Why you shouldn't do what Aaron did

[Pitarou]

Hi,

TL;DR If Swartz's death is triggering suicidal thoughts, you must understand that this will pass, and life will be worth living.

After seeing the impact of Aaron Swartz's death on the Hacker News community, I am concerned about the Werther effect (the tendency of a prominent suicide to trigger other suicides). I hope I can help by sharing what I learnt through 10+ years of depression and recovery.

Depression robs you of the ability to: 1. remember happiness 2. feel happiness 3. anticipate happiness 4. make considered decisions

#1-#3 make you miserable, but #4 is the killer. Bits of your brain actually shut down, and you run on pure emotion. For example, when I was depressed, I was easy prey for offers like "4 for the price of 3 on this crappy overpriced chocolate" because I couldn't weigh it up. All I could think was "chocolate: good. 4 for 3: good. 4 for 3 chocolate: irresistible". But if you're running on pure emotion and your emotions tell you "everything sucks" well ... suicide looks like a good option.

So why didn't I kill myself? Somewhere in my guts, there was a stubborn belief that "this will pass". You might even call it a sense of entitlement: "come on world -- you can give me something better than this!" And you know what? It DID! Thanks to some wonderful people, and to Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, I found a way to recover.

With the best 10+ years of my life lost to depression, starting from scratch in my 30s has been hard, but it's still a life, and I swear that life is worth more than you can possibly understand when you're depressed.

Stay strong,

Pitarou

[mtowle]

The following probably won't see the light of day-- few of my posts here seem to, for whatever reason. And it's not a lengthy diatribe on reasons for living or reasons for suicide. Much smarter men than I have written on that subject, both recently and throughout recorded history. If it's in such words you find your personal solace, please disregard what I have to say. I never found any solace in it, though; I don't believe in Epiphany Theory.

Currently 24, I've dealt with depression and suicidal thoughts on and off for 4 or 5 years now. That heavy depression where you don't take care of yourself, don't shower, don't brush your teeth, you eat just enough to stay alive (I once subsisted on 2-liters of Mountain Dew and 99-cent bags of Utz cheese puffs for weeks-- dropped my deuces like a wood-chipper). You avoid going to sleep because after 31 episodes of Futurama, all you can think to do is watch a 32nd. You avoid waking up because you don't want to...be alive.

You shut yourself in, you stop going to class, you don't answer anyone's phone calls, you cut yourself off from the outside. You set yourself up to make it as easy as possible. How can your parents miss you if you haven't talked to them in weeks? If anything, you tell yourself, the fact that their calls have gone from hourly to daily to weekly is a sign that they've almost let go...can't let them in now, or it'll be too hard for them when you're gone. Emotionally hard, anyway. Really, they'll be better off with me out of the picture. Everyone will. I'm doing everyone a favor--Mom, Dad, my brother and sister, my friends who obviously just pity me, everyone.

That was me 3 years ago. Today I'm happy! :) I'm fine. I'm doing awesome. I don't attribute the turnaround to blog posts, I attribute it to taking my goddamn anxiety medication. Consistently. Every freaking day. If you forget, fine, but take it the next day, and the day after, and keep freaking taking it. It helps. Take your meds, everybody. Give it a shot for a couple months and see if things change. If you still feel down, go back to your psych and tell them, and they'll prescribe something else. Epiphanies always feel like the answer, and meds feel like the enemy, but do everyone who loves you a favor and give them a shot. Please.

[Pitarou]

I'm really glad your meds worked for you.

In my case, the meds did very little for me. Prozac did nothing. Seroxat made me worse. Venlafaxine moved the needle a little but not enough to make me functional.

And I quite agree that there's no such thing as a blog post epiphany. "Epiphanies" only happen after a whole lot of other preparation behind the scenes.

[seiji]

Studies of suicide[1] show it's an escape from yourself (kinda obvious), but I think the insight is: it all starts with blaming yourself.

If you don't blame yourself, the chain of suicide doesn't start. People don't suicide themselves because somebody else has annoying life circumstances. Circumstances are relative too. Modern society is constantly throwing other people's success, joy, accomplishment, and bravado in our faces. It can make us feel less than what we are. It can make us feel like our lives aren't good enough. Stop comparing your life to anything you've read anywhere anytime. We live in an age of magic. Be a wizard.

