Ask HN: "Dumbing yourself down" around your peers?

[ilitirit]

To what extent do you do this and why? How has it affected you, and your relationships with people?

I've been doing it my whole life (I'm 30) because I felt that it would be easier to fit in with most people. So when I hear people confidently repeat urban myths like "we only use 10% of our brains", or "you'll drown if you don't eat an hour before swimming" etc, I don't bother trying to explain why I think they're wrong. Some people take it too personally (because of their ego, perhaps), and if they think you do it too often they tend to avoid your company for various reasons. Then there are times I avoid discussion of a topic completely because it tends to happen at a very superficial level or from a very narrow perspective (maybe because of things like lack of understanding or confirmation bias). I find that when I try to expand on certain areas of discussion I just get blank stares. So I usually just stick to topics like gossip, sport, women, cars, or I let other people do most of the talking. Obviously all individuals (and my relationships with them) are different to a degree, but these are some of the things I tend to see and do.

Anyway, I'm 30 now and I think "dumbing myself down" (at least on an intellectual level) has really taken it's toll on me. I never really had a big problem with managing relationships with people but it's getting to the point where I find conversations with my friends unbearable. eg. Last night I was on my phone reading HN and reddit while a group of us were in a lounge at some club (we had just come from a strip-club). I've vented occasionally about how I felt about this to my mom and she always says I should get new friends. The problem is that part of trying to fit in is emulating the behaviour of your peers. When I was younger, I was hung out with the street-thug type (avoided crime and drugs though). Then I left that for the clubbing and partying scene (took me a while to adjust). After leaving college I found there are very few people with my interests and lifestyle. They usually tend to fall into one group or the other. To put it simply, the one group is smart but boring, the other group is exciting but being around them is a mind-numbing experience. I've tried having two sets of friends but it didn't work out that well. I could also try changing my social circles again but where to next? And I don't really feel like changing my lifestyle again. Perhaps balance is the key, but finding people with the right balance is not that easy.

In the meantime I've resorted back to my (unhealthy) hacker nature. Dark bedroom, bright monitor, and 20 tabs open in a browser.

Anyone else going/been through something similar? How do you cope/are you coping?

[patio11]

If you're consistently the smartest person in the room, you probably need one of two things: new friends or a reality check. Possibly both.

The best advice I ever got about picking friends was that you should hang out with the people you want to be like. In your case, you seem to not want to go directly from a strip club to a social establishment and get crunked. Well, there is a fairly simple solution to that...

(UrbanDictionary tells me my usage of "crunked" is wrong. This is what I get for not spending enough time around people who are simultaneously drunk and stoned, I guess?)

[ilitirit]

> In your case, you seem to not want to go directly from a strip club to a social establishment and get crunked.

I don't mind the partying, but even in a club, a lounge is usually more intimate and people tend to strike up conversations more easily. If a few people out of the group do it it's easy just to say "fuck this bullshit let's party!!!" and you can be relatively sure that the others will agree and the conversation dies. There are times though that people just want to relax and have "serious" discussion (especially if your life revolves around partying). And it's usually these times that I just want to turn off.

[edit] Oh and in case you were wondering, I don't usually go to strip clubs. One of my friends who owns a club was invited to check the place out and a few of us tagged along.

[DenisM]

It's funny how a simple "I find most people intellectually boring, what to do?" got a lot of highly up-voted "get off of your high horse, smarty-pants" replies. I suppose the first lesson here is not to let people know you think lowly of them. Otherwise they get angry and stuff, silly bipedals.

You would have had much different replies if you rephrased your question to "Hey, HN is full of great people with interests and values similar to mine. I feel like I found my long-lost solumate, only several hundred of them at once. How do I find / build similar community in real life, so that I can share both bar hopping and code-hacking?".

:-)

[ilitirit]

> I suppose the first lesson here is not to let people know you think lowly of them.

You are absolutely correct, at least from my perspective (although I don't think lowly of other people in the way you might mean). If possible, I'll edit my original post with my thoughts on this matter.

> You would have had much different replies if you rephrased your question

I know. The problem is that HN represents a small part of my interests, so it's unlikely that we share the same interests or values (especially considering I'm from a 3rd world country - I don't expect that many of you guys can relate to violence and poverty in the way that I can). The reason I chose HN is because I was hoping for responses with more signal than noise. I guess another lesson here is to choose your audience your wisely. And of course be mindful of how you address them.

[DanielBMarkham]

People are social animals. I think as analytical people we forget this aspect of our humanity a lot.

