Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

[danilocampos]

Recently an ugly and short-sighted essay about teens posting on HN hit the frontpage and was later killed.

I'd like to take a moment to point out how important it is that we encourage young people who take the time and ego risk to share their work.

"I am [age] and I made [thing]"

actually means

"I am new at this. I know you guys aren't. I want you to check it out and give me encouragement and guidance."

Do they want attention? Of course! They believe, correctly, that the attention of more experienced people will lead to their growth. We should absolutely give it to them.

Getting young people into science and technology is the single greatest professional duty any technologist has. We need help. The problems are so many and the minds equipped for them so few.

We have an entire planet of dumb objects waiting to be woken up. We need software written and interfaces designed for classes of products we can't even imagine yet.

So we need kids to grow up and choose the very, very hard work of learning to bend technology to their will. We need them to believe they can make careers out of it.

And we certainly need them to believe that when they get there, they won't be surrounded by assholes.

When a kid shows up sharing their work, we ought to circle around them and hoist them on our shoulders. They're choosing the career that will make our lives better one day. They're choosing the career that will broaden our hiring pools one day. They're, blessedly, choosing tech over drugs, drink, violence and investment banking.

When a teenager comes shuffling along, awkwardly holding up his or her project for our scrutiny, take a moment and see if there's any experience of your own that you can offer to help them on their journey. If there isn't, move along quietly and let the mentors do their thing, eh?

Young folks: I don't know a lot, but if you want career advice or tech advice or just someone to talk to, I'm [email protected].

[kyro]

That blog article was one of the stupidest things I've ever read.

I never got the encouragement or support to pursue my hobbies at a young age, whether from parents or friends, and would've killed to have a community like this that could've praised me and pushed me forward.

To accuse a kid mentioning the fact that he's 14 in his submission title as being manipulative really reflects on how out of touch you are with the way humans operate. A kid his age is looking to show off his work, proud that he's not wasting his time on Power Rangers and Nerf guns, putting his focus and attention to furthering his meaningful hobbies. You encourage that, not dismiss him.

Time and time again, it's just remarkable to me how socially inept the lot of you are. When your child comes up to you and exclaims "Daddy, Daddy! Look what I've done!", you sure as hell aren't going to say "Heh, yeah, I did that too, but I was younger."

[biot]

And how is a response of "That's pretty good for a 14 year old" of any help? If the critique should not take into account the age of the creator, then why should the request for the critique mention it? Shouldn't everyone who shows initiative and a willingness to learn be encouraged through respectful and civil feedback, regardless of whether they're 14 or 40?

[mhurron]

We're not these children's daddies though, are we? Did you run up to every adult expecting praise? Did they give it to you?

This is a group of, by and large, professionals. They are going to look at it in a critical light. If you want critical feedback, this is the forum to show it to. If you want coddling and nothing but positive reinforcement, stick with your parents, teachers and friends.

[ceol]

Great post, but... Power Rangers and Nerf guns? At 14? You might be off by 4 or 5 years. ;)

I'm not sure what about the programming/tech community fosters this culture of wanting to one-up someone who comes along with their work. It's even sadder when they try to one-up a child.

[vishnumenon]

As the author of the "ugly and short-sighted essay" in question, I want to just mention that I meant no hard feelings to anyone of any age, and tried hard to critique the behavior, not the person, Sorry if it came across as ugly. However, I stand by my opinion. I believe that there are plenty of other places these teens can go for blanket approval and yes-men, such as friends and family. HN is, to me, reserved for unbiased and fair commentary. As an aside, I think everyone's post should be considered carefully and encouraged; however, it shouldn't be based on age. Also, in response to those who raised comments about how Mozart's age was relevant to his accomplishments, I must say that in our day and age, teens making apps is hardly that noteworthy anymore. Yes, it is impressive, but not exceptionally so.

Lastly, why exactly was my original post killed? What happened to it? I may not understand HN fully, but I thought something that fostered a good discussion would be kept. I can't even find the post anymore! Would it have stayed up if I had said I was 16?

[goostavos]

Would you post the link here? I would be interesting in reading your specific arguments.