Blaming yourself is a dangerous path to go down. Don't blame yourself. The world is big and time is long. Things will work out.

[1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2408091 and summarized at my http://suicidescale.com/ site.

[kordless]

> The world is big and time is long. Things will work out.

The best advice and totally true!

[vannevar]

So why didn't I kill myself? Somewhere in my guts, there was a stubborn belief that "this will pass".

This is a critical point. If you know someone who is prone to depression, it's important to understand that they may simply be incapable of generating this kind of hope within themselves. Depression is not merely the loss of happiness, but the loss of the belief that you can ever be happy again. That's why intervention is so important when someone is suicidal: http://www.save.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.viewpage&p... .

[_delirium]

In general I would agree. But if I were facing prison, it's tougher to say what the rational course of action is. It might be the decision I'd make if I were starkly given the option of suicide or decades in prison. The biggest question would be determining whether that's really the stark decision, or if there's a possibility of finding a way out of it. If acquittal is a possibility, making a decision too early would be tragic (but I'd also be afraid that making a decision too late may be tragic in a different way).

It's true that it's important to make sure that depression is not coloring your assessment of that: it's quite common for depressed people to have a view that things are hopeless when they aren't. But on the other hand, sometimes the world sucks, and not every situation has a good way out of it. For most people, things get better and what seemed like insurmountable obstacles will pass. But I don't think you can honestly tell someone that a major felony criminal case is a temporary setback, something that will pass, and only their depression is making it seem more hopeless than it is. In a large percentage of cases it doesn't pass, and the person isn't able to continue their life as a free person. A situation I hope never to be in, but I don't think the correct decision, if you're actually facing a choice of whether to go to prison for a long time or not, is obvious.

I can't say whether that was Aaron's own motivation, though, or how rational his thinking on the subject was.

[javajosh]

Actually, I think you can do quite a lot from prison. Blaise Pascal famously stated that all of man's problems stems from the inability to sit in a room, alone, quietly. Indeed, many important actions have been taken from prison. But even if activism isn't your taste, but rather self-improvement, it seems like prison is a good opportunity to work on meditation. Indeed, meditation cells in the east are substantially smaller than a prison cell.

Personally, I wish Aaron (and Lessig, and everyone) had made more of a stink. I wish he would have threatened suicide, and then not gone through with it. Maybe swallowed some pills and then rushed to the hospital. That would have gotten attention, and it would have saved a brilliant mind.

[tlear]

He was not incarcerated he could always buy a bus ticket and head over the border. In his situation that is what I would do, run for it. If they really wanted me they would have to spend a lot more effort getting me.

[Pitarou]

Life is precious, even in prison. If Aaron had lived, and gone to prison, I'm sure he'd have made a difference there, just like he made a difference in the outside world.

[hkmurakami]

>Depression robs you of the ability to: 1. remember happiness 2. feel happiness 3. anticipate happiness 4. make considered decisions

I've spent many hours thinking about how each of us can dig ourselves out of our dark places when we unfortunately get stuck in them from time to time; I don't think I've seen the core symptoms of depression expressed so succinctly in these few years since my own difficult times.

I spent Christmas week with friends in Hawaii, and I told my friend (who has lost an older brother to suicide -- so we talk about this sort of thing from time to time) that being conscious of "happy times" like this and making an effort to remember these great moments during our difficult moments is probably a key factor in preventing suicidal thoughts in us. He agreed.

[Mz]

If you react really negatively to the news of this suicide, one thing you can do is seek out company. I have basically been suicidal for years but I am rarely alone. I am actually pretty pissed off and disgusted by the bullshit I am reading on hn today. Most people are assholes most of the time, then someone commits suicide and they try to say something nice for a change. A forum I belonged to posthumously reinstated a former member whom they had banned. I thought they were assholes. They couldn't be supportive while he was alive but he committed suicide so now they have to find some way to make peace with the reality that they were assholes to him while he still lived. Suddenly, the faux niceties come out. Try being supportive and tolerant to the living. The dead don't need your bullshit fake nice words. They are beyond helping.

I may need to start a blog post. I am sure hn isn't interested in more of my cranky ranting about what is very normal behavior but which I happen to think is completely shitty behavior.

