Ask HN: Any advice for someone getting out of prison after 18 years?

[syedkarim]

I met this person when I was in high school. He made a huge mistake in his early twenties and has almost finished paying for it (bank robber). He gets out of prison next week. I've kept in touch with him through letters and have been telling him that his only chance of financial independence is through writing code.

He's very familiar with business logic, as he was the MS Access dba for the prison factory. And about six months ago I sent him a few conceptual programming books that you all suggested he read. He paid for his own master's degree (distance learning program in organizational dynamics), and even started a phd--though prison officials would not let him conduct the necessary research to complete it (and he ran out of money).

He's about 40, has no family, and virtually no friends (outside of prison). Army veteran, so he has health insurance covered. I think he has about $1000 saved. I'll be giving him a laptop, smartphone, and mobile hotspot. He won't be able to leave Indiana for a few years (terms of supervised release).

Would really appreciate everyone's thoughts and advice. I'll compile all of it and make a list for him. Thanks.

[SwellJoe]

I'm seeing a lot of "he got what he deserved" and "he's gonna have to wash dishes, nobody will hire him" kinds of comments here. This is one of the really broken elements of US culture. We have a culture of revenge and shaming, rather than healing and allowing reparations. This is why we have the highest prison population per-capita in the world; higher than China, higher than Russia, higher than Iran, higher than Cuba, higher than any other place you might think of as "repressive" or a "prison state" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcerat...).

People change. Prisons make some folks worse, this is true. But, many people come out of prison with no desire other than to lead an honest life. One of my best friends over the past year or so is a felon; spent several years in prison on a drug-related crime (a serious drug-related crime, not a little weed in his pocket). When I went to Mexico for a month, he's the person I trusted the keys to my storage unit (with tens of thousands of dollars in gear) to. Why hold a mistake made in someone's youth over their head for the rest of their lives? How does that make a better, safer, more peaceful society?

[rdouble]

The "nobody will hire him" comments may just be realistic, as most jobs, even low level jobs, screen out felons. Even jobs one would think are amenable to felons, like oil roughnecks in North Dakota, are now staffed by large agencies who weed out felons. These days it's doubly tough for ex-cons because they are competing with millions of unemployed people who don't have a felon rap sheet.

If he's really interested in tech, one thing he could do is try to get involved with an organization that is religious related, such as making a church website, or helping out with an Access database. This might sound strange since vengance-oriented churches are so popular these days, but the Midwest still has many liberal church organizations into forgiveness and second chances and that sort of thing. In Indiana, I would suggest looking at Quaker oriented organizations, maybe even Earlham College.

[rayiner]

> We have a culture of revenge and shaming, rather than healing and allowing reparations.

I think you're spot-on. Revenge and shaming is a part of healing, of course, because it helps the community: 1) vent its frustration at a lawbreaker; 2) send a signal that such actions won't be tolerated. But we've gone from a "healthy amount of revenge" (so to speak) to such extreme punishments that reintegration becomes nearly impossible. To the community, someone who get 18 years for a crime must be a truly irredeemable person, right? To the imprisoned, a society that punishes him so harshly cannot be something that will welcome him back, right?

Prison sentences keep going up because recidivism is high, and the amount of crime in the U.S. is dramatically higher than in other western countries. But I think longer prison sentences make both of those things worse. Recidivism might go down if weren't nearly impossible for felons to re-integrate into society.

[jlarocco]

If I'm hiring for a job, all other things being equal, why choose the felon? It's possible, maybe even likely, that the person was reformed in prison. But if I choose the non-felon, then I don't even have to worry about it.

To be honest, though, it depends a heavily on what the person's crime was. Do I care that a guy got caught with a pound of weed? No. Do I care that he embezzled from his employer? Definitely. A guy who killed his cheating wife isn't a big concern, but I could never trust a guy who "snapped" and assaulted some random person.

[1337biz]

Wouldn't some freelancing sites be a good option? If he gets familiar with some basic PHP skills, he could at least get a start with real life coding challenges. People who hire on elance or other freelance sites don't pay much attention to personal details as long as he gets some decent reviews.

[fearless]

I still don't think nonviolent drug crimes are the same as bank robbery. When you commit a bank robbery with a loaded firearm, you're telling society you have no problem taking a person's life for a little money. If people change, why is the recidivism rate for felons over 50%? And those are just the ones who get caught. Again, I'm speaking strictly to violent crimes here. Nonviolent/drug offenders should be treated very differently.

[jules]

I don't think most other cultures even have a word for "felon".

[oz]

Firstly, thank you for your humanity.