The only issue I really take with the "I'm 14 and check out my first [x]," is that some of them feel a little suspect. Hell, I stumbled upon one of the "I'm 15 and.." guys astroturfing his thread. He neglected to change accounts, and so he gave a glowing review about how great the game was, and how awesome the it is that he's doing this at his age... all from the same account he used to post the link. When I pointed this out to him, everything was quickly deleted.

Maybe I'm letting one bad apple spoil everything, but I feel that some percentage of the "I'm young, check out this really mediocre, yet ad supported thing I made" are in fact, just some older guy's weekend passive income experiment.

[jasonlotito]

Their is a difference between being polite and offering mature and considerate criticism. I believe your article used the word manipulative to describe the use of age in the title. The irony was most likely lost on you.

I could critique the word choice by saying that using that word suggests that the author is being dishonest and deceitful. Manipulative, while technically correct in the abstract, is not necessarily accurate when one considers that the intent might merely to have been to provide context. At the same time using the word manipulative brings along baggage you might not intend. Manipulative implies intent on the part of the person doing the manipulation.

I could also critique your use of the word in another way (and,as it so happens, the way you used it). Keep in mind, this is still technically correct.

Your use of the word manipulative is deceitful. Your use of the word suggests you know intent, and your use of the word attempts to do what you accuse the the original posters of doing: attempting to manipulate the reader by framing the argument as one against deceitful, manipulative, and by extension, distrustful young people. Words are powerful, and your word choice demonstrates that, at the very least, you either have no clue, or your a vile, deceitful individual.

Both methods of critique are valid. One addresses the problem, the other addresses the person. Both are unbiased and fair criticisms, but only one is polite.

We, as a community should strive to encourage. This is not any where close to blanket approval or being yes men. But do NOT for a minute think that good, helpful criticism is simply unbiased and fair. It is not.

[joshmlewis]

I'm 19, and I can give credit to a couple forums (The Web Squeeze and Forrst) and Hacker News for making me successful. If it weren't for a handful of people out of the buckets of everyone, I wouldn't have had the encouragement or motivation to be where I am today. I skipped college, and am cofounding my second company now and leading a team of talented people. I would have never guessed I'd be doing that..even two years ago. If it weren't for you guys and other forums giving me critique, criticism, and encouragement, who knows where I'd be. I've learned soo much from HN, it's ridiculous, but it has helped me in more ways than I can acknowledge.

Anyone can be an encouragement to someone like a younger me, but a lot of people don't. The ones who do however can really make a difference in peoples lives.

[gfodor]

Congrats on your success. One piece of advice: you can further reduce the chance that you have blind spots due to your skipping of college (which you almost certainly do) by slicing off some time to go through Coursera classes, particularly ones that are a bit far afield and seem like a waste of time. People your age are so damn lucky :)

The thing about college is it forces exposure to stuff you'd never see otherwise. A lot of it is irreplaceable but more and more of it is thanks to sites like these.

[danilocampos]

Wow, mazal tov! This my favorite story I've read here. Congratulations on skipping college and getting right into the meat of your career.

[ddunkin]

How about we leave age/sex/race out of it all and accept them into the community as peers and equals?

I'm all about encouragement, but if we treat them differently because of age, we are just sheltering them from the real world (the Internet hardly counts there, I know). The Internet may not be the safest place to be taught how to accept criticism, but it is a lot easier to take (and more productive) when the attacks aren't personal and instead directed at an app.

[danilocampos]

> How about we leave age/sex/race out of it all and accept them into the community as peers and equals?

How about because it's not that simple? Being a teenager is fraught with insecurity, loneliness and the perception of being misunderstood. Lots of their maturity is still cooking.

The teen years are also very formative. So if we can take an extra moment to give them the right nudge early in their trajectory, the final outcome of that tiny investment of time could be huge.

If things about a shared project are crappy, that's worth mentioning, of course. That can and should be done in a way that's constructive and encouraging, though.

I don't like the idea of a community that's too self-important to indulge the ambitious fragility of youth.

[anu_gupta]

> but if we treat them differently because of age

So, to set up some obvious strawmen, you're ok with child labour? Or child soldiers? You're against laws preventing children from working more than x hours a week, or the age of consent?