So you need to feed that social part of yourself without doing, time-consuming and mostly pointless things, like getting drunk with the guys and watching naked women dance. If you dig naked women dancing, get HBO. Or just surf the net.

As a consultant, I go through phases of alone down-and-working hacking, when I'm not on a big contract, and working full-time with other people trying to help them when I am on a big contract.

I've found that both of these lifestyles have something positive and negative about them. I need social interaction, yet I crave just doing my own thing and being left alone also. I've found that since I don't value my social needs, I sometimes end up taking just whatever comes along, instead of actively planning. This spontaneity is cool when you're 20. But it gets less and less cool the older you get, for some reason. (Usually after you end up with a decade of spending your free time and you've in the same spot, with the same people, doing the same things you were ten years ago.)

In the past, this has sometimes led to be hanging out with people who are, or at least think they are, exciting. If I were you, I'd find something bigger than yourself to believe in and get involved with it. Church, Boy Scouts, civic groups, environmental groups, politics -- something that you find both intellectually stimulating and where you have a lot of social interaction. Make yourself do this, because you will not think that it will work until you actually do it.

And give up the I'm-so-smart routine. Trust me, you're an idiot like the rest of us, just in a different way. So you have lots factual recall ability? Aside from a promising future as a game show contestant, who cares? People with a great recall ability can be some of the most annoying people on the planet to deal with. Trust me, I'm one of them! Meet people where they are, and relate to them in an honest manner that you both can handle. Sounds like you've got a big of overly-done self importance thing going on. Once again, finding something more important than you and humbly trying to contribute to it could make you more of a person that really is smart and interesting and exciting people, like myself, would want to hang out with. (grin)

Life is about you putting stuff into it, not sitting on your ass waiting to see what comes out of it and then criticizing what you get by default. Sorry to rag on you so much -- you probably don't deserve it, but geesh, you're 30. Get a better attitude and lifestyle already.

[russell]

Agreed. You (the OP) need to be socialized. :-) There is a phenomenon I call the "Engineering Dance", where engineers and similar types go through a kind dominance ritual on first meeting, probing to see who is the most expert. This doesn't work in most social situations; most people dont like it.

My SO has a masters in math and a minor in CS, but we dont talk about my work much at all. She's a painter; we talk about painting. I enjoy it because I'm learning a lot. I suggest finding a nontechnical interest and become good at it: music, art, literature. You dont have to be an artist or musician, just knowledgeable.

Enlist a woman in the reclamation project. Their social skills really are better than ours, especially the extroverts. Dont look for a GF to do this. Enlist a sister or friend. The two of you can throw a barbecue or the like for the expanded set of friends.

Most people have a socially adept friend. Use said friend for introductions.

[spkthed]

That's a pretty good response. Intelligence has nothing to do with intellectual abilities. 'Idiot savants' can do brilliant and amazing things. The smartest people in the world have trouble remembering where they put their glasses. Some people can recall every detail of every minute of their lives.

People are simply different. The people that feel that they are smarter than others are often way down the line. The really smart people are the ones that want to learn everything from everyone.

As it turns out, when you're always trying to be the teacher, you miss out on many of life's lessons.

[ilitirit]

I hesitated to comment on this post for a long time but I think you're pretty much completely off base.

I don't really see how the first 3 paragraphs has anything to do with the problem that I'm having, and I think that for some reason you've just assumed that I don't have hobbies (!?).

As for the "give up the I'm-so-smart routine", I've already explained what I meant several times elsewhere so I don't think I need to get into it again, but needless to say, I think you've completely misinterpreted what I was trying to convey. To be honest, I think that paragraph of yours sounds more arrogant than anything in my first post. But then again, sometimes things just get lost in translation.

The last paragraph sounds incredibly condescending. "Get better attitude and lifestyle"? It really sounds like you're trying to say that you live a "better" life and have a better attitude than what I have, even though the only thing you know about me is my age, what I did last night and a personal issue that I'm trying to understand for myself.

As I said, much of this can be attributed to misinterpretation on both sides. Obviously we could go back and forth clarifying various aspects of our posts but I don't really see the value in that. I prefer just to take some of the lessons I posted elsewhere under this submission and work from there.

[edw519]

Great response! I didn't read this until after I made my response, but I couldn't have said it any better myself.

Daniel, sometimes (not always) when I read your writing, I wonder if we were separated at birth. Sure looking forward to meeting you someday.

[RiderOfGiraffes]

I felt like that until I was 19. I joined Mensa, and found people who loved puzzles, knowledge, intelligence and discussion.

When I moved town and did my PhD I found the local Mensans complete prats, but the university gave me the stimulation I needed.

