Ask HN: Help. I need to go away from here

[watermel0n]

I am in Italy and I need help. I hope there is anyone here on HN that can help me. I am a Computer Science student, I started 3 years ago the course because I LOVE PROGRAMMING. My only wish is to get away from here. It's like a trap. I have to thank the internet for connecting me to the outside world. It feels like it's the only way out for me and I am obsessed. Thing is "startups" here are hell, lots of bureaucracy and so on. I tried to look away, apply for a job/internship in the U.S. but the reason is always the same: visas are hell. I would do anything to get my way out.

I study EVERY DAY so hard, University here is a mess, bad management and few very good professors. I know how to program, I have a strong passion for algorithms, data structure and complexity analysis. In addition I try to learn new things in my free time, like other programming languages, tools, etc. You know, I am in my third and final year and if it wasn't for my curiosity now I would have no knowledge at all for REST, Python or even Maven! (Just saying)

I feel trapped, I am trapped. Jobs here in enterprises are that trap, you can get a job, maybe programming in Java, and stay there forever. Because here is how the things works. I can't get my way out. I would like to pursue my educational career and I hope that my applications to English University succeed but still it's just a try.

I don't expect anything more from my situation, I really hope that someone can point me to the right direction or at least give some help.

Thank you HN and sorry for this post, but I had no other chance.

[simias]

Come on, don't be a drama queen, as a european citizen how can you be trapped? You can go work anywhere in Europe without visa.

I'm in France and we're not well renowned for our startup scene, but you can still find something interesting if you look hard enough and build your skillset, either through more boring jobs or the open source "scene".

And if tomorrow I can't find any appealing job in France I'll just move to Germany, the UK or wherever.

The only thing that's stopping you is your fears, your skills and/or your ambitions.

I wish you the best of luck but please try to get a little perspective, there are millions of people who are trapped right now in countries at war.

And without looking for war-torn countries, us people in the IT crowd have it really easy in the job market compared to... well almost anybody else these days in Europe really, possibly with the exception of traders.

[yen223]

I really don't want to be harsh on the OP, but his EU citizenship means he can easily move to another European country without problems. You want to talk trapped? Try being born in an Islamic country.

[watermel0n]

I appreciate your comment and yes, maybe, I was too dramatic. But it feels like it. I know I am an EU citizen and so on that's why I asked for advices and I got what I asked for. This community is wonderful, I love HN because there is always someone who can help.

[markyc]

yep, from the title i thought he lives in Ukraine or in some war-torn country

You may want to emulate Balsamiq's Peldi, or at least shoot him an email and get some perspective from him

Start your own projects and take the initiative, or like others have pointed, just switch countries

gl!

[edent]

There are lots of options - but it's up to you to make them happen.

* Speak to someone. I know you feel like you're alone - but you're not. Find a local tech group and speak to the people there. If you're feeling really down, speak to a mental health professional. It's a great feeling to get something off your chest.

* Find a job in London - or any other UK city. You seem to have good written English and you're a European citizen so shouldn't have any visa issues.

* Start your own consultancy - either work for small local companies or use oDesk and bid for work.

* Take a "day job" and concentrate on your passions in your free time. Grinding away in a Java shop may be dull - but could provide you with enough cash to start an interesting side project.

* Finally, don't worry about starting small. My first job out of university was driving a truck and delivering PCs! A bit shitty, but it provided a springboard to all sorts of interesting work.

Good luck!

[aragot]

+1 London +1 Day job that you reduce to 7hrs a day or less. You'll have to be brave, and you'll probably feel alone until 2 years after you settle in any city. Don't overwork. Once you're there, say yes to all social events. Keep overviewing all the new frameworks, Backbone, RequireJS, Play Framework, etc. Your OP was awesome.

[bigd]

> Finally, don't worry about starting small.

That in Italy might be a problem by itself. There's an incredible unemployment rate. Just pack your stuff, say bye to momma and leave the country.

Oh and remember to inscribe to AIRE before having nasty taxation surprises.

[oscardelben]

-1 on start your own consultancy in Italy. Taxes will kill you. It's not worth it.

[ig1]

Move to a tech hub in Europe, given you speak English then London would be the obvious option (Berlin might be another option if you want to work for startups). There's also other countries in Europe where you can study post-grad CS in English (e.g. the Netherlands, Sweden, etc.).