Of course we treat them differently because of age. They haven't had the time or the exposure to "toughen" them up - and (based on my own life), at that age they're quite possibly shy, insecure, nervous and unsure of their place in the world. So yes, of course they get treated differently.

I'm not proposing an unquestioning "Wow, you're totally the best" attitude. But I am saying that one doesn't shit all over a kid just because one can.

[davidw]

Why not be supportive and friendly to everyone? I always find the "say it to their face" rule is a good one for formulating even negative comments. Rather than channeling your inner comic book guy, it helps you think of how to state something unpleasant in a constructive, polite way.

[danilocampos]

Absolutely.

But it's worth making a special effort for the young. As I told a teen poster below:

Someone helping me with a project is nice. Someone helping you with a project is an investment in the future. My neuroplasticity wanes with every passing year. Your mind remains limber. I am encumbered by obligations and debts, limiting my flexibility. You have infinitely more options.

Helping you is just a better bet than helping me. You're still on the launchpad, fuel tank still full. If there's something simple, like an encouraging comment or a thoughtful correction, that can be done to help you meet a wonderful trajectory, we should absolutely do it.

[luisivan]

I can't agree more.

I started my first project, Asturix, a Linux distribution, at age 12. I have found all kind of complications, most of them related with being young.

I live in Spain, where there are a lot of prejudices against youth. Also, the educational system here doesn't empower any "21 century" value such as creativity or inspiration. Fortunately, the situation is changing thanks to the media and other young entrepreneurs and I are starting to be famous in Spain.

On the other hand, working and studying in Spain at the same time is really, really, really hard. Oh, and we have a youth unemployment rate of 54%.

Right now I'm 17 and have founded a couple companies, what has been really hard due to legal issues - creating a company in Spain being underage is practically illegal. I have also started an incubator for hackers from 12 to 18 so they can create their projects in a easier way.

This is a beautiful age for discovering your passion, but if people screw you out it can be a difficult one.

The talent is there, but we have to let it grow.

[lifeisstillgood]

Memo to self:

Make mentoring site (hackernewsmentor.com) Where old and weary can openly agree certain SLAs With the young and enthusiastic

If more of us see it publically more of us will be encouraged to answer a months worth of questions on perl

As for me - I could have done with a mentor not for technical issues - but for the life and career choices I made badly twenty years ago - but I would only have take. Advice from someone whom I technically respected.

[jneen]

I'm in. Let me know when you get started with this, I'll help build it.

[Cogito]

Should age be included in a post's title? In most cases, the age can be disclosed in the comments without losing any information, and in the process removing any 'negative' connotations.

I posted something on the thread that started this whole dance a day or so ago, however it probably merits further expansion.

Most arguments that are 'pro' age disclosure boil down to "We should treat younger members of the community differently". This comes in many forms, like how we should be supportive, how we should mentor the next generation, and how teenagers are often insecure.

I agree with them, at least in general.

Arguments 'against' age disclosure have a few flavours; some say that we should treat posts based on merit, that we should not discriminate based on age, but mostly it comes down to "Posts with the age in the title are 'gaming' the system (purposefully or not)" and the meta-argument that such posts encourage talking about community instead of the post.

I agree with this side as well.

The thing is, placing your age in the title of your post is link-baity. It may be unintentional or it may be coolly calculated, but in most cases if you remove that piece of information the post title is entirely uninteresting.

So we have two types of posts to consider. The first are those posts where the age of the person involved contributes to how interesting the post is to HN. A completely fabricated example: "12 year-old entrepreneur youngest funded by YC".

The second type of post are those where the age of the person involved contributes to how the HN community responds to the post. A young developer's first app would fall into this category.

In the first case, I believe this is useful information to have in the post title. In the second this is useful information, however I do not believe it is useful in the post title. For these posts, I would much rather see the age included as a comment on the post.

In any post that use of age in the title gets called out for being 'link-baity', 'manipulative' or 'gaming the system' the main counterargument is that knowing the age helps the community know how to respond to the post. The age can be removed from the post title, and placed in the comments, addressing both major concerns.

[edit] improved summary.

