Ask HN: How do I deal with the "unpaid overtime crowd"?

[EC1]

The moment I step through my work door I set a timer for 7.5 hours. Once that timer is up, I close all my work, and go home.

There are 4 people on my team, who I honestly think just do not have their own lives. They come in at 8am, and leave around 10. Every single day.

I am at the bottom of our "scoreboard" for bug fixes, yet I work the most efficiently. They have 3x more fixes than I because they just choose to sit here for hours and hours and hours and just work, I don't get it.

Now I look bad in comparison, management doesn't give a shit (obviously) and I have already had my job threatened. "I have no problem buying out the your contract, you're the least effective on our team". And "Why can't you be like _________ and __________?"

My favourite part is, I designed the entire UI/UX for the app, I coded all of it for over 15 mobile devices. These people do not have the same skill set as I do. I explained everything to management, and they just told me "I don't buy it, I expect you to unofficially make up yours hours".

Now they want us to come in on Saturday. Of course the rest of my team has no problem with this, but I run my own company and any second I can find that is free, I'm using, and bet your ass I'm working on my own shit on the weekend.

I've never been so stressed out in my entire life.

[codegeek]

First, kudos for doing what every one of us should do i.e. value our own time. It is amazing to see a lot of people who just don't value their time.

This mentality that somehow sitting in office for long hours and cranking shit out is just so horrible. I really believe that this has to do a lot with the individual employee/person rather than just management. Yes, I am not counting out the pointy haired bosses and all but to a great extent, it is up to you, the employee, to dictate how long will you be working on a given day. Sure, some of us love sitting in office because we probably have nothing better to do (been there) but learning to value your time is really underrated. People, learn to value your own time and you will suddenly see how everyone else around you respects you for that. /rant

Now, just to add the other side, creating value is a lot more than spending x hours in office. Like you said, you designed a major component of the app which is what matters. Yes, there may be days when you want to crank that stuff out like there is no tomorrow because you are excited about it, go for it. And yes, go work on some weekends if needed for the team (release/critical fix etc). Take one for the team but do it wisely. Let everyone know that you are willing to raise your hand but you are not a doormat.

In your case, since are you doing the right thing, your company does not deserve you and based on what you said, they already don't care about you. So like everyone else is saying and you know the answer anyway, find something better and move on.

[rdudek]

I totally agree with this comment. Being able to value your time is a crucial life skill. Pulling in some overtime hours once in a while is a good thing. Being expected to do so every week is a toxic thing. Been there, done that. Start looking elsewhere while you still have a job, it's so much easier to do so and less pressure during interviews.

[jhonovich]

His company does not deserve him?

The guy, by his own admission, is more focused on his own company that he works on nights and weekends. Why would any startup want a guy like that unless he was radically better than everyone else?

[basseq]

ISSUE #1 - Barring unpaid overtime, what are their expectations? You're working 37.5 hours per week (7.5 × 5), which is less than the "standard" 40 (though you're still considered full-time for the sake of benefits, etc.). It's unclear whether your 7.5 hour figure includes "non-productive time" (e.g., lunch, breaks, etc.).

ISSUE #2 - Quantitatively, your numbers may be hyperbole, but they don't bear out your claims. Your co-workers have 3x as many fixes as you, but they only work 2.6x as much as you (assuming 14 hours / day × 7 days / week). By these numbers, they are 15% more effective than you are. (And they're harder workers.)

Fundamentally there's a culture mismatch. You think you have differentiating skills—they don't agree. You think you are more efficient—either they don't agree or that's not their metric. You want to work a 40 hour week—they want people who will kill themselves.

There are a couple options (e.g., going hourly), but I don't think they're realistic given the context. After all, your effective hourly rate is way higher than someone who takes home the same salary but works twice as much. So I agree with the other commentators: find an opportunity that's a better fit for you.

