Ask HN: How to Deal with a Bad Manager?

[finik_throwaway]

Need some real life advice and stories from experienced folks.

I’ve been working for few years in a large company (think faang as a good approximation) in one of the departments under 1 manager. Relatively good one.

Then by the will of higher ups some teams got drastically reorged and I ended up in a different team with a new manager. Terrible one.

Micromanagement, lack of vision, poor communication, poor planning, zero support, full package. About half the team share similar view. The other half seems like just playing along.

To add more context the overall management culture in the company is neither toxic nor great. There is definitely hierarchy and go over her head doesn’t sound like a good idea. Internal movements are basically non existent.

I still care about the mission and about what I do. Though not as much as before this all happened.

What would you do in my shoes to make the best of the situation?

[ednite]

I'll give this a shot, speaking from experience.

I’ve worked as a consultant with small and large organizations for most of my career, and I’ve seen this exact situation play out more times than I can count.

If I could go back, I’d tell my younger self not to stick around under bad leadership or in an unhealthy environment. It’s rarely worth it. Even if you care deeply about the mission, a toxic manager will slowly drain your motivation and confidence. I stayed in a few of those situations too long, thinking I had to tough it out. I didn’t, and neither do you.

The projects I’m most proud of were with teams I genuinely enjoyed working and growing with. That’s not a coincidence.

Start quietly looking. The right environment can bring out the best in you in ways this one won’t.

I really hope it works out for you.

[laborcontract]

+1 to this. I was in one situation for too long. The problem for anybody in this situation is that finding a new job is hard. If you're not the type of person that interviews well or is great on paper, then the trick to pulling off the switcheroo is to focus on making great relationships now as much as anything. There are many ways to hop on to a new rail, you just have to know that it's the right decision.

Don't be a hero in the organization. In the past job. I essentially took over my manager by consistently outshining them. Then they made some unforced errors and I took advantage of the moment, made a political move, and forced their displacement. It was a distinctly unpleasant experience and something I took no glee from doing. Moreover, if you look at the grand scheme of things, nobody remembers that, and you're neither a hero to yourself nor those around you for it. It was a year or two I could have spent finding a productive, healthy, and more facilitating organization.

[marcus_holmes]

This. I've had mental health problems from working under bad managers, and I refuse to put up with it now. In fact, I can't put up with it - I have found that bad management leads to depression and I end up having to leave anyway.

Your manager is supposed to be the responsible adult in the room, and competent at their job. If that's not true and they're making your life worse, you have no obligation to suffer that.

If you possibly can, make this clear to your manager's manager. Even if it's only at the exit interview.

[GlibMonkeyDeath]

This is good advice - I will only add that I usually advise people to never quit in a huff before having a new job in hand. You will feel great warming yourself by the bonfire of the burned bridge, but later it can be pretty cold when you are unemployed.

[7402]

I'll add one thing to this. If you do follow this route, find a new job and give notice to your company, be prepared for them to suddenly wake up, tell you they'll fix everything, make a counter-offer, and urge you to stay.

This doesn't always happen, but it has happened often enough to me, so you might think about the possibility in advance and what you would do.

For myself, I have NEVER taken the counter-offer and stayed. When I have had a bad manager, I regarded that as a failure of my manager's manager as well. I didn't think the situation would instantly be fixed, miraculously, if they did fire my boss or move me to a new position in the same company. But that is just my experience. It would be good if others who have had a different and successful experience staying would speak up too, so you can get the full picture of possible outcomes.

[aaron_seattle2]

+1. You're paying a career tax and an opportunity cost by sticking around and hoping the problem somehow self-corrects.

[jjav]

> If I could go back, I’d tell my younger self not to stick around under bad leadership or in an unhealthy environment.

The one thing I'd add is, be aware of the politics of the organization.

Is this new manager seen by his bosses to be doing a great job? Or are they still trying to get traction?

I once went from the best manager in my career straight to the worst one due to a reorg. But after a couple months it was starting to become clear upper management didn't think he was so great either. So I waited it out and the new manager lasted less than a year. So I didn't have to give up and leave a team & job I otherwise enjoyed. Had I reacted too quickly I probably would've quit in disgust and later regretted it when the bad manager was removed.

[antisol]

yeah, exactly this: leave. Start applying for things. Use the "Relatively good" manager as your reference instead of the terrible one.

If you get an opportunity for an exit interview, write out a thing pointing out every way in which the terrible manager is terrible.

Encourage your co-workers to do the same.

