I made a couple million and then lost it all, including the wife and kids. I muddle along now making enough to pay the rent. I don't want to end up like Phil Katz of pkzip fame, but I've come close. I don't know why I am posting this except as a cautionary tale -- stop drinking when you are young. Really. It doesn't get better.
[+] [-] philiphodgen|12 years ago|reply
I wish commenters here would understand that the OP's glide path is currently aimed at one of two outcomes: insanity or death.
If the OP is reading the thread (and I would guess he is not) I would implore him to ignore all of the comments except those from people who have had up-front and personal experience with the damage from alcoholism.
A flippant comment -- just so you can look clever on HN -- may condemn the OP to a dismal fate. Cut it out.
OP, seek the seemingly harder way. It will turn out to be the softer, easier way. This means a new way of living (on the one hand) or a slow painful death on the other. Let the others here on HN plait their shit. You must either change or die.
Disclaimer: Anecdotal personal experience sample size for this topic is > 1.
[+] [-] mattm|12 years ago|reply
After I did a 10-day Vipassana meditation retreat, I put together https://www.programmingspiritually.com to try to help other developers that face some of the same issues. Email me if you're interested and I'll sign you up for the course for free.
[+] [-] karon|12 years ago|reply
Vipassana meditation take a slower route, but some say more thorough - it transforms your self into being more reflective, more appreciative and less judging. I've yet to try it out on a 10-day retreat, but even people who practice half-hour daily buddhist meditation praise its beneficial effects on mental and physical well being.
Both Ayahuasca and Vipassana are great routes you can take to battle your addictions, not only to alcohol or tobacco but also many kinds of pain.
[+] [-] weavie|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ufmace|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] seanccox|12 years ago|reply
If, on the other hand, you are like me an you simply drink too much, I can share how I got the situation under control.
First, I threw out a lot of the liquor in the house (I kept the good whiskey that I was already saving for a special occasion). Then, I stopped going out to bars as often and, to a certain extent, avoided people I typically drank with or found ways to socialize without being around alcohol. I also took up yoga in the mornings. I like yoga, but if I drink the night before, I won't feel like waking up for it. So, I remind myself before I go out to a pub or meet friends that if I drink, I'm screwing up my routine.
That combination has helped, and it's gotten me to a place where I can go out on a Saturday night, get a nice buzz going with three or four beers over several hours, without reaching that 'fuck it' moment where I start doing shots and smoking cigarettes till dawn.
[+] [-] mkhattab|12 years ago|reply
The odd thing is that I can't pinpoint why I'm this way. It wasn't always like this. I guess reason doesn't matter at this point.
Anyway, I don't think my post adds anything useful to this discussion, but good luck.
[+] [-] skore|12 years ago|reply
After talking to a friend of mine about his issue and how it reminded me of my own struggles, I tweeted the following:
> "I get stuck browsing reddit and I hate myself for it". Consider that the problem may not be reddit. The problem may be you hating yourself. [0]
Procrastination is often a lightning rod. Try working on the lightning part of it instead of blaming the rod that may actually be saving your life from spiralling further into darkness.
[0] https://twitter.com/skore_de/status/425743423211962368
[+] [-] EC1|12 years ago|reply
However, I discovered a passion. Illustration and UI/UX design for mobile. Every day after work I've been working an extra 8 hours because I found it so FUN.
So much so I have people working for me full time now and I'm quitting my job soon to follow my passion.
Maybe you haven't found your "calling" or something to get extraordinarily obsessed about?
[+] [-] orng|12 years ago|reply
Also, if you don't work out/exercise then I recommend that as well. You will feel better, fresher and have more energy.
[+] [-] hhabgood|12 years ago|reply
The problem is, that habit of watching TV with dinner causes me to sit down and get sucked into my TV habit. For example, last night I decided to do that and ended up watching 3 episodes of random shows and then going to bed, instead of doing what I wanted to do.
When I eat dinner and listen to a podcast, I still have a bit of an urge to watch TV but I find it much easier to sit down and get to work afterwards.