[workhere-io]

You're working 37.5 hours per week (7.5 × 5), which is less than the "standard" 40

I don't know where OP lives, but several countries have work weeks that are less than 40 hours. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-time

[MortenK]

This is my personal opinion as a software development manager, so take it as just that.

A developer that always leave at exactly 17.00 and adamantly refuse to come in on a Saturday, gives a very clear signal that they don't give a shit about the company, the product or the team. They're there to get paid.

While most employers realize that your work isn't (or should be) your single burning passion, it is very negative for team morale when one of the guys always flakes out when the clock hits 17 regardless of the fire in the kitchen.

I knew a developer who always left at exactly 17.00, because "that's what they are paying me for". On several occasions, he deployed breaking changes to production five minutes before leaving. Other devs had to come in and work very late to get the system back online. While he is technically in his right to leave at 5, he causes his team much grief and as such is not an asset.

The other side of the coin is that lots of software companies, really has little to no control over software development. Especially startups run by young, inexperienced guys rarely have any idea what they are doing. This is a company where crisis' occurs daily or weekly instead of maybe once every couple of months.

They make up for this by rampant overtime, and excuse this with BS about being dedicated and a team player. You know you're in such an organization if they talk about how "that's what the industry is like".

Your organizations work culture seem like that - very long hours and (seemingly) no extraordinary reason for coming in on Saturday.

If that's the case, then leave. There's not much that can be done except a total change of top management.

But if it's a rare occurrence that they call you in on Saturday and there is a good explanation for it, then buckle up and help your team mates.

[RyanZAG]

> I knew a developer who always left at exactly 17.00, because "that's what they are paying me for".

What? But that is what you're paying him for. You realize how employment works, surely? You give him some money in exchange for the use of his time and skills to perform a task your business requires. The results of his work are owned by the business who take ownership of any benefits arising from the work. If you want him to be involved in the company, you're going to have to involve him in the rewards by giving him a part of the company.

If there is an emergency and an employee does need to stay later, you need to pay that employee overtime - generally at a higher multiple of his standard pay. The reason for this is because a business needs to avoid having emergencies and the best way to do that is to make having an emergency an expensive thing. Then everyone will work to avoid them.

For the OP: just leave and get a new job. If you're able to put together software as well as you say, then you probably don't even need a job. Find a business co-founder and start your own company.

[noir_lord]

> A developer that always leave at exactly 17.00 and adamantly refuse to come in on a Saturday, gives a very clear signal that they don't give a shit about the company, the product or the team. They're there to get paid.

If once in a while something crops up that requires staying after 5 then that is fine however the expectation should be that all the developers go home at 5pm

> While most employers realize that your work isn't (or should be) your single burning passion, it is very negative for team morale when one of the guys always flakes out when the clock hits 17 regardless of the fire in the kitchen.

If there are constant fires in the kitchen you might want to find out who keeps lighting them, if's not the guy leaving at 5 then I fail to see the issue.

> I knew a developer who always left at exactly 17.00, because "that's what they are paying me for". On several occasions, he deployed breaking changes to production five minutes before leaving. Other devs had to come in and work very late to get the system back online. While he is technically in his right to leave at 5, he causes his team much grief and as such is not an asset.

Pushing to production shortly before going home is a separate issue to whether he leaves on time or not, a developer leaving on time should be expected, a developer pushing breaking changes and leaving should not.

The other stuff I wholeheartedly agree with.

[jason_slack]

I dont mean any disrespect, but you sound like the same type of manager he has now....

So you have a case where there is a "clock puncher" that is pushing out changes, leaving and then issues occur that others must stay and clean up after.

Would you share if your point of view would be different if that "clock puncher" was your best developer and nobody had to stay late to clean up after his/her mess?

[ozchrisb]

"A company that always wants me to work past 17.00 and expects me to come in on a Saturday, gives a very clear signal that they don't give a shit about me, the product or the team. They're hiring me to get paid."