TLDR:

If you are at risk for finally offing yourself because Aaron did, try to avoid being alone. Suicide usually occurs when one is alone. Never being alone is a big part of why I am still alive, in spite of having abundant reason to say "fuck you, world, I have had enough of your shit".

[julienmarie]

I just see a lot of people talking about cognitive behavioral therapies. I guess it's one of the differences in the "psy" area between the US and Europe where psychoanalysis is more widespread.

I've also known some deep depressive years (after my mother committed suicide). The cure has been to read ( Nietzsche mainly), to embrace it, to listen to my brain, to little by little understand it. Understanding that depression is a pure symptom of our humanity : it's the moment you loose meaning in your life ( as Nietzsche says, the Human being is the only animal who needs meaning to live ). And then, you realize that the meaning of your life can only come from one source : yourself. We are easily trap by the need of approval, the need of existence within the eyes of the one who surrounds us. These approvals do not exist and are only projected, forecasted, approvals, it's our own devils. We are free to put whatever meaning we desire on our lives, as long as we respect others. Life is a permanent challenge to ourselves. This is the reason this is the most beautiful journey... Life is short anyway, let's make it a beautiful adventure. There is nothing to lose, everything to gain.

[nnq]

I also found Nietzsche uplifting when some time ago I was "loosing faith in humanity"... but I never thought it a good idea to recommend him to anyone else as it seemed quite bad for one's mental health on the whole, though it worked great for me... I'm glad there are others that found inspiration in these writings :)

[pekk]

Psychoanalysis has never passed muster in a randomized clinical trial. When it has even been submitted to a trial, psychoanalysts have never accepted it, and they have not cooperated in carrying out such trials.

This is significant when Freud held his cures to be the primary evidence for his theories - and review of his published cases mostly found he was wrong about them.

If someone I loved were depressive I would seek out therapies which provided some real reason to believe they worked, not pseudoscience. Being European shouldn't mean that you reject science in favor of something which seems more local.

[rohamg]

Thanks for posting this. I too am alarmed at the HN community's response. It is surprising how such strong talent can feel so powerless- you'd think hackers would be less susceptible to giving up given that we can change things with our bare hands. It's easy to give up, it's incrementally harder to say "this will pass", it's hardest of all to snap ourselves out- slap ourselves in the face and remind each other of the immense privilege we all were born into, and see problems in the world with a sense of duty and responsibility, not despair. Honestly- I'm a bit shocked at the sense of entitlement people have of life sometimes, expecting happiness to be delivered on a platter (or via API). Life is a startup, it is a fucking war: keep busy and fight the good fight. If we're on HN we're already in the top 1% - if we have problems we should get out there and do something about it.

[_phred]

>> Depression robs you of the ability to: 1. remember happiness 2. feel happiness 3. anticipate happiness 4. make considered decisions

Just a friendly reminder that depressed people cannot, for the most part "snap [ourselves] out." If the solution was to double down and power through I'd have cured my own depression years ago.

The shitty thing is that it's a long-living subconscious emotional drain. It's a downward slide that for me happened so slowly I didn't even notice until I'd lived at the bottom, completely burned out on life and barely functional for two years. It's not only a mental disorder, it's technically called "psychomotor depression" because it will by degrees affect mind and body in a downward spiral.

I've never lost sight of the bigger issues, the disorder and opportunity for change in world-at-large, but it's impossible to make meaningful progress toward /anything/ whilst waking up every day with a gnawing emotional emptiness and pain thrusting itself into the center of my consciousness. It's care about those bigger issues and for my family that has kept me in this world.

My point is this: whether you mean to or not, you suggest that people can get themselves out of depression. In general, this doesn't happen. Therapy, medication, and support of friends, combined with healthy living have begun to move me forward in my own struggle.

I hope to see in my lifetime an elimination of the social stigma of depression. We're not miserable entitled bastards that need a reminder of our incredible opportunities. We're folk who feel sad and whose brains work in a way such that we can't always see the way forward. That's all there is to it.

[buchuki]

Thank you for this, I've been meaning to author something similar, but I'd choose the exact same words.

After 20 years of depression my death was averted by the words "I'd rather see you institutionalized than dead." Two weeks on the psychiatric ward and an ongoing series of changes later, I now lead the happiest life possible. You can, too.