Maybe you have this type of habit in your own life? Try thinking about what you do every day when you come home from work, and identify your 'triggers'. If it's like mine and you are watching TV while eating dinner, listen to/watch a podcast or TED talk instead. If you end up spending a ton of time on YouTube or Facebook, set up something like SelfControl (or the PC equivalent Cold Turkey) to make sure that you can't use those things during times that you have blocked off for work.
For mac users, here's a list of stuff that you can use (note that I'm not vouching for any app in particular, but they all seem useful to someone): http://mac.appstorm.net/roundups/productivity-roundups/15-ma...
[+] [-] Jack77|12 years ago|reply
Try starting small. At least an hour today of no wasting time on unproductive activities. Then increase gradually.
Might also be a good idea to add obstacles to these activities such as hiding the icon for your browser in five different folders before you can open it, deleting the facebook app on your smartphone, or even packing away you video game consoles. While a completely different theme, a book called the happiness advantage has a chapter on adding obstacles to nudge yourself in the right direction. http://www.amazon.com/The-Happiness-Advantage-Principles-Per...
[+] [-] denzen|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] k-mcgrady|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nathanvanfleet|12 years ago|reply
I kind of obsess over some things (succulent plants, leather footwear recently) but that's the "most productive" my surfing entails. I feel like it's maybe my IT job, where I am idle all day and not challenged, that has trained me to do this sort of activity. I wish I could get a real job doing iOS development but until then I'm trying to fill my personal time with it.
It's even the case where the day is over and I realize I could have swept up my house or organized those papers or whatever. Kind of damning. But I think it's just that I bottom out sometimes after getting 5+ rejections from job applications.
I've TRIED escapism but for some reason I just can't suspend myself enough to get into it.
[+] [-] yoodenvranx|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] forgottenpaswrd|12 years ago|reply
You are not the first human to become addicted, nor will be the only one. There are people out there that have been in a worse situation than you and that have gone out of addictions.
You should find those people, meet them and get out of drinking. Over years you made a path that you have to undo. This will take years, like it took you to create it.
Your wife and kids did the right thing: to stop supporting your addiction. It is time for you to take steps.
I have studied a lot of psychology but I can't help you because it would be like trying to explain quantum physics before learning basic math. But there is people out there that really know what steps you could take for getting out and doing great things with your life.
[+] [-] aestra|12 years ago|reply
I don't mean to be offensive but...
This can work, however it might not work depending on who you find. Many former addicts I personally know have replaced their drug habit with a religion habit. They are actively preaching religion at almost all times. This is probably due to the twelve step programs. If you aren't into religion or being preached at, you could be turned off by hanging around these people and thinking that's how your become if you quit, or you need religion to keep you from drinking.
I just know an addict, he avoids getting help because he believes that the 12 step programs are offensive. (I share the same opinion - however I acknowledge they work for some people and that's good - I just disagree they should be the "go to" programs for everyone) He knows AA doesn't work for him, but he doesn't know there are non-religious programs and people who have gotten better without religion.
Disclaimer: The following post is entirely my own experience. It might not reflect everyone's experience. It may or may not be useful. I am just an atheist who knows many former addicts. I have read the AA "big book" some, and I couldn't stand how they treated non-believers. They basically said non-believers can't get better without accepting the Judeo-Christian God. It quotes the bible excessively. Anyone who says AA isn't a religious organization is being dishonest or very selective.
[+] [-] Dewie|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zealon|12 years ago|reply
Many people with ADD/ADHD end up in the IT business. Drinking and drug problems, nicotine and caffeine addiction, high-risk behaviours and family issues are very common among ADD/ADHD people.
The reason behind this: low dopamine and norepinefrine levels in the ADD/ADHD brain. Those low levels create a very high reward threshold, so people with ADD/ADHD tend to unconsciously seek for strong or risky stimulus.
HTH
[+] [-] Tossrock|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scotth|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] easy_rider|12 years ago|reply
Yes. I've never been officially tested, think I slipped the early detection nets. I could read before I went to elementary. I surpassed everyone in basic calculus easily. Usually got bored, and started clowning around a lot. It was a Montessori [1] school and this made me surpass my classmates by about 1,5 year in certain classes like math. I have really poor eyesight, and had really big glasses, so yeah I got messed around with a lot, stood my ground, got into a lot of fights, switched school while skipping a year.
