Ask HN: Zillow is trying to acquire my app + domain for "a couple hundred bucks", advice?

[auston]

So, I might get razzed for this - but I figured I'd come to a place where I would receive useful insight on my situation.

Dilemna

Zillow wants to buy the domain that a website (optimized for iPhone which uses their API) I've created resides on for literally "a couple hundred bucks".

This seems like an easy way to take advantage of the work I've put in to building the domain/ranking.

Additionally, they've threatened to cut of API access if I do not comply with their wishes.

Data

It's located at http://izillow.net

Since launch the site has received ~50,000 visitors + links from techcrunch, apple, google (appengine) and numerous blogs + recognition in the New York Times.

(also ~90k pageviews)

It's in compliance with Zillow's TOS & they've threatened to cut of API access if I do not comply with their wishes.

History

Last year in May I created an iPhone interface for Zillow's "zestimator" - it was all fun and games, got a little bit of blog coverage/mentions & an overall good response. Zillow seemed to be all for it.

Then the New York Times included it in one of it's articles - and Zillow asked me to very simply put the words "unofficial version" and a link at the bottom of the app.

No problem. Done.

Now

Zillow has launched their own iPhone app (which rocks) - but wants me to take down mine and hand over the domain for "a couple hundred bucks".

I dont feel this is fair and they're trying to stiff me with a measely $250. What would you do? What do you suggest? What are your thoughts?

[lbrandy]

Disclaimer: Please don't take my (or anyone's) advice at face value without spending some serious time considering the best option for you.

I can't help but think there's something you aren't telling us, otherwise they've made a colossal error.

Let's look at your absolute worst case scenario. They cut off your API, put you completely out business, and end your app. Let's look at what they are offering you: $250. The worst case scenario + $250. What, exactly, do you have to lose, by rejecting their offer? $250. Put another way: nothing. Absolutely, nothing.

What is their worst case scenario? That you, oh I don't know, post around to bunch of places like Hacker News that they basically strong-armed you mafia style to shut down. Word spreads through dev circles that they are basically screwing their devs and abusing the trust of the dev community. They have to do all kinds of PR damage control.

The entire point of an open API is to attract devs to help spread your brand. If they want to turn around and start screwing the very people who help them, they'll find that dev pool dry very, very quickly.

In other words, the position they've put you in, you have virtually nothing to lose, and they have quite a bit. I'd respond accordingly. Save all their emails. Start working on the "zillow.com screws devs" website. Name your price, and tell them for both your sake, they should accept.

[Retric]

Worst case for zillow:

Since launch the site has received ~50,000 visitors + links from techcrunch, apple, google (appengine) and numerous blogs + recognition in the New York Times.

They let a well known company uses izillow for a while so they may have lost their trade mark by failing to defend it.

PS: It's a huge risk for company's to let others use their brands without defending them. They can get him to change the name or license the use of iZillow, but doing nothing is a really bad idea for them.

[mattmaroon]

I like this. At the worst, they'll probably back off. I would if I were them.

I'd also be sure to get in contact with Zillow's CEO over this. I wouldn't be surprised if the guys at the top have no idea these shenanigans are going on.

[jm4]

This would make sense if he wasn't using their brand name in the domain name. It's not so much that he's got a competing application as it is that he's piggybacking on their branding by using a domain name that's different from their trademarked name by a single letter in front. I'd say he's pretty clearly in wrong on that point and they're being very cool about the whole situation. Plenty of other companies would start things off with a cease and desist. Instead of paying the lawyers to print a nastygram on firm letterhead they've offered him a little money and tried to make things easy.

[akikuchi]

Write them a thoughtful, well-reasoned letter explaining:

1. How as an active member of he developer community, you have enjoyed building useful tools which expand the reach of the Zillow brand.

2. How you have dedicated significant time and energy to this project, on the understanding that they provided the API to encourage enterprising and curious developers such as yourself to find new valuable ways to interact with Zillow.

3. You are a reasonable person, and would be willing to sell the domain for a reasonable amount.

4. What you think is a reasonable amount, and some simple calculations/reasoning supporting this number.

You might even say that you were surprised by the small sum the initially offered, but with the information given I don't think there's any reason to be too offended-they probably just threw something out there to see if it worked. I also think it's quite early to start talking about negative pr campaigns etc. as others are suggesting. That won't get you any extra money, which as I understand it is your goal at this point.

edit- to suggest maybe including something from their "about us" section to describe what you were doing; trying to "help consumers by giving them access" to information.