You need to find people with whom you can be yourself, but equally, you need to learn how to get on with people in general. I learned a lot from Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People." It's almost a manual for how to problem-solve your way through the challenge of social interaction. Recognise that others have needs and desires, and sometimes that means you shouldn't try to educate them. There are times when it's of no value.

Recognise too that sometimes others are just as smart as you, but in different fields of expertise. Learn to learn from them.

Stay true to yourself, learn to interact with people generally, respect people as individuals, ...

Seek out those with whom you can be yourself.

They do exist.

[pj]

That's the trick! Find something interesting about people. People want to be appreciated and /almost/ everyone has something to appreciate. As an intelligent person, your job isn't to be more interesting than other people, it is to find the interesting things in others.

It's like playing games. Over time, if you always win, people stop wanting to playing with you. Find games they can win and lose frequently until you win all the time then find a new game to play with them together.

[jnovek]

Personally, I try not to say things like "dumbing down". It's presumptuous to assume that I'm smarter than other people; I don't need that kind of ego boost.

I tend to think of it as people having different interests. Many people have a familiarity with celebrity gossip that rivals my familiarity with programming. They're just choosing to use their brainpower in a different way.

I'm sure many people on HN disagree, but that's how I see the world. Intelligence neutral.

I choose to hang out with people who are interested in things that I am. I have a natural filter -- I continue to talk about things that I think are interesting in all company, and when conversation moves in a direction that I don't like, I disengage. That's not to say that I don't try to take an interest in things outside of my realm of experience, but people who know me learn pretty quickly that if they talk about football, I'm going to get glassy eyed. Or worse, start talking about the use of graph theory in tournament scheduling.

[ilitirit]

> Personally, I try not to say things like "dumbing down"

I know exactly what you mean. That's why I put in quotes. It just makes it easier to talk about.

Usually, "dumbing myself down" in my case means suppressing knowledge that I have. I can't fault other people for not knowing things that I do because as you say different people have different interests, and beside that I spend much more time on the internet that what they do, so I'm more up to date with current affairs than they are.

But whether you take "dumbing down" to mean suppression of knowlege, skills or intelligence, the end result is what I was referring to.

> I continue to talk about things that I think are interesting in all company, and when conversation moves in a direction that I don't like, I disengage

This is part of what I mean. Maybe other people have a higher tolerance level (or maybe I do it too much) but this kind of behaviour has really taken it's toll on me.

[IsaacSchlueter]

Be the person you wish you were. Anyone who doesn't like it is not a friend you need. It is absolutely possible to have a very active social life and also have intellectually stimulating friends.

I have long tried to make a point to never dumb myself down for the sake of others. The people it scares away are the people that I want to scare away, because they offer nothing to me and I probably offer nothing to them. And the people who appreciate my kind of intelligence are the people I want to associate with.

If it feels dishonest, it probably is.

Edit: Also, move to Silicon Valley. It's full of people who like smarts.

[radu_floricica]

Been there. But I find I haven't felt that particular need for quite a while. I guess what helped is that in the last year I started to read a lot. I made a "never look at the price" policy when it comes to books, and used amazon to the max. I still have a backlog of 2-3 books, and usually one in the mail (also in a not very developed country, mail takes about a month).

I can only guess why it works, or why simply reading HN or articles isn't enough. Reading a book is usually harder, more immersive and, if the author is good, usually feels like a dialog.

What books exactly probably depends on yourself. I started with The Black Swan, by Nicholas Nassim Taleb, and it really opened my taste to good books. Richard Dawkins's older books, Marvin Minsky, Hernando de Soto, Jared Diamond, they all deserve to be read in full.

I also caught up with some professional books I somehow missed, like The Mythical Man-month or Peopleware, and I found a fascination for cognitive psychology with The Wisdom of Crowds and Predictably Irrational.

Yup. Thinking back I no longer wonder why. Each book was a very long conversation with a person smarter then myself. Exactly what I needed.

[edw519]

You may not like my answer, but you asked, so here goes:

I think the only problem is with your attitude. Like ilitirit, I hate the expression, "dumbing down". I am probably similar in nature to you, and I have never had this problem, much less even thought about it.

At the bookstore over coffee, my SO reads about design & fashion while I read about Galois and number theory. So what? (I just have to remember to nod in agreement to questions like, "Aren't those window treatments beautiful?") When people talk about sports, I don't tune out; in fact, I enjoy a little football and basketball between coding sessions.

OTOH, NASCAR = for(i=0;i<800;i++){turnLeft()};

I don't watch much TV, don't enjoy gossip, and don't recognize many celebrities, but I can still smile and nod in most conversations. At the very least, I can usually politely direct them to something a little more interesting.