There's a guy on Quora named Michael Santos that spent 25 years in prison for drug dealing. He was released last August. While incarcerated, he got his degree, got married, and wrote a book. He has written extensively on the prison experience, and how one can come out on top. He's also quite willing to answer any questions:

http://www.quora.com/Michael-Santos-4

You may have to sign up to Quora to read his answers, but it's totally worth it, if just for his perspectives alone.

Once again, I salute you for what you're doing. I don't know if you've seen the movie 'The Shawshank Redemption', but there's something very "Andy Dufresne" about what you're doing. Through your humanity, you're giving this man dignity. Salaam.

[codezero]

Wow, thanks for posting about Michael here, I've met him and he's an awesome guy, and he's a very driven and intelligent person.

If you don't want to create a Quora account, you can probably contact Michael on his website as well: http://michaelsantos.com/

I haven't checked recently, but he had been including some of his Quora content on his blog as well.

[alt2319]

I'm a convicted federal felon. To top it off, it's a computer fraud conviction involving a former employer.

I used to think I'd never even be able to flip burgers for pay. I'm actually probably right - McDonalds would never hire me. But since my conviction I've worked a decent string of IT jobs.

First, he needs to understand that there are a lot of people with a criminal record. I've met plenty of people with criminal records (mostly DUI, fraud, and drug charges) that have been able to find normal work, raise kids, volunteer, etc. Every time I tell someone my story, they tell me that their gainfully employed brother / uncle / co-worker / etc. has a criminal record that I used to think would force someone into washing dishes for the rest of their career.

Second, he needs to make a clean break with anyone shady. I've had tempting inquiries and offers from friends-of-friends. He needs to find new friends. Take up a hobby, join a church, go to user groups and meetups, go back to school, etc. Something to find a new set of friends that will occupy his time with things that won't land him in trouble.

He should be able to leave Indiana, especially if he has work lined up. I'm a little unclear on that since I wasn't in the state system, but I think he can be somehow transferred to another jurisdiction's probation office or remotely report in.

I don't agree that his only chance is writing code, but it's certainly not a bad approach. I'd particularly suggest mobile apps. It's not steady work, but jobs on Fiverr.com could bring in some cash while he looks. There's also affiliate blogging / Pinterest Pinning. I could probably sit in a public library, pinning Amazon links a few hours a day and earn enough to get by.

[syedkarim]

"I could probably sit in a public library, pinning Amazon links a few hours a day and earn enough to get by."

--Really? I would have assumed that mTurk would have dropped the floor on this type of work.

[qes]

Long time lurker, created an account just to add a comment here. Your friend's situation hits close to home as I spent most of my 20's in prison and am a software developer.

He can move forward and be reasonably successful despite his felony record. There are plenty of people in the world who will be willing to look past that and give him a chance, but to be balanced, on the flip side there are equally many who will not. It saddens me to hear he has little family, it is hard to underestimate the value of personal support to a recent ex-con.

Job hunting can be difficult. Many organizations will flat out not consider you because of the felony record. I had good luck with smaller companies, where you met the boss and had the chance to make a personal impression, where I was given the opportunity to explain why I was sent to prison and why the employer should take what is admittedly a bigger chance on hiring me.

But here's the kicker with software development. I was already good at it before prison. It was no challenge to demonstrate some level of skill that outweighed the uncertainty of hiring a felon. In your friend's case, this may or may not work as well.

It's great that he had the chance to work with computers and Access in prison. I had similar opportunities and in fact learned .Net during my stay, letting me come back into the job market with relevant, polished skills.

My first job out of prison was the type that gives you plenty of fodder for The Daily WTF, but it was a job and it was much easier to get the second job than the first. If your friend can get his foot in the door - at any job - he'll have the opportunity to prove himself and may find that the disadvantage of a felonious past fades quickly into the background. My experience has been that if you can actually do useful work as a programmer and show this to potential employers, you will quickly get past the felony tag. A programmer that can produce is still a hot commodity at least in my area (and Indiana is likely no different).

[hndude]

You said you were a good software developer before prison - was your crime a white collar one? Do you mind sharing what you were convicted for?

[eduardordm]

First, a rant: I always get shocked about how the US justice system works, where punishing (and revenge) is obviously more important than protecting humans. He should have been released as soon as he posed no threat to others. If the US keeps its current course there will be more people inside prisons than outside of them in the future.

He certainly has a lot of expectations. I can only imagine the pressure he is putting upon himself right now. My only advice is for him to find the first regular job he can. That will give him more time to learn programming (if he wants to do that) and release a bit of the pressure to succeed fast.

[Zimahl]

I'll agree with the first regular job. He's been socially isolated for 18 years and probably has very little ability to function in the real world. A job at Pizza Hut or Starbucks will put some money in his pocket, get him self-sufficient, and interacting with people. He'll be able to rent an apartment and then he can spend time coding and learning in his off hours.