[toadi]

Well if it's an employee why should he be taking risks? He's paid until 17h... We can be flexible no doubt, but if one week you work 60 hours to meet a deadline next week you should only work 20. Flexibility works in 2 directions.

If the big payday comes it's not the employee who wins! You aren't betting with equity as employee...

[joesmo]

If you expect people to work more than eight hours or on Saturdays, pay them by the hour. Otherwise, any negative feelings you may have are your own fault. If you can't pay them, don't have such ridiculous expectations. It's that simple.

EDIT: Also, don't release after noon (or some other set time) and never release on Fridays. This is just common sense if builds have problems. That way, no one has to stay late.

[copergi]

>They're there to get paid

Everyone is there to get paid.

>when one of the guys always flakes out when the clock hits 17

Doing your job is not "flaking out".

[notastartup]

I really hope you don't start a company and have people work on the weekends and threaten them with their job if they refuse.

[pauleastlund]

So I'll lead with "you need to leave." Huge, obvious cultural mismatch.

With that said, I think it's bizarre how some of the commenters here are vilifying your management. I don't know the specifics of your company, but you can't run a startup at crunch time with devs putting in 7.5 hour days. Even at Google, which I considered extremely cushy and laid-back, there was the overt expectation -- repeatedly referenced in internal literature -- that engineer-weeks were about 50 hours long.

I think it's great that you've identified the level of work-life balance that will work for you and are standing your ground. But you need to understand that working 7.5 hours days is not some sort of universal human right. In the (near) future when you search for jobs, you need to communicate that preference up front and make sure that management is on board with it rather than taking for granted that they will be.

[schrodinger]

I don't agree with this. Why not be able to have a startup succeed with 7.5 hour days?

For me, I can put in a day longer than that when I need to, in an extreme circumstance. But if it becomes often, I just can't be productive longer than that. I loses ability to focus, and start accumulating burn out. My throughput is greater at 7.5 hour days than 10 hour days.

Of course, if there's like a week leading up to a launch where you need to crunch, that's different. I've been there, and have been able to be super productive like that for a week. But it can't be sustained... I feel like I'm basically borrowing some productivity from the future, and that debt will catch up to me eventually.

[joesmo]

"but you can't run a startup at crunch time with devs putting in 7.5 hour days"

You can at 8 hours a day / 40 hours / week. The only reason more hours would be required from engineering is bad management that has unrealistic expectations. So what if it takes an extra week to develop the product? It won't matter. You can most certainly run any company with with a 40 hour workweek. If you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it.

An eight hour workday may not be a universal human right, but it is well understood to be the standard workday. Any deviation from this like the ten hour days you describe should be stated up front by the employer.

[gopher1]

If you've signed a contract that states working hours are between 9-5, I think it's not his job to communicate any diverging preference, that would be the job of management. If 50 hour work weeks are expected, put it in the damn contract.

[CocaKoala]

They're simultaneously threatening to fire you and also begging you to do more work; those are polar opposites. Do you feel like they need the work and are trying to use the (empty) threat of termination as motivation, or do you feel like they're trying to take advantage of you and get something for free?

Either way, you should probably quit. But if you can figure out what they actually need, it might help reduce your stress a little bit. Only a little, though, because having abusive managers or coworkers is really terrible and wears at you in a way that's pretty hard to describe. So you should probably quit.

[calcsam]

Leave. You're a bad fit for the company culture. The company culture is a bad fit for you.

[beauzero]

...best answer.

[jason_slack]

Its hard to do, but I really think you need to leave.

Give your 2 weeks but be OK if they let you go on the spot.

If you dont have a lot of money, maybe you could put in a few more weeks before you quit and literally try and save every penny you can. If you have vacation time in the bank hopefully you get paid out for it.

I've been in situations where the "Boss" doesn't have a clear technical understanding between different roles and it is very hard. It feels like a Dilbert and/or Office Space moment to me.

[thedufer]

> If you have vacation time in the bank hopefully you get paid out for it.

I was under the impression that is legally mandated (at least where I live - NYC). Is that not true?