Also to note, while their tactics aren't particularly subtle or magnanimous, I do believe in giving some benefit of the doubt- especially until after you've seen their response to your thoughtful response.

edit2- in 1.) above, you probably don't want to say you're expanding the "zillow brand"- no reason to help their IP/trademark position. just say something similarly pleasant sounding.

[jyothi]

I somehow feel this wouldn't work in negotiations especially when the other side is not playing fair. When they offered as low as $250 it tells they are playing it mean. All this nice idealistic talk is not going to move a blade.

I would suggest don't work on their sympathy or expect them to value your efforts. They will not. Be ready to lose the meagre amount and play it hard. If you lose, make sure it costs something for them to fix their bargain of $250.

[drewmeyers]

Drew from zillow. I've been in contact with Mr Bunson about this issue. I don’t think that it’s appropriate to discuss our conversation in public, however, I will say that what is described here is not a complete representation of the conversation. He’s welcome to continue to use the API as long as he doesn’t infringe upon our trademark and use our brand name "Zillow" on his website.

[pclark]

why do you care about him infringing on your brand? He's helping you guys out.

[kaiserama]

Honestly I can understand zillow's side here but I'm just curious. Shouldn't the original use of izillow.com been grounds for trademark enforcement? The only thing I think is less than savory is that now, when you have your own iPhone application, you're going after this person and making sure people don't mistake it for an official version.

But like you say, there are details here that have not been disclosed, so I am by no means passing any kind of judgement.

[badger7]

"I don’t think that it’s appropriate to discuss our conversation in public..."

Welcome to the internet. Have a nice stay.

[josefresco]

He's using YOUR API douchbag!

Ok sorry about the douchebag part but come on, what part of YOUR API don't you understand? You need to grow a pair and tell your lawyers they work for you, not the other way around.

If he's using your API, and publicizing your service, what is he supposed to call his app/website?

His new about page would read: "We use an API from a company in which we cannot name, trust us it's really good and you know them, but for legal reasons we can't say who it is."

Yeah that sounds awesome.

[davidg]

Hi, it's David G from Zillow.com,

Auston,

I hope to speak with you about this later today but please update this post and correct the facts here. You have misrepresented your communications with Zillow. I have the e-mail on this; you asked for $250 for the domain. That was not Zillow's offer, it was yours! When Zillow accepted your offer, you rescinded it. Those are the facts.

I look forward to resolving this ASAP - please let Drew know when you are available to take a call on this. As others here have pointed out, we simply cannot allow you to misuse our trademark but you are welcome to continue to host the site.

[auston]

This is accurate.

Surely, I opened my mouth too early, you offered "a couple hundred bucks" - I said $250 would be sufficient, I clicked "send" and then thought - "Oh crap! wait... a minute..." and followed up telling you $250 is unreasonable.

[noonespecial]

As someone who did the trademark dance let me add this. If you deny their offer and try to keep running your site, it will be trivial for them to file a complaint with ICANN and simply confiscate your domain name because of the trademark.

-BUT-

If you immediately switch over to doing something legitimate with that domain, you can keep it indefinitely and there is little they can do about it. Fortunately a criticism/parody site qualifies. I'd be more than ready to turn it into a "zillow screws devs" site.

Personally, I'd counter with a $12,500 offer and hope to settle for around $9500. That really is nothing to them. $250 is nothing but an insult. They must think you're 12. Its just plain bad taste to pair that with a naked threat.

I can't help but think of Monty Burns saying, "hey there young pup, if you give me that fine domain you've got there I'll give you a shiny nickel of your very own!"

[checkwit]

It will cost them around $2000 to file a UDRP complaint. They will most likely win.

[jdavid]

* get a new domain name and

* 301 redirect all request to it FAST

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/URL_redirection#HTTP_status_cod...

[mixmax]

It isn't. If they e-mailed you that they didn't have a problem with it and their API is still accessible there's nothing they can do about it.

It's obvious that since they now have their own iphone app they want yours down, or merged into theirs. You're basically a competitor. And they're trying to buy you out. And their tactic seems fairly obvious: "let's see if we can get the guy to hand ot over for a couple of hundred bucks, if it works fine if it doesn't we'll have to get into real negotiations"

Now you've got to play the negotiation game...

Note: This is just my opinion, and it could of course easily be wrong.

[TomOfTTB]

You put the disclaimer at the end so I won't critcize but what you're giving is bad advice. I quote from the Zillow API Terms of Use...