[realitysballs]

+1

[AdieuToLogic]

I've been in this situation as well and there are no realistic options to improve it without leadership recognizing the manager's affect and redressing same.

> Micromanagement, lack of vision, poor communication, poor planning, zero support, full package.

This isn't going to get any better. More likely it will get worse over time as your new manager is under more stress to deliver on promises made, without the requisite planning and/or consultation with their team needed.

> About half the team share similar view. The other half seems like just playing along.

Experience suggests the latter group shares the same view as the former, but have other priorities (family, stock options, retirement, etc.) outweighing sharing them. This is not a judgement nor a bad thing. It just is.

> I still care about the mission and about what I do. Though not as much as before this all happened.

This is an inevitable transition resulting from this scenario. A cheeky phrase for this is "beating the care out of you."

> What would you do in my shoes to make the best of the situation?

Make as few waves as possible; do what you are assigned to do ethically.

Take your time to identify an ideal opportunity in another company.

Say nothing of the job search.

Only move on to another gig if you have an employment agreement in place.

[kjellsbells]

At all costs: preserve your mental energy. Once this is gone you are in trouble. Symptoms include losing your intellectual sharpness, burnout, damage to personal relationships etc. I've seen people be so crushed by a bad work situation that their technical skills eroded to the point that they couldnt escape to another job. Dont let this happen to you.

Practically, plan your exit. Build your network within the org and outside of it. Keep up with those coffee chats and casual zoom meetups. Remain friendly to others in the org. Cultivate a skill or expertise outside of your current role that could be a stepping stone out of the org. Remain ultra professional at all times eg never badmouth the boss (but dont offer false praise either).

If you have the mental energy, you might also try this, but be warned it can be very difficult: try to understand why your manager is how they are. Every villain is the hero in their own story. They believe that they have to act in a certain way. It's possible that they are irredeemable little martinets, but far more likely that they are inexperienced and flailing around, grabbing onto markers of authority to give themselves a sense of control instead of facing their fears. If you want an intellectual project and iff you can disassociate yourself from the impact, you might try figuring it out and using the knowledge to form a relationship grounded in a better sense of reality.

[mathattack]

There isn't enough data to make a blanket recommendation, so here are some things to consider. All are generalities and can be ignored if certain specifics override them, so use your judgment.

- If your employer is doing well, it is better to stay longer and get promoted from within. (Based on "Relatively good one" I'll assume this is the case.)

- If your employer reorganizes frequently, is supports the "Stick it out case."

- If your employer encourages people to find their own new jobs within the company, that is usually the best route. (This isn't always the situation. In many companies you need your current boss's blessing) Based on your explanation it seems like this isn't the case.

- If you are learning a lot, add that to the case to stay.

- If your new manager has ethical issues (as opposed to just competence issues) start your search right now. Not 30 minutes from now. Not tomorrow. Not next week. Now.

- Same if you're put on any kind of performance improvement plan (PIP). Don't think "I'm competent, I can work my way out of it". PIPs are paper trails to keep them from getting sued. Consider the duration of the PIP to be your severance.

- As you've figured out, it's rarely a good idea to go over your manager's head unless you have an outstanding relationship with the CEO or similar who would ask you later "Why didn't you come to me first?"

- If you have to leave, find a new job first. Then be professional on the way out, and don't throw your manager under the bus. Just say, "I really enjoyed working for you, a dream opportunity came up." You never know when they'll be asked for a back-door reference check on you.

- Similarly, don't badmouth your boss when you interview. (You don't want to seem like someone easily discontented.) You can say "It's now or never to leave, and I think your company has a much better future. I'd rather invest in my career there."

Good luck navigating this!

[scarface_74]

> If your employer is doing well, it is better to stay longer and get promoted from within. (Based on "Relatively good one" I'll assume this is the case.)

It’s almost always easier to get promoted by changing jobs where you control the narrative than try to go through the internal process. Besides that because of salary compression, you usually get paid less even after a promotion than someone coming in at that level. Yes this is true at FAANG size companies too.

[adonese]

Hi, what kind of ethical issues you might be thinking of?

[buildsjets]

At a Megacorp? You can find a new team at your employer.

Or you can find a new employer.

Or you can try to outlast your manager.

Over 25 years at my Megacorp I’ve outlasted many many useless first levels, and only found the need to change teams once.

I am currently in a situation where my useless first level got promoted and is now my skip, and he has hired TWO equally useless new K levels to replace him. We call them “The Orange Cats” as they collectively share one brain cell and no one is ever sure who possesses it on a given day.

