3,000. If you are in the middle of starting up a business and don't have the time and need the reliability and trunk space, just buy a used Corolla or Chevy Prizm ( the Prizm is a Corolla with the price reduced due to the GM hood emblem ) and spend the rest of your money on things that matter.

I currently drive a 1988 VW Jetta with more than 200,000 miles, and my other cars have included a Volvo that I finally killed with 333,000 on the odometer. I have enough mechanical knowledge to fix minor things, and I drive slowly gingerly, so I am pretty good at beating the last 100,000 miles out of a car that the previous owner was about to take to the junkyard.

Don't be like me, it probably isn't worth it in the long run. Buy a reliable car less than 7 years old with less than 100,000 miles on it if possible, and spend around $5,000. Don't spend anywhere close to $50,000 on a motor vehicle for basic transportation -- the only things that would justify that would be sports cars, RVs, and possibly specialized work vehicles.

[kcy]

I have the Mazdaspeed 3. It's basically a souped up version of the Mazda 3. It's less expensive than many of the other cars mentioned (which I also looked at) but is far and away the most fun car I've ever driven. Can do a sub 6 sec 0-60, is a hatchback so doesn't catch the eye of the police (side benefit is that it will fit your friends' bags), and gas milage is good.

Never thought I'd drive a hatch, but this thing is a beast without looking super pretentious.

[axod]

I have a Mazda 6 sport and love it to bits. Driven the Mazda 3 before and it was ok, but if you want the full effect I'd get the 6.

Whatever car you choose though, don't get an automatic. Please!

[colonhyphenp]

I'll second the MS3 - it is a very fun car to drive and has amazing handling for the price. Like kcy said, since it's a hatchback you'll have plenty of space.

Comparable cars include the Volkswagen GTI, Subaru WRX, Audi A3 - Lined up against those, the MS3 is slightly quicker and is less aggressive looking (IMHO).

[icey]

Hmmm, this is an interesting one that I really hadn't thought about. My wife, brother, sister, and my carpool partner all drive Mazda 3s and LOVE them.

I may be checking this one out. Thanks!

[alaskamiller]

Buy an used 2008 -- I'm seeing loads of people dumping their new cars -- Honda or Toyota econobox and use the rest of that money for something else more important.

[manvsmachine]

Another point: if your theoretical limit is ~$50K, don't spend that much on the car itself. Multiply it by maybe 2/3 or 3/4 and spend that amount; then buy yourself the best tires, brakes, and suspension parts (optional) that you can afford without going over what you wanted to spend.

[noodle]

buying used is usually a very good option. the car will lose the most value in its first year. buying used tends to mean someone else is taking that hit for you.

[ggruschow]

What do you drive? Honda Fit. Do you like it? We don't think about it, so that's great. Is it fun? It's a car.

Had a super nice, super expensive, super luxury sedan before it.. I didn't like the attention and hassle.

Space-wise, heck, I like to touch my wife. Seriously, it's got plenty of space for me (6'4") and my family (4). I moved a large-ish desk in it last week, and airport runs go smoothly. It'd only be small if we got fat.

[jam]

Pretty big gearhead here. My most important requirements:

price < $20,000, weight < 3500 lbs, go > 200 hp / torque, rear or four wheel drive, fully independent suspension, limited slip differential, manual transmission available, four seats

The reasonable contenders:

2000-2004 Audi S4 (even though it's too heavy)

96-99 BMW M3

1999-2004 BMW 3-series (non M)

2002-2005 Lexus IS300

2005-2006 Saab 9-2X (WRX in disguise)

2002-2005 Subaru Impreza WRX

2004 Volkswagen Golf R32

2005-2006 Volvo S40 T5-AWD

Out of all of those, the old M3 is my personal favorite... followed closely by the IS300. For the price range, I can't recommend anything not on this list. My personal experience is relatively frequent hobbyist track racing & autocross, lots of test driving, and loads of greasemonkeying.

[wehriam]

Worth noting that late model M3s hold their value particularly well.

[gcheong]

Try a luggage rack.

[bjclark]

This reminds me of the whole, "NASA spent $100k developing a pen for space and the Russians used pencils" story.

[tdavis]

A car is a simple utility. Find something cheap and reliable that you wouldn't feel bad about smashing up. I have a '99 Accord with nearly 100k miles on it that has never had an issue, despite being banged up pretty good.