================================================

Acceptable Use. You agree not to use the Zillow API, Zillow Data, or Zillow Brand & Links in any way that is unlawful, or harms Zillow.com, its service providers, its suppliers, your end users, or any other person. Further, pursuant to Section 10 below, Zillow.com may terminate your use of the Zillow API, Zillow Data and Zillow Brand & Links if and when Zillow.com determines that your use is inappropriate.

================================================

So there is something they can do. Blocking API calls is painfully easy and they've outlined their right to ban anyone they consider to be doing harm to them (which a competitor would clearly qualify as).

To Auston: I do agree that $250 is a really low bid and you might want to engage in a little friendly negotiation but in doing so realize they don't have to give you anything. So when choosing a tactic I'd avoid the hard negotiation and instead try to "charm" more money out of them.

[rms]

$250 is certainly a lowball but their registered trademark for Zillow gives them almost infinite leverage. They can just take your domain if they want to. The sweet spot price is just below what it will cost to sue you for trademark infringement. I'd hope for $5k.

Also, www.izillow.net goes to a different site than izillow.net.

[sgk284]

The thing is, they let him use their site for a while. They even opened a line of communication with him and requested that he include "Unofficial Version" on the site. Their only communication to the poster should have been to stop using their trademark. The fact that they endorsed the site and didn't protect their trademark puts them in a bad spot if they try to leverage their trademark in any way.

[jenmarie]

Don't sell -- certainly not for $250. What cheapskates. You probably know Frink and Barton capitalized zillow with $57,000,000, part of their profits off Expedia.com: if zillow is doing so swell, if you believe all the self-hype you read on that blog, izillow is not only worth more, but Frink and Barton can afford to pay you much, much more. I like the idea someone suggested of "parody and criticism." That's not hard to do with zillow -- so easy and fun to make a "comedy" out of all the bs they've pulled on homeowners and agents alike since they've been running. A number of people have been working on a future site called zillowclassaction.com, a data collection tool. We may decorate the site with a Z upsidedown and backwards. There are sites like zilo, I've been told, and no one has copyright on the letter "Z" -- to my mind it still stands for that horseman who rides "out of the night, when the full moon is bright" ... that bold renegade making ZZZZs with his blade, Z's that stands for A LOT MORE than zillow. "Stand sure" on principle -- and give em hell. Th

[freikwcs]

Tell them you want a job at Zillow for $150k/year. You win, and they don't give in to your negotiations.

[puppetsock]

A full-time job? Sounds more like punishment than a prize. Mental freedom is worth more than $150k/yr.

[dxjones]

... with a guaranteed 2 year contract. (since it's not worth much to be hired if you're then fired after a month)

[spitfire]

You're in negotiations (They offered, didn't demand). Counter with an offer of $X0,000. Divide and conquer from there.

[lbrandy]

Threatening to cut off his API access if he doesn't acquiesce sounds, to me, more like "demand" than "offer".

To the OP: looking at the pulse of just this thread, don't underestimate the size of the PR shit-storm they'd set off by strong-arming you out of the way. Try to help them understand that.

[imafk]

No. Youre being suckered to try and enter into negotiations. If you counter offer to a point it is cheaper for them to put a lawyer into the mix, you will face accusations of trying to profit - and by all precedent lose the lot. Cut and run is the only advise that will get you out with more money in your pocket than you have today.

[mdakin]

Negotiate a better price. If you can't agree on a price and Zillow cuts you off spread the word about that fact.

[huhtenberg]

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=588098

[mdasen]

So, they're definitely giving you the short end of the stick. It's unfair. It's terrible. But there might be nothing you can do about it.

Most sites with an API have in their API agreement that they can cut you off at anytime with or without reason. Zillow states:

Zillow.com may change, suspend or discontinue the Zillow API and suspend or terminate your use of the Zillow API, Zillow Data, and/or Zillow Brand & Links at any time for any reason, without notice.

They've decided that you were great when you were adding value to them, but now you're a competitor and they're going to shut you down. This is the unfortunate circumstance of relying on services that can change their terms at any time.

I don't agree with the extent that RMS takes the free software argument all the time, but when he talks about cloud computing, this is what he's talking about. Providers are saying, "Don't worry. Leave everything to us. It will be nice and you don't have to maintain anything." It also means that you have no recourse when they decide to change their terms. You become beholden to them and their good graces - sounds like a feudal relationship in a way. Cross your lord and you'll live to regret it.

Really, the worst you can do to them is get them a lot of bad press. Maybe that will swing the power to your side - "attention developers: zillow will just cut you off from their API if they see you as competition." Might make Zillow more amenable to paying you a little more. Lots of sites would jump on publishing such a thing. The FSF or other FOSS advocates might write up stuff as a "warning: don't let this happen to you" about cloud computing. Zillow, I'm sure, would like to avoid their name in that mess - probably to the tune of more money than they're offering now.