Don't forget, you're human before you're a hacker, so being among other people, no matter who they are, is important to your well being. Don't think of "dumbing down", think of "diversifying among potential users of my code". So get out of that bedroom and join the rest of us. You'll be fine.

[pookleblinky]

WWSGD?

What would Summer Glau do?

Dumbing yourself down is like hacking off a foot to fit in with a leper colony. It's a change that'll be hard to reverse later on, whether you want to or not.

[helium]

Don't dumb yourself down. People will sense that you are not being yourself and you will be miserable anyway. I have made the same mistake myself in past and I have realised that often times people that you consider less 'intellectual' are capable of very stimulating conversation if given the right subject to talk about.

The key is to not be condescending. People don't mind smart people, but they hate being made to feel stupid. If you have to correct someone, do it in a kind, diplomatic matter.

People don't always have to be super smart to be interesting, even less intelligent folks have the ability to teach you something if you really show an interest.

I myself would rather spend most my time with 'boring', real live people than with a web browser in a darkened room.

[gfodor]

Yes, its all in approach. Two examples in regards to the 10% brain thing:

Someone: "You know, you only use 10% of your brain!"

You: "Actually, that has been debunked forever now. If you had just searched on Google you'd have known this. It's totally false, you use your entire brain yada yada yada."

vs.

You: "Yeah, someone I know told me that before and I thought it sounded really weird, so I googled around and found out that it turns out it's not actually entirely true! Pretty crazy, eh? It turns out, you use your entire brain yada yada"

The former is "you are dumb, if you used the internet or was as smart as me you'd know better" The latter is "hey friend, let me tell you a story about how I found out about how that's not true. You could have found this out too, but I'll save you the time and tell you what I uncovered."

More succinctly "You're dumb, I'm smart" vs "Check this out, friend."

[cromulent]

I believe that I can relate. I have a deep interest in various permanent and ephemeral topics that I simply have no idea who I would discuss them with. I am far more interested in these than most front pages of the newspaper, but the wonderful people who are my friends wouldn't sit still for the hour or so it would take them to get up to speed on the issue.

That's not to say I am particularly smart or anything, I'm just a specialist in terms of my interests more than a generalist. People also fit different amounts of thinking into each day, and I probably do more than most. That thinking may well be of low quality, but the quantity ensures that I would probably get blank stares from almost anyone.

So, I work on being a generalist where possible to help fit in, and I develop the skill of tailoring my conversation content and style (and speech) to different scenarios. That's fine for casual social situations, and great for work, but I still yearn for someone who has read all the articles I just read and wants to talk about them. I know from the web they are out there, but our paths never cross.

The funny thing is, I blame RSS. I think that RSS really did enable the computer to be a "bicycle for the mind" and that you can tell quite quickly now in a social circle who uses RSS and who doesn't. I guess that your friends don't. A well-stocked news reader expands your world and your interests and your knowledge of current events so quickly, that it almost creates two classes of people.

I have had people comment favorably on my breadth of knowledge on current events and I almost laugh - I just skimmed a relevant article in my reader that morning, so I happened to know what they are talking about. I guess they are also used to "dumbing it down" for others.

I finally convinced my wife to use RSS and now we have so many more good conversations. Her eyes glaze over quickly when I mention Tokyo Cabinet or Wolfram|Alpha, but that just means I have to work harder to make it interesting and relative.

[ilitirit]

> The funny thing is, I blame RSS.

Yeah, I can relate. I've always wondered if I would still have this problem if my thirst for knowledge wasn't so big. I've tried introducing some of my friends to things like StumbleUpon and reddit etc (they are somewhat intimidated when confronted with IT terms like RSS though). Only one of them has taken an interest, and he loves it and regularly crawls the web to learn more about the world. Strangely enough, it is when I did this that the problem in my original post started growing. I think my frustrations were being suppressed subconsciously and when I realized this shared some of my interests, it dawned on me how I missed real-world intellectual stimulation. Like an ex crack-addict who just took another hit after years of being clean.

I am of course a realist. I don't expect to "convert" all my friends, so in the meantime I'll just try to find ways in which to cope.

[csomar]

This is happening with me also. I'm a hacker (ok a developers) and my friends don't understand really what the web is, so I turn to spend 98% of my time in front of computer and avoid to go with them anywhere because their talk makes me headaches.

However (few months ago) I did found a friend that really understand me (although being tech-savvy) and we are projecting for the summer.