[mattmaroon]

I'm not a car person, but I'm a luxury person, and I have an Rx350. I've had it for 2 years, moved cross country twice in it, and I still love it more every time I drive. The attention to every little detail is astounding. What makes you love it are the little things you wouldn't even think matter that much like the backup camera (I laughed at this and let me tell you, I couldn't live without it now), rain sensing wipers, automatic lights that turn on and off themselves and turn with you as you steer, ample cupholders including one by a vent so you can keep your drink warm in the winter, ability to save seat positions and revert to them with one button push, homelink garage door built in, variable temperature seat warmer, phenomenal traction control (I drove 9 hours home in a blizzard once, laughing at all of the cheaper cars swerving uncontrollably off the road), the suspension that makes railroad tracks nearly unnoticeable, seats so comfortable I'm trying to figure out how to get one for my office. I could go on and on.

And their GPS is unbeatable. Now when I rent a car, I get those Garmins and just end up pissed at how unusable they are. I test drove an Accura and the GPS crashed on me.

Despite being an SUV, it's fast enough that anything faster would just get me into trouble. I laugh at douchebags who have racing spoilers on their Civic, since me in my soccer mom car could smoke them off the line.

And you'll be able to fit luggage for 4 with ease. Buy that car, you won't regret it. The total cost of ownership is surprisingly low for the sticker price given Lexus's value retention and craftsmanship. I'm pretty sure mine was just under $50k fully loaded.

[modoc]

You need to provide some context about what you like/want/need in a car.

Do you want horsepower, handling, interior luxury, technological doodads, room for a family, three dogs, do you drive in the snow, do you race, is gas milage a big deal, what kind of styling are you into, do you like doing your own maintenance, do you want to mod it, how reliable does it need to be, etc...

I moved from a modified '99 Mitsubishi Eclipse to a '00 Audi S4 (which I LOVE). My criteria were:

I didn't want to spend of $20k, I wanted something over 300hp (used a chip to achieve this), I wanted it to handle/perform very well but to be more comfy/quiet/solid than the Eclipse, I didn't care about gas milage, I wanted something that had understated looks and didn't draw cop-eyes or look like a penis-surrogate, I wanted something with a strong modification community and vendors, I wanted something with bigger back seats than the Eclipse, I need all-wheel drive for snow, I wanted something I could track a few times a year.

The S4 is perfect for me (my next move will be to a 2009-2010 S4, S6 or RS4).

[tjr]

I never had much interest in cars. I want something safe and practical that will get me around. I'm about 6'3", and quite literally have a difficult time fitting comfortably into many modern sedan-like cars. (They seem to be getting smaller.) I occasionally need to transport some large-ish audio equipment around, so space is a plus.

To wit, I ended up with a Honda CR-V. It's roomy enough that I don't feel cramped, can hold most everything I need to carry on a semi-regular basis without being huge, and the top-of-the-line model costs around $25k (or, it did, when I got mine). Seems to have excellent safety ratings.

I've been very happy with it, but I'm sure car fans might fine my choice on the boring side...

[anthonyrubin]

Audi A4 with Quattro.

[huhtenberg]

Audi is the understated luxury car.

The only visual difference between the A4 and the S4 (sports model, 2x in price) is a pair of chrome plated side mirrors. If this sort of understatement is your thing, you will love Audi. If you like your bling to be obvious, get the BMW. If you don't care either way, get Benz :-)

icey, given your price range, I would at least test drive an S4. It is a really good car, esp. if you like the actual process of driving.

[webwright]

Really? Everything I read about Audis when I was researching cars told me that:

A) they weren't very reliable. Not a huge deal with a good warranty, but an unreliable car is inconvenient as hell.

B) they have a high cost of repairs.

I think Audio and VW are good examples of marketing driven car brands.

If you want a reliably luxury car, a Lexus seems to be at the top.

Of course, the idea of buying a $50k car seems just plain ridiculous in this (or any) economy.

[naish]

VWs are a good option for those with a more limited budget. They are fun to drive, hold their value, and some of the higher-end models (e.g., the Passat) offer similar drive trains and handling for much less. I've got a 4motion Passat wagon (4motion is exactly the same AWD system as Quattro) which cost several thousand dollars less than a (smaller cargo volume) A4 Avant. It's not quite as nicely appointed, but has all of the luxuries that one really needs. The VW Rabbit (and GTI, if you have a larger budget) is also a great vehicle. The GTI is far superior to the A3 (hatchback version of the A4) in everything but price.

[dcurtis]

I think this is the best option for most people. Audis are like Macs, they retain their value really well.