[a_victorp]

"The Orange Cats" is gold!

[cbsks]

If you can transfer to another team internally, do it. Otherwise start looking for another job. I’ve done both to escape bad managers. In my experience there is no way to “fix” a bad manager. The only solution is to leave.

[mircerlancerous]

I'd like to disagree with this but it's the only thing that's worked for me.

If you do stay, there's a good chance the manager will eventually be found out. You can play a subtle sabotage game in the background to expedite it. Don't save them from their mistakes, and undermine them by talking about the mistakes. Don't blame them but rather let conversation about mistakes lead them to the same conclusion.

Personally I'm not patient enough to stick around anywhere, so I definitely wouldn't in your case unless I really cared.

[loloquwowndueo]

There’s this saying - you don't quit a job, you quit a manager.

Either tough it out until the next reorg and hope for the best, or start working on your resume :(

[wombat-man]

Going over their head can turn into a pretty sticky situation, because your skip might actually do something, and you might still be working for that manager.

Also, this is a tricky job market. I ran into a similar situation years ago, tried to fix it, and ended up just switching companies since it was a smaller outfit and I fell out of love with the project.

I think the safest thing for you to do, is to try and secure a transfer, or if you have to, a new job outside the company. This took me months, it might take some time. So be ready to knuckle down if you gotta.

On your way out, tell your skip what's going on, and how much you like the project and the mission. Maybe, just maybe, they'll fix the management problem and invite you back.

[29athrowaway]

If you are not getting along with your manager, or if your well being is at stake, you need to look for a way out.

Micromanagers are impulsive, have a short attention span and tend to get their story wrong.

Keeping records offers some protection against accusations behavior from those people.

Ask for complete requirements, estimates that are as refined as possible and don't go on record agreeing to unrealistic timelines.

Do not confront your manager no matter how much provocation is involved.

[xiphias2]

I still care about the mission and about what I do:

Stop caring. You can contribute even more somewhere else later. Do your job, exactly 8 hours, focus on work-life balance, but leave quietly and professionally.

[koliber]

Here's a piece of advice that has helped me many times over.

Learn how to manage up.

Another one that goes hand in hand: help your manager help themselves.

In you case, I would pick one of those things from your list of grievances and help them improve. I would pick something that you think your manager would see as helping her potentially get some benefits for herself.

Potentially, this might involve you doing the work for them.

I've done it, and had it done to me. In all cases it worked out decently well.

Sometimes the manager saw what I was doing and let me have freer reign. Everyone won. In some cases I moved into their role when they left it.

Be careful: this might lead to you becoming a manager one day. You said that internal movements are non-existent, but an internal movement caused you to have a new manager. They might be rare, but they apparently do happen.

[firefax]

Apply elsewhere before you get fired IMHO.

I had a bad manager. As in verbally and physically aggressive. When I did the "correct" things: formally register my disability (autism) with my employer and file a complaint with HR... they gave me a syrupy story about how what I desribed was unacceptable and that the main investigator was on PTO, but to please reach out if I was retaliated against.

I reached out after said bad manager terminated me, and got a syrupy story about how maybe this week, but it's a busy meeting so the week after, they might bring up my concerns about retaliation.

I'm currently facing possible homelessness, because exercising your legal rights in these matters is time consuming even if you find a lawyer willing to help.

So dude... if you have these concerns, enough to ask for advice? Polish your CV and apply around before you have a CV gap.

[999900000999]

Depends on the level of bad.

Most of the time managers aren’t bad, they just aren’t partially good. They want you to jump up or down in a particular way.

Whatever, as long as you don’t mess with my money I’ll do what you want. The rare truly shit bosses I’ve had would lie to me about my own pay. In one exceptional case they decided to not pay me until 60 days after I started. This wasn’t communicated until after I worked there for a month.

Another instance I won’t talk about.

Then again, I did quit 2 jobs just because my manager was an idiot. If I find a better job anyway why not. Life is too short to deal with stupid people

[lormayna]

I have experienced similar situations in the past. The first advice that I could give to you is: don't act instinctively. Wait, understand how the situation is going and then develop a plan. I left a company for a terrible C-level manager (probably the most obnoxiuos and incompetent person that I ever met in my life) and then she was fired during my resignation period.