While he's doing that he's going to have to hit the pavement and find someone willing to take a chance on him. That will be the tough part. He needs to build a resume. Contracting might be a good way to start.

Lots of luck to him. Have him start a blog so we can follow how it's going. I'd find the insights into the prison system and his work toward the future very interesting, if he's will to share.

[hvs]

I'm all for challenging the current US justice system, but I'm not sure why "posed no threat" is your only standard for who should be in prison. He did actually violate the property rights of other people. Prison, in mine and many others' opinions, is not just about rehabilitation.

[testimoney]

Prisons is not only about threat to others, its also about punishment. Someone could maybe kill a whole family, then after a year in prison have an "enlightenment", become religious, have regrets about the killing, and knowing himself that he won't do it again, he still deserves his full prison sentence!

[newbie12]

You don't know the details of the crime. For a sentence that long, it likely involved a firearm or some type of physical violence. Protecting the public probably meant locking this guy up until he reached middle age.

Having said that, now that he's paid his debt, it does seem like the system should do more to help him return to productive society.

[kjackson2012]

He shouldn't have committed the crime in the first place. End of story. If he knew that bank robbing was a crime and he committed it anyway, he deserves whatever punishment was meted out to him. People could (or may) have been killed over his greed for money.

That being said, I have no problems with the notion of helping ex-cons try to turn their lives around, after they've paid their debt to society. I am a supporter of Delancey Street organization in SF, which helps ex-cons reintegrate with society by giving them jobs in the moving industry, cooking, selling Christmas trees, etc.

[fearless]

The US prison system is messed up, but mostly with regard to nonviolent/drug offenders. I am very libertarian, but I don't think this is a valid criticism in this case. Robbing a bank is not "making a mistake once". Buying coke or shoplifting is making a mistake. Bank robbery is a premeditated, violent, serious crime, and society is right to punish it severely. If you're committing bank robbery, you're likely also committing lots of other crimes: assault, threats, criminal confinement, fleeing police, etc.

[kbenson]

> First, a rant: I always get shocked about how the US justice system works, where punishing (and revenge) is obviously more important than protecting humans.

A simplistic view of how the currently policy such came about will probably do little to help change it, as arguments against it from that point will not sway people who don't believe that's the cause.

Possible other reasons someone might favor longer prison sentences (by no means exhaustive): * Crime deterrence through harsher penalties. * The perception that these are inherently bad people, and should be kept away from society for as long as possible. * Corporate/union entities that benefit from a larger prison system.

Unless you target the actual reason someone holds a view, it's hard to argue against it effectively (but not impossible, you can just provide so many negatives that whatever positives they think they get are overwhelmed).

[chank]

Remember, the US prison system is for profit. So that probably had something to do with his lengthy term.

[tesmar2]

First off, great job in being involved in this guy's life. He really needs people like you to help him get on his feet and recover.

I'd say introduce him to a recruiter who has a lot of connections and can get something going for him. If that doesn't pan out, perhaps some biz owner here on HN might hire him.

[newbie12]

Wow this is naive. Nobody is going to hire a felon parolee for anything other than menial work. I don't think there are recruiters for washing dishes.

The only hope, as the OP says, is to figure out a way to market a tech skill directly, or to start something on his own.

[pbj]

"and have been telling him that his only chance of financial independence is through writing code"

There are tons of trade skills that he could learn quickly at a local community college. Plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics, hvac repair, etc.. can make seriously good money and his felony would likely not be as big of a factor either. Especially if he went into business himself.

[Irregardless]

His felony wouldn't be a big deal for employers who would potentially be sending him into people's homes on a regular basis?

I have to strongly disagree with that one.

[SwellJoe]

A good friend of mine is a felon and a union master electrician. He makes a decent living, when there's work, and his past doesn't seem to make a difference to his employers. There are definitely many paths one can take; code is a really good one, let's be honest, but it's not the only one.

[tworats]

Unfortunately getting a "job" will be difficult with a prison record, but consulting could be a good path. If you can find someone to sub-contract jobs to him he can get started (he might have to take a low rate to start with), and once he establishes himself he'll be able to win new deals himself.

As he establishes himself it'll probably be worthwhile to create a company that he can build a reputation around - that way his personal background becomes less visible.

[jcurbo]

Since he's a vet, have him talk to the VA. They have this http://vetsuccess.gov/ and especially this http://www.benefits.va.gov/vow/ Also see if he has service-related disability and thus can use VA Vocational Rehab. http://www.vba.va.gov/bln/vre/ Even if he doesn't have a disability rating now, if he can trace something back to his time in the military he can still get a rating and be eligible. With the skillset he has they ought to be able to help him out somehow. I'm not sure how the prison service will tie in, but it's worth a shot.

Along a similar vein he might try his local American Legion or VFW chapter for assistance.