If you're interested in getting into the job market there's plenty of tech companies in London who are willing to hire people straight out of university. It might be easier to get into big companies (as they're more willing to provide training and pay for flights, hotels, etc. to bring you over for interviews) than smaller startups though.

[kfk]

As Italian myself, I lived almost 5 years ago and I have never looked back. If you want an advise, live. If you can go to US good, otherwise almost any other country would do too.

But you are not trapped... You are what? 23? With a EU Visa. At this age you can take 1 year off and go to a place, any place, that you like and start from there.

Finally, do you actually have a github? If you are studying 10 hrs a day to be "third in your final year", then that's why you are trapped. You are trapped in that terrible Italian way of thinking that grades are all that matters. Get lower grades and go build stuff, get a job, even a "normal" job like a waiter will teach you a lot.

[lylejohnson]

He said that he was in his third and final year (of University), and (I believe) lamenting the fact that most of the interesting things he's learned during that time were learned on side projects and not in his coursework.

[jalan]

I live in India, and I face the same situation time and again, which you are facing now.

I've come to a conclusion that it's because of Hacker News, the more you see HN, the more you get worried by watching a lot of start-ups growing in front of you, and you can't do nothing but press an upvote button, applauding their success.

What you need to do is close HN and minimize the time you spend on it, instead work on something, start small and don't get depressed easily.

The stories you see on HN are months hard work, they also feel same time and again, but they don't lose hope.

I know my comment is bit harsh and not sympathetic, but IMHO right now you don't need sympathy instead you need motivation.

Work Hard! Good Luck.

[watermel0n]

OP Here.

So I was definitely over-worried. I learned a lot today and was something that I was not expecting at all.

First I would say to everyone that criticized my post: THANKS. Really thank you, because you made me feel better.

I read every comment here and got some useful advices. Also I talked in private with some great people and received lots of emails with great advices.

I really didn't know about the European Startup scene. Lots of people suggested that I should move to London or Berlin. Thing is the internet and web startups are mainly US based that's my kind of trap that I felt.

...Thank you

[krumiro79]

I'm Italian and moved to London 3 years ago. I had a nice 10-min commute permanent job and a mortgage but I was feeling pretty much like you. I decided to escape and spent all my savings (not much really) to move a abroad and experience something different.

I did it for me, for my job, for my family and my future. And I'm doing good (I'm a software dev in a financial company) and I really feel all these efforts were worth it.

I've learnt a lot of things and still learning, but most of all... I'm happy to have left my country to its decline and contribute with my best to UK, which is giving me the opportunity of a better living. I only live once, I can't afford to fix Italy.

I think Italy is still a little treasure chest.... but it's living in the past. My suggestion is to move away as soon as you graduate (or even now if you wish) and go to some other country like Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands or UK. I'm sure you'll be fine.

[dariot]

> I only live once, I can't afford to fix Italy.

I'm not happy to say this, but this has become my point of view since the last few years, too.

[dariot]

Junior Italian programmer here. I totally get your point, the thing is here in Italy we're used to a different level of expertise than most of the rest of the world.

I don't know which university you're attending but it's highly likely they're teaching you either useless stuff or useful stuff in a very superficial manner (which will be nowhere near enough for passing a technical interview in the U.S., for example).

As somebody else has already said, one of the best things you can do is to get (very) good at programming. There's a lot of material available on the web for studying on your own and practicing your skills: TopCoder and HackerRank are the first two websites that come to mind. Study hard and practice there, some of the problems you find on those websites are very close to the ones people will ask you during technical interviews. You'll need to be quick and accurate in an interview, so be sure to understand why a certain algorithm/data structure works for a given problem. It's hard and it requires a lot of time, but since you're a student time is on your side (trust me, when you'll be working time will be your most valuable resource).

Another good thing to do IMHO is to practice programming using open source resources such as GitHub: build a nice repo of projects and you'll get noticed. A couple years ago I made a stupidly simple JavaScript program (which I've since deleted) that changed the font size of a text, giving it the shape of a wave, a slope, etc. Very simple, very stupid, but still: I posted it here on HN and I got a couple people watching my GitHub repo. Also, working on personal projects is good for learning programming practices (how to structure code, how to design classes, etc.).

As a final note, it may be hard to believe but there are some nice programming jobs here: you just have to look very hard to find them. Don't settle for the first job offer you get: I know the market is pretty bad here at this moment but still, unless you really (and I do mean really) need the money, keep looking and most important of all, keep practicing. Experience pays off.

You can find some of my contact info on my profile, let me know if you have some questions.