So now, I give these words back to the community. I don't know who you are, but with all my heart: I'd rather see you institutionalized than dead.

[tomjen3]

I am very happy those words changed your life.

But personally, I would rather be death than institutionalized.

[dear]

Why people need to feel so depressed to commit suicide? I don't understand. Programmers are supposed to be rational, non-emotional. Take it easy. It's just another day in the universe. It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

[ansible]

I believe you are taking good mental balance for granted.

Remember that 'you' are running on top of a very complex biological computer consisting of billions of neurons, with hormones and other chemicals influencing its operation. It needs to constantly be supplied with nutrients and oxygen to function at all.

Sanity is actually a finely balanced thing. You need to worry about the appropriate things, but not too much, and not too little.

Little tweaks to neurotransmitter levels can have enormous effects on your cognition.

Edit: in addition to what the OP had said, also remember this: When you are well and truly depressed, you don't even want to get better. You don't want to feel good. Some part of you is fine with pain and suffering, and more pain and more suffering.

[level09]

depression is not rational, it's an illness, it just happens ..

[Riesling]

Actually I have read studies that indicate that depressed people have a better grasp of reality and that the state that we consider normal is the state of a slight delusion.

[zoba]

I previously struggled with intense depression that lasted about 4 years. At the end of the four years, I had a realization that was so powerful that I haven't entered a period of depression lasting more than a week in the subsequent 4 years. My hopes are that this story, and the lesson learned by the end of it, may help others. In addition, its important to state that this is my story as it happened. I am one man, with one limited perspective on the world. I do not claim to know the details of everyone's situation and therefore do not pass judgement on their decisions regarding a very serious topic.

The story goes like this... In senior year of high school I 'formalized' my atheism. I'll save those details for another day, however, it suffices to say that I was confident that I was drawing the correct conclusion about the nonexistence of god. In thinking about the implications of a godless universe I realized the vastness of time, the insignificance of myself, and how nothing actually mattered. There is (or so I thought) no reason to do anything at all because its all going to be washed away in time. My drive to carry on vanished. Everything was futile, hopeless. Nothing I did mattered so why do anything at all -- why feel happy about anything at all?

I constantly thought of suicide. The ways I'd do it, the statements I'd try to make with it. It was an awful time, and it was all right in the middle of my undergraduate college experience. This continued on for a couple years as I tried as best I could with school while investigating how other people are able to cope with the magnitude of this concept. The reality I found was that most people don't cope with it, or rather, they cope with it by never even considering it. That only made things worse of course, everyone I'd talk to about this had almost nothing to say.

One day I decided I'd actually go through with it. As I lay on my bed I thought to myself "Alright, its been long enough. I've felt terrible and thought of suicide for years now. Either I'm going to man up and get this over with, or I'm just going to keep dreaming of doing it every day." So I bullied myself into finally committing to finish it, and there was a sense of relief. I asked myself why I hadn't decided to do it sooner. That was when I made the most fantastic discovery of my entire life, but first, some other things you should know.

During this time I was also struggling with being gay and, as a gay computer scientist myself, I found Alan Turing very interesting. It struck me as awful that he died in 1954, not long before The Beatles, free love, and the full onset of the civil rights movement. Just a few more years and he could have lived in, and possibly even helped to shape, a much more liberal society.

When I asked myself why I hadn't decided to do it sooner, I realized it was because I was never sure. I always hoped that I would find some clue that would change my mind. So I thought to myself: am I sure now? Do I have conclusive evidence that killing myself is the right thing to do? Am I certain there won't be some dramatic unforeseen shift in circumstances that would improve my life and make me not want to kill myself (like Turing missed out on)? No, I was not absolutely certain that life had no meaning.

We know so little of the universe and theres no way that any of us can be absolutely certain that suicide is the best choice without research that would take hundreds of years in understanding physics, the mind, and probably fields that don't even exist yet. Its possible that life does indeed have a purpose and we simply don't know it. The optimal thing to do is to continue on and do as best we can to discover this purpose -- because if there is a purpose, then actively looking for it is the smart way to find it. If there isn't a purpose, then the time we 'wasted' in search of a purpose wasn't really wasted after all because theres no way to judge whether it was time well spent without an ultimate purpose.