In our schools it is normal that you sit in smaller groups with your classmates, so yeah they did single me out when I got distracted all the time, but this never was sufficient and got kicked out of class a lot of time.
Then when my father died when I was 11 after about a year of fighting with cancer, they started attributing my behavior to that stress factor. (ugh, I told them to eat my shorts, and got strongly opinionated about pediatric workers:) ).
I did do a lot of petty things around that time that would give me thrills. I did manage to spur interest in computers from a very young age which kinda saved me I guess :-) (read on), and impressed my friends with "hacking" 3 digit bicycle code-locks. A lot of pranking, lighting fires. I got into alcohol in my last year of elementary.
I went to a pretty elite high-school when I was just 12. My sister went to the same one, and was a couple years ahead (she finished. I never couldn't cut the two hour a day study requirements. The interpretation of my problematic behavior had already been passed along as info to my high-school teachers (which is usual here). Subsequently I don't think they ever considered ADD/ADHD. In the second year got kicked out of 9/10 classes. My reputation preceded me, and it usually worked to get the class to quiet down by kicking me out. So they started calling me literally a disturbance that was undermining my classmates education.
I went to homework class when I failed the second year for the first time. I ended up sitting around with a bunch of kids just like me: Most of us smoked pot, were all pretty intelligent. And we were great about lying about the amount of homework we had. Enjoyed the free tea and cookies. One of the pediatrics by then said I had ADHD. But I was never hyperactive really. They wanted to put me on Ritalin. My mother was against it, but gave me the choice and I obliged.
After that I switched to a somewhat lower education system in high-school, which made me pass everything without doing anything other than smoke a lot of weed and singling myself out in the class, and just paid attention to the teachers, which worked fine if I was baked.
I've been experimenting with psychedelics since I was 15. First time I took MDMA was age 17. The list of drugs I have experimented with is impressive.
I am still a daily pot smoker, although I found Green Tea, L-Theanine [2] extract and even mild anti-anxiety or anti-depressants to work for me as well. I pick the first two since they are not physically addictive. HOWEVER, they all make me sleepy at some point, and I sometimes f up by power-napping for too long, then battle insomnia at night. This sucks.
I did some Ephederine back in the days when it was still legal, but for lulz, not because I thought it would help my condition. Other than that, never did stimulants (except for MDMA @ party's) until I was around 23-24. I have found stimulants to be extremely addictive to me, so I really shouldn't be near them. Although low dose amphetamines and Methylphenidate do make me a highly productive, I start abusing them really fast, which fast-tracks down into watching a lot of porn. Also, it KILLS my appetite and I've been lean since forever, so it just makes me lose a lot of weight.
I don't wanna go to my doctor to get a script because of these reasons. But I still struggle a lot with finding a balance.
I have been working for companies since the age of 16. I have been self employed freelancer for a year now, and also got a house and mortgage at around the same time. My motivation usually involves paying the bills now :(
When I have interesting new projects lined up (like now), I get highly motivated. But the 10 minute PHP hack I happily postpone until the last possible second.
So yes all in all, I also attribute dopamine. It is also really hard to explain to people why you don't "just do choir x" if you know it will make "choir y & z" easier, or just alleviates stress in general; my brain just obliges. I really really struggle with this.
My saviors for being productive are THC and L-Theanine [2], and it kinda sucks. Amphetamines make me work for hours straight until I finish all the amps and hardly eat. And weed makes me eat a lot and sleep a lot..
Also I do not recommend smoking weed at all!!! You should be vaping it :P
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori_education
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theanine
[+] [-] middle334|12 years ago|reply
I was a "high functioning" alcoholic; 35 years in the software business, and I've worked for companies I know you've heard of, and you've almost certainly used my products. 15 years ago I was drinking 750ml of liquor a day. Lost a few jobs, was living in filth, and was about to be homeless.
Long story made short, I got into detox and then AA, changed pretty much everything in my life that wasn't working and haven't had a drink since. First couple years were intense, and I still go to AA meetings every week. It's a maintenance thing. I know I can't drink again.