[DanBC]

I'm pretty sure that you do not think the correct response to a title including an age is to rant at the poster, to be rude and aggressive.

It's possible to express dissatisfaction with a title and to encourage better posting habits without being a jerk. I agree with your summary.

The problem isn't with HN being jerks to young people. The problem is with HN being jerks to anyone.

[badatmath]

I for one think that they are "gaming the system," but I don't see that as a bad thing. It's great that these kids are entrepreneurial enough to proactively push their product. It's clearly a very effective way to title a post, and they aren't lying or doing anything unethical, so what's the problem? All I know is, if I was 14, I would definitely post my age, and I sure as hell wouldn't feel guilty about it.

[jacquesm]

It's not just the blog article. It's also the attitude of people that will berate a youngster for being young and going out on a limb to show what they've made and making the mistake of telling us their age. That age thing is not a qualifier of pride, it's a guide to the mental state and the amount of experience the poster has. What amazes me most is that after seeing how one young developer gets treated that the next one still dares to post at all.

Danilocampos is exactly right. As far as career advice or tech advice, if you think I can contribute regardless of age feel free to contact me as well, [email protected] . I can't promise to always be immediately available but I'll do my best.

[devonbarrett]

As a 17 year old, I disagree, regardless of age, if someone creates or does something that is considered impressive, they should receive credit based upon that - not because of an arbitrary number that supposedly relates to their ability.

[danilocampos]

Then I shall congratulate you for being well-encouraged and thick skinned in your world already. For everyone else lacking such good fortune, though, it would be nice if we could err on the side of being welcoming, rather than hostile.

[kappaloris]

it relates to experience which in turn relates to ability.

someone who is 32yo has had the opportunity to gather at least double your experience.

so being young does have a meaning in 'scaling down' what is expected from you, at least as long we're posting on a friendly news website.

[ktrgardiner]

I think announcing your young age alongside your project is important because it opens up more opportunities for others to guide you and help fuel your passion and talent. Without the age, people will assume that the creator is old enough to know what they enjoy and what they want to pursue. But with the age, you'll have people with more experience saying "Since you obviously like X, you should look into Y and Z. Here are some great resources on those topics." Advice like that is invaluable and we should encourage scenarios that result in it.

[ruswick]

The issue is that most posts that announce one's age don't result in guidance. They result in a chorus of "good jobs" that, although nice, don't offer any real constructive advice.

I've always postulated that one would get more actionable advice and sincere criticism if they did not include their age, and that age merely lowers the bar and dilutes the value of the discussion.

Including one's age might result in comments that make the poster feel better, but they won't make him code better.

[danilocampos]

Yeah, this is a really important point. Part of good mentorship is exposing unknown unknowns. You've got way, way more of those the younger you are.

[qzxt]

If this is in relation to http://vishnumenon.com/2013/01/21/im-35-months-old-and-i-mad... then I think you miss the point. I agree with the author of that and it is the most common sense post I've read, so far, regarding this issue. The reality is people posting their age doesn't simply mean "I am new at this. I know you guys aren't. I want you to check it out and give me encouragement and guidance." Simultaneously the people throwing out the "age is irrelevant" argument simply miss the point, also. I'm 19 and I've been programming for as long as I can remember starting with my shitty commodore64 hand-me-down. Along the years I have received much criticism and help and am immensely grateful to the people who took the time out to answer every question I had, trivial and otherwise - and believe me, there were plenty of them. However the idea of constructive criticism on HN, and sadly, in the hacker community at large is ironically more political than logical. "Criticism" seems to be code for "I'm smarter than you and I'll be damned if I don't make sure you know it." The hostility towards, not just kids, but people's projects in general borders on the pathological and that's what needs to be addressed. I wholeheartedly agree that kids who are building fun projects do need that nudge and that encouragement to go deeper down the rabbit hole, however we should indeed distinguish between encouragement and patting on the back. The problem is the risk of creating a Hollywoood mentality (Hollywood may be the bastion of acting but really most people are more attracted to the prospects of fame than actual acting). We need to give them encouragement that lets them enjoy the process, not just massaging their egos, and moreover we need to get them to enjoy constructive criticism and see it not as "boo-hoo they didn't like my stuff" but as "hmm I never thought about that." The reality is, the poisonous, know-it-all, thinly veiled political nature of our culture doesn't provide this.