Getting back to the discovery... Probably mere hours away from killing myself, I realized that there was no way to know if killing myself was the right thing to do. There may be something to live for that I don't know about -- some overarching infallible truth embedded in the fabric of the universe that gives life meaning. This was a powerful idea: I should not kill myself because there may be a purpose of life. Now I decided to not kill myself...but what should I do next? I had no plans; after all, I had expected to be dead later that day. Well, it was simple. Nothing mattered except the thing that had kept me alive: the potential for a purpose of life.

I realized that every bit of my life should be based on discovering the purpose that may be embedded in the universe. The most important thing, the driving factor in all aspects of my life, indeed my very own reason for existence and purpose of life was to discover the purpose of life. "The purpose of life is to discover the purpose of life." It is beautiful.

There are many questions and implications that come from realizing this purpose of being alive but for now this comment is long enough. If you're interested in hearing more, let me know. I've thought a lot about this and (in true HN fashion) am building some tools which use ideas that stem from this one. I hope that my story of how I walked right up to the precipice of death and decided to turn back to life helps anyone who is also struggling with such issues.

[Tichy]

I'm glad it works for you, but I find it sad that atheism and life having no purpose depresses you. That life has no purpose effectively means that there is freedom. It is very scary, but we have to choose the purpose for ourselves.

What we "lose" (it was never there actually) is the belief in an external, all-knowing guiding force that somehow makes everything we do ok. However, there are still guiding forces you can choose to follow. They are within us.

Personally I think if there was such an external guiding force, it would make life meaningless.

[venus]

Life has no purpose. It's just applied randomness, like everything else. This is difficult for the non-religious to swallow, that's why religion exists.

HN isn't a support network but I fully understand and appreciate your post.

[mattgreenrocks]

Thank you for your candidness. I hope you discover your true purpose one day. I suspect it is the net result of digging for it for decades, and that it is one of the most important aspects of our life. All the shit (I rarely curse, but it is apropos here) people obsess about - money, power, fame - is but a pale shadow next to the feeling of working toward one's purpose.

I have only a faint idea of mine, and it involves helping people and probably making things.

[orionblastar]

Atheism should not depress you, some religions are atheistic like Buddhism. If you don't see a reason or purpose for life, then make some for yourself. Don't let evil people win who push you towards suicide. I know the feeling I've been bullied and abused by people who told me to kill myself. But I refuse to let them get to me anymore.

At least live for friends and family members who care about you and want you to live. That has to be some sort of rational reason to live right there. If not then find a irrational one like live to see what is new in comic books, movies, TV shows, technology, science, medicine, etc. Just live to see the new stuff come out and enjoy it. Some people live with no known reason or purpose to live, they live because they are alive.

You define your own meaning to life, don't let others force theirs on you. That is your rational reason and rational purpose to live, to find meaning in life. See you are on a quest to learn that, so live it the best way you can without harming others.

[philippeback]

Your journey sounds somewhat like mine. Reading too much of Albert Camus and HP Lovecraft didn't help in looking to the bright side of things. Two key findings for me: 1-I am here to help making a better next batch 2-I am one of the myriad of consciences that the universes uses to watch itself and understand. So it is pretty much normal that there are tons of weird unknowns and unsettling things going on. No need to commit suicide just because I see no meaning in all of that. Note: It was close for me to just go away from my own hand, I was hit twice by a car, and about died from peritonitis.

[xijuan]

I am also glad that everything works out for you. I have recently read a story posted on my university (UBC)'s compliment facebook page. I think it is very similar to your own story. I want to share it with you and all the people on HN. I hope this story could inspire all of you the way it has inspired me.

I tried to post the story here but it says my post is too long. I will just post the link to the story below. http://www.facebook.com/UbcCompliments/posts/222319324569761

[lefinita]

I really like your thought, that "The purpose of life is to discover the purpose of life". I'm not atheist, although not very religious too and I'm not person who feel any happiness, really until now I can't define what happiness is, if happiness is about money, relationship, social interaction, belongings, success, etc. I will disagree with it, I can feel 'happy' when I'm read some papers, re-proving theorem or coding. I don't know if this kind of 'happy' really a happiness or just my brain that make this things a happiness.

[verysoftoiltppr]

What specific actions have you taken in order to discover the purpose of life since you decided you set yourself up to do it?