Just remember. Enemies threaten; friends warn. Be very nice with Zillow and kinda casually mention that you think you might pitch TechCrunch on the idea of a story about the situation - cutting off API access and all. Remember, you're happy to sell and not mad at them, but that they might not come off looking so nice in the press at $250.

[deepakjois]

<blockquote>Be very nice with Zillow and kinda casually mention that you think you might pitch TechCrunch on the idea of a story about the situation - cutting off API access and all. Remember, you're happy to sell and not mad at them, but that they might not come off looking so nice in the press at $250.</blockquote>

By posting everything about the situation on HN, isnt it possible that somebody has already caught wind of the story :).

[mingyeow]

This is TERRIBLE UNETHICAL business practice

1) Determine a fair price 2) If they insist on being AS ridiculous like cutting off YOUR API access... - Prepare a Twitter / Blog campaign (#zillowfail) - Get the NYtimes reporter aware of this. They will listen to you if your email subject is "Unethical, unfair behavior from Zillow" 3) Negotiate further.

The HN hacker/Twitter community will help out. This is ridiculous

[flipbrad]

Oh come on - why seek to hurt/destroy a viable business in these dark days just because you personally don't like how you're treated?

Determine a fair value for your work and negotiate. It's a shame they opened with a low-ball offer backed by a threat (if this is truly how this all unfolded), but be the bigger man here and forge some cooperation! Maybe then they can learn a lesson about dealing with API devs without first seeing them scared off by a personal vendetta campaign

[tjic]

> Determine a fair price

That term has no definition.

Instead "determine a price that you can live with and they would rather pay than go with their second best plan".

[axod]

He's using their brand without permission :/ I agree that is a Terrible unethical business practice.

[JeremyChase]

So you are using their API for your app. I assume their TOS allows them the ability to turn off service for you at their discretion.

If that is the case you don't have any legal recourse regarding the API. I would certainly not give up the domain for chump change, and would look at a different source for your data.

I would also look into any copyright issues, but selling for a small amount is absolutely not worth it to you. I would hold onto it just out of principle at this point.

[jamesbritt]

Others may be interested in buying the domain as well, now that it's known that Zillow has their eyes on it.

Keep spreading that info around. Maybe the best offer will come from elsewhere.

[wehriam]

Launching a Zillow competitor named "iZillow" and using a different data source is a violation of the trademark.

[JohnCook]

Very interesting discussion, so I followed up and asked Zillow for their thoughts on the matter.

Here's what their spokeswoman just told me:

"He misused our trademark and we had to follow up. He's welcome to continue using our API as long as he doesn't infringe upon our trademarks and use the brand name Zillow. As per his post - it's not a complete representation of our correspondence with him. This is about defending Zillow's trademark, nothing else."

John Cook TechFlash

[patrickg-zill]

I would say that if they pursue a legal option it will cost them no less than $5-10K. Thus your minimum price should be about $15K. If they cut you off, figure out what competitor they might not want traffic to go to and set a landing page to point to them.

I would suggest you talk to an actual lawyer and see if you can get them on strong-arm tactics or anti-competitive practices.

[ericb]

What I would do is counter with some reasonable offer to show you're willing to play ball for the reasons below.

IANAL but I seem to remember in my business law class that even if my last name was "macdonald" in US courts I would have trouble keeping "macdonalds.com" because of trademark issues. I imagine the same would be true for izillow.com. On top of which, as other posters have mentioned, their Terms of Service likely gives them the right to cut you off at any time. Your leverage is low.

For them it is a business decision where they would rather avoid legal expense and bad PR.

Keeping in mind that the lower of legal fees + PR damage or the dollar value in harm your app does to their brand and sales sets the upper bound for what they would likely pay.

If the site is getting about 2500 visitors a month, I would probably respond mentioning how much work and time you put into it, and emphasizing that you want to work with them on this, then ask for $4,000.

[tolmasky]

In my opinion the domain alone is easily worth a couple thousand dollars.

[lacker]

Since the domain is "izillow" and it's playing off your knowledge of zillow, it seems like zillow could get the domain legally if they wanted to spend the effort.

[quellhorst]

I'll give you $275.

[thorax]

$500.

Maybe we'll have an auction here in the comments? Of course, the later bids will take longer to show up with the new reply rules.

At least the poster can tell them he has better offers.