[danilocampos]

That essay called mentioning age "manipulative," which is easily the most jackasstic thing I've seen on the subject. Whatever valid point might have been there was lost in the cold dismissiveness of the author's attitude.

[trishume]

I'm 16 and Things I've written have made the front page twice, both times without mentioning my age. As a teenager, it feels really good to make the front page or #1 with no "omg they're young" bonus points.

Granted, it is encouraging to get bonus up votes for being young and achieving something.

[justjimmy]

There is a reason why there is an age of consent, why there is a youth criminal system, why there are age limits.

Some of you clearly lack empathy.

[mmanfrin]

Two cents: I worry that we run the risk of acquiring that awful trend of reddit's to append some personal relation to every post (e.g. "My Brother did this...", "My SO made me a cake", etc) which has become a terribly abused trope.

The user account of the 14 year old kid who posted the Show HN that prompted this was a brand new account. The App Author was listed under a different name than the user account seemed to suggest. It screamed 'manipulation' to me.

I'm all for encouraging younger developers, but at a certain point you have to step back and evaluate whether we're promoting things based on merit or a sense of communal nepotism.

[wuster]

Agreed. I always make the time of day to talk to high school or college age kids aspiring to be in engineering or the sciences. Paying it forward if you will, because I got the same help when I was younger.

[_b8r0]

I'm all for people shipping. Age isn't really a part of it. What I'm not all for is people creating an account, posting the thing they're looking to promote and only posting in that thread - otherwise completely disengaged with the HN community.

You can argue that lurkers form part of that community. My counterpoint would be that if you create a specific account and post the thing you're trying to promote in the first 10 minutes, you haven't lurked enough.

Yes I know you can lurk without an account, but to reach the stage where that's considered acceptable you have to travel through if they felt they couldn't register an account for more than 5 minutes, if they felt they couldn't comment and plenty of other ifs, yet somehow they can create an account and post what they're promoting in 10 minutes, then only interact with people in their thread?

Young people should be encouraged. Aaron Swartz was 14 when he worked on RSS. But being young doesn't give you a free pass at being a spammer, and that's what kicked this whole thing off.

[pekk]

Other people shouldn't get encouragement and guidance and tolerance for their newness? Suggesting that you are an x years old child prodigy has become a cheap way of getting front page. If we are going to be nice to new projects we should be nice to them regardless of the claimed age of the author.

[mcknz]

I didn't read this as exclusionary -- it's just a shorthand way of saying how much experience one has. Someone who is 35 could easily say "I have [X] number of years using [technique/technology]."

If someone doesn't indicate age or experience, the default would be to treat submissions or projects as the marketplace would.

[ScottWhigham]

Getting young people into science and technology is the single greatest professional duty any technologist has.

What? I don't understand this at all. The "single greatest professional duty any technologist" has is unique to that "technologist". If, for example, I'm a 23yo kid who just graduated uni and in my first job, do you think for a second that I give a #$(* about "getting young people into science and technology"? Of course not. I'm so busy trying to figure basic life out that I don't have time for that sort of thing.

If I'm a 33yo dad who wants to start my own business, I don't care one whit about 'getting young people into science and technology' b/c, between working 60 hours a week and changing my kids' diapers, I'm sleeping.

Good for teens - glad for them - but this statement is just silly.

[BlackJack]

I'm a 19 year old and when I got into college I remember thinking that I would love to interview prospective students after I graduated.

Maybe you don't care about mentoring young people, but there are certainly many, many people who care a lot about that.

[dragos2]

I read a couple of days ago a blog post written by a 17 years old in which he was stating a rather interesting fact. He was saying he prefers to omit mentioning his age on forums and discussion boards (such as HN) because he wants to be critiqued for his work regardless of his age.

I found that to be incredibly accurate. Most of the kids want to just show-off their projects, but there are still a lot of them who want genuine critique.

So, if you want to get real opinions about your project and you post on HN or reddit, you should put on your big boy pants.