[aaronthrowaway]

I'd like to add that I went through something very similar, although on a smaller scale. The prosecutor was charging me with ridiculous things, giving me the option to plead guilty or go to trial and keep appealing until I went broke, and ending up in jail on top of it.

When I read Aaron's story, I understood exactly how he felt. I felt like killing myself so many times. The prosecutor destroyed my family, my livelihood, my reputation, my life. And there was no "victim" either. I was completely alone at the end of it.

I'm on year 2 of starting again, and I'm telling you it does get better. A lot better.

I hope that Aaron's story sheds some light on the lack of empathy, and straight up bullying the prosecutors employ against vulnerable people. They went harder on me when they found out I lost my job. They are bullies, plain and simple.

[primespiral]

I too am concerned about the Werther effect.

Traffic on reddits /r/SuicideWatch has exploded. [1]

[1]http://stattit.com/r/SuicideWatch/

[mherdeg]

Just as a heads-up, his last name is spelled "Swartz".

[Pitarou]

Argh! Thanks.

I also spelled my name wrong. I'm actually "Pitarou" rather than "Pitaroua". Post in haste, repent at leisure.

[jdefr89]

I am currently suffering from a depressive episode. I am diagnosed OCD/ADD/Motor tic disorder... I also am in recovery after an addiction to oxycontin. I must say, reading the news was very sad, but at the same time, I know why he did it. I CAN understand why someone would do that to themselves, b/c I have considered it myself. But, I always remind myself that these feelings are transient and I will have good days.. You can't take life so seriously, you need to live and laugh regardless of who you are and how smart you are. Like the force of gravity, depression knows no socioeconomic boundaries -we are all susceptible to its effects.

[toyg]

As somebody who flirted with depression before, I can assure you that what I'm feeling now is pure, unadulterated rage.

The world was robbed of a genius by petty bureaucrats and greedy, hypocritical "non-profit" profiteers. This is obscene.

[guylhem]

The "rationalist" approach that I use is to consider :

- death is a final state

- it always happens, sooner or later

- there are ways to alleviate pain, whether physical or moral (drugs and such)

- suicide is a capital sin

Even if death seems or is a better option, it makes sense to wait for it (and even to hope for it - there are really bad moments in anyone's life).

And if you do not believe in god, the first 3 items are good reason enough to wait, and a valid 4th one can be :

- suicide means killing perfectly good organs, than in other situations could have save many people needing transplants.

Feelings and emotions are fallible, especially during depression, a disease of our emotion-processing system.

[javajosh]

Here's another way for hackers to think of it:

- Depression is a failing test suite.

E.g. it's a signal that there are bugs, and they need fixin'. What do you do when this happens? Give up on the whole project? NO! You dig in, dig deeper, and figure it out. Yes, it is a matter of ego, at least at first.

That's what meditation is for. I like http://dhamma.org but there's others. It works.

[genwin]

> TL;DR If Swartz's death is triggering suicidal thoughts, you must understand that this will pass, and life will be worth living.

This is a common refrain but it won't always really pass. Our society is so harsh at times (mainly due to you-know-who type of people), with the damaging effects staying strong until death, that leaving can be a reasonable choice. What I wish Aaron had done is left in a different way, perhaps to a country with no extradition treaty with the US. There are few of those places left however, as the US tightens its depraved grip on the whole world.

[Pitarou]

You misunderstand. I didn't say that the troubles would pass. I said that the depression would pass, and that life would become worth living again.

[pfortuny]

Yes, this is quite difficult to convey and to explain but some times it seems like you have to just stay on and believe that it will pass.

Because it will pass.

But the hard thing is to believe it and that is where help is needed, I would say.

Thanks.

[klrr]

Somone sent me this when I asked about a programming problem, "The 0th step to solve any problem is to make sure you really understand the problem statement. If you are unable to understand what you read, seek help, you really need it." It triggered suicidal thoughts and I've had many in the past but those times a very kind person got me on better thoughts. But I don't want to waste his time anymore, and I don't want these thoughts either. Is there anyway to stop them?

[krenoten]

It takes work. It's about listening to your pain and guiding your life away from it. I can't emphasize that enough - pain is a profound teacher. It tells you when you need to fix something. It takes work to understand pain, and then to pursue its solution.