[illektr1k]

Step 1) Get a laptop

Step 2) Start a GitHub account

Step 3) Write code

I care a lot more about what people have created than what they have done in their past lives.

[dsego]

... profit?

[impostervt]

Perhaps a freelancing site, such as oDesk? He can build up some basic references doing trivial technical work. He won't make much money as there will be a lot of competition, but many recruiters would rather hire from within the US if the cost made sense.

[newbie12]

Or, he might be able to use freelancing online to establish a working relationship with a company that would hire him directly. It is just tough, the money is terrible and I think this guy is going to need more structure than working from home will provide. Self-starting is hard for anyone and our friend has had every minute regulated for the past 18 years.

[rpfennin]

I represent one of the largest venture capital funds in the state of Indiana with a substantial number of investments in tech-focused companies. I would be more than happy to speak with you and your friend and see if we might be able to help him.

[syedkarim]

That's very kind of you. How can I contact you? My email address is on my profile page.

[jack-r-abbit]

Even with a masters degree, he's certainly going to have a smaller pool of job opportunities than a non-felon just by the fact he is a felon. But that doesn't mean there is not a bunch of opportunities for him. I've worked with several felons at different places. Programmers and IT. Not every company cares about that. Just like not every company cares to have you pass a drug test. But he should probably forget about any jobs in the financial sector as they tend to be pretty strict on hiring felons (and being a bank robber is probably a double whammy). My only advice would be to be totally up front about his past and don't let the "no thank yous" get him down.

However, I would say that he might be facing almost as much trouble getting over the fact that he is 40 with very little industry experience. Honestly, this might actually be worse to some companies. I have no idea what he had to work with in prison, but 18 years away from real world tech might have him slightly behind the curve. Maybe my perception of technology in prison is not accurate.

[syedkarim]

His technology-paradigm is definitely not a modern one. For example, he doesn't really understand open source software; just the concept of it--and how good it can be.

[d0m]

I would tell him congrats for going through all this with a positive attitude and I wish him the best of luck in his programming career. As for financial independence, may I suggest that he start on elance with a very cheap price to get experience and build a reputation. A beautiful portfolio website really help (At first there would no "past project"; Just a beautiful splash page offering services with X years of experience; then best projects could be added as they are finished.) Also, it's easier to get paid more and be taken if you get specialized in marketing/SEO/business strategy. It's very hard to compete on elance with a psd->html 8$/hours. Lastly, may I suggest that he assist some weekly tech event in his city.. if you say he's got few friends, that would be a good way to meet people sharing his own passion.

[mindcrime]

There was a recent discussion[1] on Reddit, about how a guy with a criminal record could get a job and what-not. It was a somewhat different situation, but I expect some of the discussion there might be applicable here as well.

[1]: http://www.reddit.com/r/jobs/comments/16jqz3/i_have_a_crimin...

My own comment included the sentiment that having a criminal background doesn't mean you'll never get a job (even a good job), but that it definitely makes it harder, so you have to find ways to compensate for that. I mean, for at least certain classes of crimes, I'd hire someone with a criminal record, and I know there are other people out there who feel the same way.

[rdl]

He's going to have a lot of employment difficulties due to a felony record.

I'd probably suggest stuff like online task markets or contracting, particularly on low-sensitivity stuff. The other thing that might work would be creating software/services for sale directly.

[dfansteel]

He seems like a real self starter. If he has an aptitude for programming I'd recommend getting into mobile development as an independent contractor.

I'm not saying it would be easy. I started teaching myself iOS at the end of my sophomore year (4 years ago). In six months I felt comfortable accepting contracts off of elance. By the time I graduated I was employed full time as a contractor. It's just gotten better from there.

Mobile is one place where your past doesn't really matter. You either can or you can't. And your past doesn't matter much.

[syedkarim]

Why/how is mobile any different from regular web development?

[mileszs]

If he is near Indianapolis, it could help to get involved in the local hacker scene. We have a pretty decent number of meetings and the like he could attend. See the calendar at http://indyhackers.org.

I like to think we're pretty merit-based here, but it is a largely conservative state (though this city can be pretty "blue" compared to its surroundings), so I could be wrong. Knowing people is a significant portion of the battle, and just showing up to events can go a long way.

[syedkarim]

Unfortunately, he will be starting out in Michigan City at a halfway house. But maybe Indianapolis is someplace he can transfer to? Are there any other hacker hubs in Indiana? West Lafayette? Valparaiso?

[retroafroman]

Just a thought I had, and maybe someone can help me, but if a convicted felon has a hard time getting an apartment, can they start an LLC (or any other business entity) and then have the business rent the apt? I'm assuming the management would still like to see see financial history, so probably an aged LLC or corp would be best?