It can get better, but you can't do it yourself. If you're a heavy drinker, get medical help in the first few days because withdrawal can kill you. I think you'll find your employer amazingly helpful and supportive.
[I'm extremely skeptical of solutions that involve other substances. I guess if it works, it works, but I'm not going to get much out of talking to you about it.]
[+] [-] ciokan|12 years ago|reply
I have nicotine issues but I stopped smoking in favor of e-cigs. Nicotine is not that bad, the cigs are killing you not nicotine itself.
I also find doing sport to change my mentality a lot. You start looking different, you value yourself more when your body changes and you won't want to go back. Give it a try. Good luck to you!
[+] [-] ludoo|12 years ago|reply
I followed your same trajectory (cigarettes -> ecigs), then found Swedish snus, much much simpler than ecigs (no batteries, liquids, etc.), 100+ yrs of history so no unknown long term side-effects, and all the nicotine you need plus some. You might want to give it a try, and stop inhaling stuff. :)
[+] [-] vishnugupta|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Jxnathan|12 years ago|reply
Since gas stations started selling it 3 years ago, I became addicted and when they were banned from selling it I had to find more. I found it online and have been ordering it every since. I leave work early sometimes so I can go smoke it. The only downside I've noticed, is that I'm less sociable (in person) because of how I look when I'm high (red eyes, droopy eyelids) and it makes me tired extremely fast. Sometimes I will wake up at my computer desk wondering when I fell asleep or how long I've been out. I'm sure it's probably not good on my lungs either, but I smoke cigarettes so I'm used to knowing I'm harming my body internally. I just love the way it makes me feel, almost like a reward. I use it as an award for coding something beautiful. "Oh that code actually worked?! Time to smoke."
I hope we both find help. We need it.
[+] [-] terranstyler|12 years ago|reply
Also, FWIW, my wife is a behavioral therapist and already treated a number of addicted people. She says you learn this kind of "bad" behaviors if, given a problem, they are the "only" or "most successful" behaviors you know and you repeat them for a long time.
Treatment then is to identify
- why you think it's the only behavior you know or the most appropriate
- what your definition of a "successful behavior" is
- what are other appropriate behaviors
- how to deal with situations in which your "bad behavior" usually occurs and how to substitute the bad by one of the good ones.
Disclaimer: I have no psychological background whatsoever, this is just my view on the things.
[+] [-] shawnee_|12 years ago|reply
The only people who can understand are those who've been through it and found a way to put the brakes on. It's worth testing out.. my test found the world a whole lot better with the brakes fully engaged at a complete stop, so that's where I've been for a while now.
There are people out there -- young and old, men and women, wealthy and poor, god freaks and atheists alike who've done it. Find them, listen with an open mind and among them there will surely be someone you can relate to who can help you learn about what worked for them.
[+] [-] at-fates-hands|12 years ago|reply
Mine actually was and I watched helplessly as one of my parents went to the brink of death before sobering up. It was a huge wake up call for me. I went cold turkey and never looked back.
I feel like I was lucky. It happened to me when I was at a crossroads. I had landed a nice corporate gig, finally had health insurance and a decent pay check. Everyone I worked with was like me. Young and loved to party. I could've easily gone either way.
After watching the near destruction of our family, I just felt like this was waiting for me if I kept going down the path I was on. In a sense, I was able to see my future before me, and had the wisdom to simply say, "This is not what I want. This is not something I want to put my future family through."
>>>> my test found the world a whole lot better with the brakes fully engaged at a complete stop, so that's where I've been for a while now.
Amen brother. Glad you found the strength and courage. Hopefully OP will too and make a go of it to get clean.
I've been dry for over 10 years and I don't touch the stuff at all, ever. For me, it was the only way I could and feel confident it wouldn't come back and get me.
[+] [-] stef25|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DonGateley|12 years ago|reply
Yes, it was AA that supported me through it. No, I am not religious now and wasn't then. I was just willing to suspend disbelief long enough to try something. I am at a loss to explain why it worked but that doesn't matter.
Despite what many people think AA requires no faith or belief of any kind beyond acceptance of the fact of your situation.