Good luck.

[CalRobert]

Presumably you're an EU citizen. Move to Berlin, London, Dublin, Warsaw, and pick up from there. If your English needs work, work on it. Build your own projects.

I moved from California to Dublin and the startup scene is really good here. You have options.

[zytek]

Good advice. EU citizens have it easy here.

Berlin and London being the obvious choice, I recommend you Poland if you are adventurous. The 'startup hub' here is Kraków (Cracow). Avoid Warsaw. Feel free to contact me for more tips for Poland.

[gorbachev]

I'm considering making the same move (US to Dublin). I'm an EU citizen, so no visa issues.

What resources would you recommend for job hunting / networking?

[seffignoz]

Italian here as well, graduated few months ago from a MsC., I feel your pain. Was for a full year in USA for an internship, I can say that it has changed my life, and my view on work.

I refused hundreds of Job offers from Italy (even with a decent salary), to chase something abroad. Now I am happily working at one of the top tech companies, in Dublin.

I had a hard time at university. The italian university are broken, seriously, They focus on a lot of theory and zero to no practice.

My personal advice is, to believe in yourself, develop yourself, study new technologies and skills required by the market, find your perfect 'career' path. You won't find hard finding a really good job in Europe or USA if you have the right skills.

P.S. don't accept ANY of the Italian initial offers, look outside, practice with spoken English and send Resumè's abroad (Don't be scared about the big companies, they need you more than everybody else, and they are hiring like crazy.)

Don't start working in Italy in a typical "consultancy" job, or you will be stuck forever with a low-wage low-experience job.

[macca321]

The theory is good. You'll get plenty of practice later.

[markusian]

I have studied in Italy too and, even if I didn't have a big passion for programming as you did, I see your point.

Apart from English University, think also about coming to study in Denmark, in particular where I'm studying now, at DTU (Technical University of Denmark).

Here the Startup scene is very vibrant and the University itself is very keen on the entreprenurial scene, with a lot of possibilities for student that want to open their own companies.

On the other side, the lectures are very practical, so you could apply your bachelor background in more close-to-real-life projects. You'll also work quite often in groups, as in a real job, and the bureaucracy does not exists. You call the teachers by name, they answer emails (!), you know the date of the exam since the beginning of the semester, and you have a variety of courses you can choose from, creating your own personalized study plan.

Aaand, student jobs are quite easy to get here for Computer Science students, and the wages are quite good, even comparing them with the high cost of living.

Think about it ;)

[CiaranR]

Like many other have said Europe is on your doorstep. I run and engineering team in London and most of my recent hires have been people emigrating from countries like Spain, Italy and Poland. For most they are coming from backgrounds similar to yours. Our Office is hugely diverse with staff from all over the world. This is the case with most London startups and the are looking looking for talented engineers to join them.

If you are interested check our or jobs page http://busuu.com/jobs or email me on [email protected] mentioning HN so I know its you

Good luck with the future you are only getting started!

[mess]

As other have already said, this is not a real problem.So calm down.

Just keep pushing for what you want, whatever it takes, keep pushing.

When I was 15, I was working on a supermarket in Buenos Aires, Argentina in one of the worst and most violent neighbourhoods. I worked there until I was 20. I had a very hard time going from college to work every day, and then to work even more hours and going at night to the university. Working on computers was what I loved and it was impossible there and I felt exactly like you, or worse, with a very deep depression. Fortunately, my parents are Italian and I have an Italian passport, so I moved to Spain (I don't speak much italian) with 2000 euros in my pocket and without any friend/family there. I was 21 Years old and left behind everything I had. After 6 months in Madrid I had new and good friends, a job in at an internet company that I liked a lot, rented my own flat, approved the exams for the university, and a even had girlfriend I still have today.

I used to go to the university during the day, then to sleep 6 horus then and work from 23pm to 7am every day. Now I'm 31 years old, I live in London, work for one of the most important tech companies in the world, earn a lot of money and I don't even put an alarm clock in the morning.I've been very lucky so far too.

Every year I go back to see my family and friends in Buenos Aires. I miss them a LOT. But heck, that's sacrifice you have to do and every time I go there I'm even more proud of the choices I did, the most important ones of my life and I think I did the best thing I could have done.

How much do you want it? Keep pushing until you get what you want.

[jmngomes]

I'm in Portugal and understand how you feel, as it's basically the same thing here.