The second advice is: fight only a battle that you can win, otherwise adapt yourself. If your manager is approachable, talk with him in a polite and propositive way and tell him that you will work better without micromanagement, if you need more communication, ask for weekly 1-1, etc. If your manager is not approachable or touchy, avoid the criticism and beat him with their own weapons: he is micromanaging and this has an impact over the projects? Do what is saying and then if the projects are failing, point the responsability to his choiches. This require a lot of social skills and organization to cover your ass, but it's probably the best way to dismantle a terrible manager.

Otherwise you can leave, but leaving could be always problematic and require time.

But the main advice is: figure out a way to push the stress, the pressure out of you and don't lose mental energy on that.

[dangoldin]

I'd reach out to your former manager that you got along with and ask for their advice. Seems you had a good rapport and they know the company dynamics.

[CitrusFruits]

I had a bad manager at a previous job, although they were just more incompetent than actively trying to micromanage.

I managed to get onto another team by making connections internally. I think showing initiative, interest, and promise to another tech lead or manager in their area could go a long way.

That being said, even after switching teams I eventually left for another job and took a big pay cut for it, but was totally worth it for my sanity.

[PaulShin]

This is a deeply frustrating and energy-draining situation. Thank you for sharing it so candidly. The fact that your motivation has taken a hit is a completely natural and valid response to poor leadership. You are not the problem here.

I'm a founder based in Seoul, so I can't comment on the specifics of US corporate culture or the internal politics at your company. However, I believe the framework for making a decision in such a situation is universal. When I or my team members have faced difficult career choices, I've found it helpful to analyze it through three lenses:

1. The Learning Lens: Are you still growing? Despite your manager, are you still acquiring valuable skills and experiences that you couldn't easily get elsewhere? Is the work itself still challenging you in a positive way?

2. The Mission Lens: Do you still believe? You said you still care about the mission. The question is, how much? Is your belief in the mission and the product strong enough to endure this manager for another 6, 12, or 18 months? Can you still find a way to contribute effectively to that mission?

3. The Life Lens: What is the daily cost? This is the most important question. What is the daily tax this situation is imposing on your mental and emotional health? Is this cost sustainable over time? Is the person you are becoming in this environment—perhaps more cynical or stressed—someone you respect?

No one on the internet can answer these questions for you. My only advice is this: take an hour, write down your honest answers to these three questions. Don't decide today. Put the paper away, and read your own words again in a week.

Often, seeing your own thoughts written down, separate from the daily frustration, makes the path forward surprisingly clear.

Ultimately, your career is long, but your life is happening now. Your well-being is the most important asset you have. Making a conscious choice for yourself, whatever that may be, is a victory in itself. Wishing you clarity.

[chrsw]

Luckily this only happened to me once. I left. There were also some other things going on that made the decision easier. Had I felt more secure in my career I wouldn’t have needed those reasons. I was much happier at the next place.

If you can’t leave try going above and beyond so you’re noticed by another manager with more clout.

[shalmanese]

Learning how to form a relationship with your skip is a valuable but undertaught skill.

You have to understand that

a) There is no "objective" standard by which a manager can be evaluated as good or bad

b) You are not in a position to determine whether your manager is "good" or "bad", only whether they are a good or bad fit for you. The person who determines whether your manager is good or bad is your skip.

Good managers are the ones that get retained and considered for promotion, bad managers are the ones who are slated for demotion or firing. It doesn't matter if a manager does things counter to every management best practice, if they consistently get promoted, they're a "good" manager. If you don't like that, you should consider working for a company where this doesn't typically happen.

How you deal with a manager that is not a good fit for you is to determine how much political capital they have within the organization. If they're there to do the job the company wants them to do but you simply don't fit into the larger objectives, then you need to accept that for what it is and understand that the purpose of a system is what it does.

However, if you understand that they don't have as much political power as they would seem to let on, then you have a lot more room to maneuver. It's possible to work with the skip to transfer you to a different team because the skip values retaining you more than they value keeping that manager happy. It's also possible though risky to help build the case for the skip that this manager was not the right fit and should be helped to find a different position, possibly at another firm which would be more suited to their skills. Skips don't have visibility into the day to day workings of a manager so understanding what a skip needs to build their case and how you can be an ally in the documentation can be a valuable function you can serve.

But ultimately, these are both lower probability scenarios and you should be preparing as a likely contingency for your exit from the company and finding a manager more suited to you.

[sherdil2022]

Life is too short to put up with such useless idiots. As others have already mentioned, either talk to your skip (and above if required) or start quietly looking.

I would also add, look out for yourself. No one is going to look out for you - and be careful who you talk to.