Many read "Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity" as a statement of belief in a spiritual solution. It is not that at all, it is merely a hypothetical that is pretty hard to deny on the face of it. Bill and Bob were really, really smart.
Take that hypothetical, suspend disbelief, do the recommended prayer and meditation with the caveat "I don't know if this has any real meaning but, whatever" if you need that and see what happens. That's what I did. I don't question the mystery of my recovery I just marvel at it. You can choose your eventual spiritual path or none at all later in the game but you have to have a game left to play to do that.
In summary, believe nothing but try anything.
[+] [-] Snail_Commando|12 years ago|reply
I've struggled with addiction and I've made decisions that I'm ashamed of and disgusted with. There was a period of my life when I was also hopeless. I thought that I had lost everything. In a sense, it was true. (Rather, I destroyed most of what I had and subsequently lost the remaining pieces.)
Despite all of that, it does get better. It took me far too long to accept that.
The fact that you are posting here tells me that on some level you are ready to get better. Recognition of the problem begets hope.
Maintaining an attitude of "it doesn't get better" turns out to be a recursive function. Since lives are finite, the base case turns out to be total self-destruction.
At each time step, each recursive call, sustained hopelessness only begets more hopelessness.
Not only do the effects of addiction and hopelessness compound, but you get a first row seat. You watch the function expand, you see every call. You literally destroy yourself in a slow, humiliating, dangerous, and deliberate fashion.
A friend of mine liked to quote a man named Albert J. LaChance, he wrote: "Addiction is a slow form of suicide- suicide on the installment plan."
Whichever metaphor you choose, one thing is clear: changing your attitude is a necessary (but not sufficient) prerequisite for recovery.
You are obviously intelligent, so it should go without saying, there is no avoiding the fact a chemical addiction is a uniquely difficult problem to solve. Fortunately, it is a problem that a great deal of science is expended upon. And there are many ways to receive medical treatment.
Tedious self-help meetings and hollow platitudes are NO substitute for scientifically validated medical treatment. In your case, it is essential that you have medical intervention while you detox.
(Self-help is very helpful to some, and it does have a reported effectiveness of (last I heard) 10 - 50% (surely, a study carried out with utmost statistical rigor!)
Self-help meetings aren't right for me, but I will vouch for their occasional effectiveness.
Should you choose to follow the self-help branch of your recovery timeline, be aware that the self-help phase comes after the detox branch. All future recovery branches of your recovery timeline form after the medical detox node.)
You need medicine and science right now!
Alcohol withdrawal can kill late stage addicts. You wrote six months ago that you attempted a cold turkey solo-detox and experienced DTs. Those suck. They are also a sign that you need to be extra cautious in your recovery.
When you go to detox, go to a licensed recovery center where a doctor can monitor you. Usually this means a hospital equipped with mental health facilities. An ER will suffice if you are out of other options or are having seizures. You can also go to a rehabilitation center (with a competent medical staff)! The last option might start your detox and then segue into a 28 day (or longer) program.
Alcohol is perhaps the most dangerous drug to detox from. (Perhaps surprising to some, you won't die from heroin withdrawals.)
You can (and should) get medical leave from your employer for treatment. I'm fairly certain it's illegal for them to deny that. (Since you are a competent developer, I'm assuming you work at a company with benefits.)
If you do not have health insurance, please contact your local medicaid office.
Please do this. For your the mother of your child, for your kids. For the person in the future who you will come across who needs help with their addiction. But most of all, for you.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This last part is my favorite aspect of hacker news. I get to tell someone that they are wrong.
I used to have your attitude. I even attempted suicide. By the grace of faulty nylon, I'm still here.
"It doesn't get better." <- That quote is factually incorrect. I'm just one instance of its disproof.
Now, to break Hacker News guidelines with extreme prejudice:
IT DOES GET BETTER. PLEASE, PLEASE SEEK MEDICAL TREATMENT. IT DOES WORK. YOU ARE WRONG. NA NA NA NA NA.
If you don't post an email in your profile in the next few hours so that I can talk to you. Via email, skype, phone, whatever. I will reply to my comment with an email address so that you can contact me when you are ready to talk and/or seek treatment.