I've also got some experience under my belt that proves to me that, if you want to do something meaningful, you have to start it yourself, otherwise there's a strong poossibility that you'll get trapped in one of the "drone" jobs you mentioned.

But you have another option, that's been mentioned here. There's more world outside of the US. You can start applying to great companies doing cool stuff in the EU (Google, Yahoo, Amazon, Paypal, etc) and you can even get a job now that allows you to build the skills you need to work on one of these companies in a year, if you don't have them already.

The only thing that seems to stand in your way, apparently, is your anxiety about an eventual lack of options, which is understandable.

But you do have options. Actually, being "in computers", you have more options than 90% of the workforce, as there's demand for your skills.

So, just trust yourself, give it a (serious) try.

Start working on getting out, or starting something of your own. Otherwise, I agree that you risk wasting a lot of time and emotional health on a dead end job.

[fisadev]

Honestly, you are living in a first world country, and you are able to live in almost any other first world country without much effort. You could go to germany, UK, france... and being a good developer, I'm sure you will find a nice job in any of them.

So, no, you are not "trapped" as far as I know (based on what you say).

To add a little perspective: there are people in countries at war. And people living in countries where the government doesn't allow them to leave. Haven't you seen the pull request comment everybody was talking about yesterday? (somebody answering a pull request telling he won't be able to work on it because of an ongoing revolution in his country).

I myself live in a country where I can't buy dollars without a special government permission (try to leave the country without any cash...). I can't even buy stuff on the internet without having to sign an affidavit each time, and I'm only allowed do that 2 times a year. That is much closer to be "trapped", and even here, I was able to find a really nice job where I can work on AI, python, and other nice things.

[phantom_oracle]

What oppressive part of the world are you living in?

[davidw]

I'm an American in Italy, so while there are things I don't like here, I don't feel 'trapped' - I can always go home.

Go to London or Berlin or something. There are tons of Italians in both places working in tech.

Where do you live in Italy? There are good companies here and there if you look hard.

Say hi if you're ever near Padova, where I live. Offer goes for anyone on HN, for that matter.

[weddpros]

Alternatives :

- send your resumé to uk/ireland/switzerland to get a good paying job where you can sharpen your skills (it's easy to relocate inside Europe)

- start your own business if you're living at your parents AND if you feel like you can be an entrepreneur... focus on international users (so you can host your company somewhere else easily later). It's only risky to start a business if you have something to lose. If you're living at your parents', there's basically no risk.

- get a job, save AS MUCH money as possible, learn as much as you can. Do it for 1 or 2 years, then leave to a sunny paradise (in asia?) where you may want to become an entrepreneur.

But do yourself a favor: don't expect others to be your only chance. YOU are your only chance.

[eps]

Probably not Switzerland as it's not in EU.

[rwissmann]

The easiest short-term solution is to work for or intern with a great company in Europe for a while, most likely in London. Your best options are a brand name tech company - Google, Palantir, Microsoft, etc. - well connected start-up - Spotify, GoCardless, Transferwise, etc. - or a technology-driven hedge fund. If you are a really good programmer there will be plenty of people happy to hire you. We have a real shortage of tech talent here. You can always transfer to the US later or get hired at a US company happy to sponsor a visa based on those credentials.

It might be worth talking to some good tech recruiters in London. Depends a bit on your background and how much of your university course you have left.

[nmc]

You should not feel trapped. Programming, more than most sectors, grants you the liberty to choose your next job very freely, and to ease your mind about quitting your previous job.

Because: if you are good, people will fight to work with you. So be good.

Then, if you dislike your job, just stash some money and quit. Your savings will easily carry you for the few months you might need to find a really interesting job.

* * *

To sum up:

- You "love programming", so you should enjoy doing it for a living, as long as the project is interesting

- There are lots of interesting projects out there

- Regardless of whether the project is interesting, you will be well-paid

So my advice is: be well-paid for a while, and if you are not interested in the project, just quit. There is plenty of other fish in the sea.

[andretti1977]

I'm an italian 36 years old computer engineer...i understand your complaints and agree with you quite on every thing you said but you don't need to go away (even if it wouldn't be a bad idea at all). Three years ago, after working as an employee (my skills regarded most j2ee) i started working as a freelance: i grew my skills (now android, iOS, a lot of web-related technologies and languages) knew a lot of people, solved a lot of different clients needs through my skills. if you want you can freelance and you will be able to improve yourself and live a bettere life even if you live here in italy, even if we have unacceptable tax levels and burocracy.