[tptacek]

My experience with very nice cars is, it's fun to have a really nice car for the first 6-9 months. After that, you're still paying attention to cars --- you just dropped a shitload of money on one --- but you no longer have the best car for the money, because cars keep getting better. The year after I bought my car, they ported the euro manifold to the US model and boosted it by like 100hp. I never felt that kind of irritated when I was driving a Nissan Sentra.

There are probably better things in life to get hung up on than how awesome your car is going to be for a few months. Like, your retirement.

[ctingom]

I've got a Honda Accord, and really love it.

[tlrobinson]

Honda Civic here. Works for me.

Though one day I'd like something with a little more power ;)

[admoin]

a good option. can't really go wrong with a popular honda or toyota model- reliable and extremely easy to find a place for repairs.

[vaksel]

Well you have a number of choices...you really didn't tell us what you like.

I'm guessing Luxury/Performance, so I'd recommend the following: For a little bit more than 50K you can get a bare bones M3 Sedan or a C63 AMG.

But if you want to save money, you can look at a 335i, and then after you buy it, spend about 1K on ECU mods. Straight-line performance you'll be a little bit quicker than an M3.

But you really need to tell us what you want you like, since pretty much the only thing you said it that it needs to have 4 seats and be under 50K.

[dionidium]

Is this forum really so wealthy that a casual recommendation for a $50k car seems normal to most of you? Or is this just posturing? Serious question.

[davidw]

I personally don't like cars very much and use them only for getting from place to place. Bicycles are way better on so many levels: exercise, a sense of freedom, a beautifully efficient machine, something fun to do to get away from the computer, a quick means of getting from place to place over limited distances.

But I'm not a fanatic and cars are useful, so: whatever is functional and won't break down. Toyotas are pretty good that way, or at least those I've owned are.

[icey]

To be clear, I absolutely wish I could ride a bike everywhere; sitting around in traffic just isn't fun and driving never feels as interactive as biking. But the fact of the matter is that everything around here is measured in miles away from where I'm at so bicycling isn't really an option for me unfortunately.

[NoBSWebDesign]

Right now, a lot of car companies are getting reamed by the economy (obviously), stemming a lot from doling out leases and then seeing the values of the cars tanking with the economy, causing them to take large losses. As a result, it is difficult at some companies to get approved with favorable interest rates, whether you're buying or leasing, especially with the Big 3.

I'd start with seeing what kind of car you're compatible with by taking a look at http://www.carzen.com.

I recently bought a Volkswagen Jetta Wolfsburg Edition (same 2.0 turbocharged engine as the GTI and GLI but about $2500 less). Volkswagens retain their resale value (right up there with Mini), so they didn't lose much and are taking advantage of that by giving very favorable rates. Trust me, you can get a more expensive VW for less than other cars, just from the dramatic difference in interest rates. And their service is amazingly better than most other dealerships as well. Two of my roommates have since also gotten VW's.

I'm definitely a car person and autocross regularly. I've taken my Jetta to a track day at a race track we have nearby, and I'm completely satisfied with this thing.

[strlen]

Given your price range and the fact you own a two seater, it seems you're looking for something sporty. I'd suggest:

Infiniti G35 or G37. The former can easily be gotten completely loaded for under $35k (and possibly out the door if you pay cash and go for an unsold 2008 model). The latter can be a little pricier, but not by much.

I've got a 2007 G35 Coupe. Fully-loaded (except for four wheel steering), stickshift. Intense amount of fun to drive.

Prior to that I've had a 2006 G35 Sedan (was rear-ended on US-101 and the car was totaled; which is why I couldn't wait for the G37 to come out, I needed something I could drive soon).

Simply put, this is the most fun with four seats (and the lack of insurance premium due to being a "sports car") you'll have for under $40,000. Rear-wheel drive (AWD available on the sedan), real stickshift available (unlike on the IS350), sporty suspension, limited slip differential (the BMW 335 - which is $10,000 more expensive doesn't include that).

The big downside is fuel mileage (if I stay in fifth and sixth as possible as possible I can get a little over 26mpg, which is still dismal). This is slightly better in the newer models, but still - if you're looking for a fuel efficient car this isn't it. It also requires 91 octane (older models could take 89 and below if with an automatic, but that's not recommended).

Other downside is small trunk space on the 2007 coupe (the sedan is much better; not sure about the 2008 g37 coupe).

Also buy used, unless you're looking to build credit - which may not be the best time for it. When I got my first G35 (the sedan), I a) could get a certified deposit for a rate that is higher than what I am paying for the car b) was less than a year out of college, with no credit history.