Keep searching, if in your area internet is widely used, you may find, I already find another one (she's a girl and work as a designer) using twitter, but not in the same city.

Be patient getting good friends need time

[ilitirit]

Something that I've noticed is that this usually happens in "poorer" areas. What country are you from? I'm from South Africa, and most people down here don't even have a computer, let alone the internet.

My friends are different though, but they don't spend as much time on the internet as I do. There aren't any other software programmers in my group either.

[vaksel]

Look for more friends, just because the rule is that one group is smart but lame, and the other is dumb and fun, doesn't mean that there aren't people who are both.

There are plenty of people who are smart and fun, and plenty who are dumb and lame.

Sure you'll have to work harder to find those people, but it should be worth it, to keep your identity

[dazzawazza]

We are all different people in different social circles. This is just how successful humans operate. You don't behave the same way over dinner with your parents as you are over dinner with your friends.

It seems to me you have unrealistic expectations. As you grow older you gain many different social circles, ex college, ex work, ex town etc. What binds you is different and what stimulates each group is different. If you seriously can't find something stimulating about a group of people then just stop seeing them... but remember it is also a reflection on you.

Most people offer much more then you seem to be able to extract and when addressed properly are stimulated by challenging conversation.

[ellyagg]

My friend, you sound like my clone. I haven't really figured it out. We may just be doomed.

[ilitirit]

If possible, can you explain which parts of my post resonated with you most and how you would have put it in your own words? I'm trying to understand how I should communicate these sort of issues to other people.

[mooneater]

A few years ago, I discovered there actually are circles that are truly both very smart, and totally cool.

For example in Toronto, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumkidz

Previously I thought this was impossible, and I was didnt even dare hope to find it.

But, Im no longer in TO, and yes, its hard once again to find. But I know such people are out there!

[nickfox]

Don't ever dumb yourself down just to be accepted by people. It seems like you have simply outgrown your friends. You are growing and becoming a different person. That is a good thing.

I've always been the type of person who most enjoys having "deep" discussions with one other person. You need to connect with people on a much deeper level than you are currently doing. Don't worry, there are plenty of people like that around. You need to go out and find them.

So... Get out of your comfort zone and start trying new things. For instance, try swing dancing, start taking lessons. You'll find an entirely different caliber of people at swing dances than you will in bars.

I think you are doing fine and the fact that you are concerned about this and reaching out to others to find a solution tells me that you will most likely find what you are looking for.

Good luck in your search and keep on learning and growing like you are doing. It sounds like you are on a great path.

[ConcreteBeton]

You sound like you're torn between Niles & Frasier Crane and the cast of Friends!

FWIW, I have a LOT of different interests, and I get really cheesed off by one group of nerdy friends who are anxious to put down anything popular but am similarly frustrated by normal people who won't branch out of their comfort zone and look at the world through a different lens.

I'm not a computer buff by trade or training but I suspect this is a problem that has nothing to do with intelligence. It often seems to have more to do with not wanting to admit to knowing/not knowing about something so as not to appear too 'different'. I think it's a rut one can get out of through travelling/ moving/working somewhere new, because being suddenly forced to make new friends as an adult can encourage honesty and a re-evaluation of what is important.

Good luck, however you choose to tackle this problem.

[anshul]

> So when I hear people confidently repeat urban myths like "we only use 10% of our brains", or "you'll drown if you don't eat an hour before swimming" etc, I don't bother trying to explain why I think they're wrong.

Why would you do a thing like that? I just go to extraordinary lengths to do the exact opposite... correct people all the time. Over the ages, it has resulted in a lot of nicknames, sarcasm but yes... a group of friends who accept me for what I truly am and with whom I truly enjoy the time I spend. And I wouldn't have it any other way.

I really don't understand why would you do a thing like that? Why hide what you are? Who cares what others think? I say jump right in... let them know what you think, pitch your ideas, debate... what's the worse that could happen? You would be back to the dark bedroom, bright monitor, 20 tabs, right?

[eugenejen]

I just think it is more important to be authenticate with myself and people who knows me.I do not to dumb myself down if I am really smart. And I know there are chances that someone is smarter than I am or learned more domain knowledge than I have. I need to be modest but I need to hold my own ground. Otherwise, I will be a big coward toward my true self.

I did not try to fit in any group. If I don't feel comfortable. I leave. I am a pretty loner and I take it.

I hold very low opinions toward a person who can't be authenticate about himself/herself. When I feel a person are just a fake person and I just move away. IMHO, faking wastes precious resources in the world. I don't want myself to be someone wasting other people's time and emotion. And I don't want people like that to waste my time and emotion.