[+] [-] negativity|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aestra|12 years ago|reply
This is correct and very very important. Your brain is physically changed. Alcohol's primary effect is the increase in stimulation of the GABAA receptor, promoting central nervous system depression. With repeated heavy consumption of alcohol, these receptors are desensitized and reduced in number, resulting in tolerance and physical dependence. When alcohol consumption is stopped too abruptly, the person's nervous system suffers from uncontrolled synapse firing. This can result in symptoms that include anxiety, life threatening seizures, delirium tremens, hallucinations, shakes and possible heart failure.[55][56] Other neurotransmitter systems are also involved, especially dopamine, NMDA and glutamate.[12][57]. Please do it with professional help, in a hospital setting. An addition recovery/psychiatric hospital, not a "normal" hospital. Search online or in the yellow pages. You may have to travel some to get there. I've seen many addicts withdraw and some have no problem, but some have life threatening seizures and other absolutely terrible physical symptoms. I heard one person say "this is the worst pain I've ever experienced in my life!" Also, not being able to leave prevents you from drinking to stop the symptoms, they are locked facilities, when you sign yourself in you agree to be there for at least 3 days. The hospital will provide you with proper aftercare as well, tailored to your needs. They will also control your symptoms with medication, depending on what the symptoms are. You get checked up on constantly. Getting the psychiatric care from the hospital (and followup) will help you get to the root of the problem - why you drink - and you can treat that, instead of just treating the addition itself.
All this care is generally covered by insurance.
If you aren't very religious, please skip AA and all the twelve step programs. They are really offensive to atheists and non believers. (I have read part of the AA "big book" and had to stop because I couldn't take any more. The section on "what if I don't believe in God" was especially offensive) Seek CBT or other non-twelve step treatments. Again, the hospital will help with finding a program for you and referring you there, often taking care of the paperwork for you.
You have acknowledged you have a problem and wish to get help. This is the most important step. Please note: this will not be an easy journey, this will be difficult. You will have to work for it. You probably will have to change many things about yourself, including your thinking.
Good luck and I truly wish you the best. I am always happy when addicts get better, I grew up with an addict parent, and I know what it can do to yourself and others around you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholism
[+] [-] seeingfurther|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] goatforce5|12 years ago|reply
It's really good, and there might be something in it for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZVWIELHQQY
[+] [-] bobsgame|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yiedyie|12 years ago|reply
Can we blame programming or isolation when coding, is this a professional disability?
Too bad that there is no real interest in studying this issues from a psychological/sociological point of view.
[+] [-] madaxe_again|12 years ago|reply
I've tried stopping my various vices, but without treating the stimulus loop, it's nigh on impossible. When I step off the grid and go travelling for a month... I suddenly no longer feel the need for any of them. This is a huge relief to me, as it means I realise that this behaviour isn't something endemic to myself, rather a habituation as a result of the feedback loop I allowed to grow.
Step out. Do something totally different. My promise to myself that I will do this, and soon, is the only thing keeping me remotely sane. At the very least, hit the road for a month and see somewhere new, meet someone new, and see if you're the same person. You might be surprised.
[+] [-] Dale1|12 years ago|reply
Have you ever tried just cutting down? Even just a little bit? I don't believe in this "Just stop and never drink again" rubbish I think it has to be done in baby steps.
Anyway, hope you're okay and whatever you do don't go the religion route. It's a dangerous path to tread especially with the types who run these things.
[+] [-] philbarr|12 years ago|reply
Your brain lies to you to try and get you to smoke so that it can get it's nicotine fix...
[+] [-] toerojas|12 years ago|reply
Alcoholics Anonymous and other 12 step programs have a high drop out rate (about 50% within the first 90 days) and are not backed by science, so you should talk with an addiction medicine doctor first (and go through an appropriate detox program).
That said, what makes 12 step programs effective is the support community you build in them, so find some people you feel safe talking with and who you can call anytime. In fact, find as many of them as you can. You have ~200 people on HN who took the time to comment, so there's a start.
[+] [-] annasaru|12 years ago|reply
Being part of a group will accelerate your recovery , drain your negativity and heal. Talk is cheap so I will stop here.