[once_was]

I once worked in a cafe in my teens, we would be paid up until half an hour after close to do cleaning. Mopping the floor was the last task I did, it would usually end up running 5 or 10 minutes over the time I got paid. Your post makes me imagine dropping the mop half way through finishing the floors and walking backwards out the door while flipping off my boss because that half hour ticked over.

"The moment I step through my work door I set a timer for 7.5 hours." This is a terrible work ethic. You set a timer? I don't agree with doing unpaid overtime either, you certainly won't see me in the office on a Saturday, but sometimes things need to be completed before you leave for the day. But maybe that's just my opinion working in a remote office in a vastly different time zone to head office where my work needs to be delivered.

Although not a metric, I did chuckle that you state your co-workers work twice as long as you (14hrs vs 7.5) yet have three times as many fixes as you and then reference the reason for this is the time they spend at work.

[hubtree]

If the stress is overwhelming you, then you should see if there is a solution to remove the stress. If not, then you should probably quit. It isn't worth what stress can do to your health and relationships.

If they need you to do more work beyond your 40 hour week, to the point that they threaten to fire you, then your supervisor likely realizes they need you.

If you find that at 5pm that you are twenty minuets away from finishing something up, then you should consider doing that from time to time, just to show you're on the team.

I am lucky enough to be in a position that I am on salary, but I am still paid overtime if the work load moves beyond 40 hours a week. If I need to work an extra 15 to 30 minutes to finish up what I'm working on, I don't count that as overtime. If I get a ticket that needs addressed, but there isn't time to do it in the normal work day, that counts as overtime.

Maybe consider proposing something similar. If what they really need is a little more help, but don't want to hire a new dev, they may be willing to come up with a compromise.

Good luck.

[kohanz]

As stated by other, the obvious answer is to leave.

What is puzzling to me is that you sound like a skilled and confident developer, yet seem afraid of wading into the job market. Are your local employment options that bad?

[noir_lord]

They can be that bad depending where you live.

I've got 16 years experience with Linux, more than 20 years experience of programming, more than 3-4 years commercial experience on my current stack.

I've written desktop applications for businesses, I've written software for market traders, I've written web based systems for engineering companies.

I still wouldn't want to be looking for a job where I live right now.

[dingaling]

> Are your local employment options that bad?

Well.. I'm not even qualified to apply for job positions in the company where I work, when those positions are for grades two or three rungs lower than me.

And I used to be those positions!

That's the IT job market in the UK these days; infeasible technical criteria in every job posting. 3 years iOS required for a junior developer?

[all_the_things]

Stress isn't good for your clients and your personal relationships. I've had a similar problem, I'm quite insistent on using my own equipment, my recent client said yes to get me move over 4hrs away from my home, then the security team said no once I setup my kit and put down a six months deposit on a flat. I insisted on new equipment or a pay raise for pay in lieu of my slower rate of experience and discomfort which effects my out of hours work. They bought me a new iMac and I'm now technical lead for a reputable sports product. I arrive at 7am and leave at 3pm but turn out 200% more than other members in the team and maintain test coverage +90%. Remember to keep a smile on your face when you discuss it with them though. They'll worry about what you know and what they don't. The first one to lose their manners is usually wrong regardless of the technical details in companies like these.

[elandybarr]

I don't think they necessarily "don't give a shit about the company".

In fact, I think setting appropriate personal boundaries is extremely important. A lot of devs recognize 'hour creep'. You know, stay in a few days until 6, and before too long, it becomes expected. I am saying this as a founder and someone who puts in as many possible hours.

At first, I thought, "Are you guys not really in the game?". But now I recognize that there are only a few people who I should really expect to be on that level, and it should be made explicitly clear from the get-go.

In this case, there is a clear metric that the employee is facing. However, this person certainly adds quite a bit of value.

I think this is worth confronting management over. But I also agree, that if there is a rare occurrence for weekend work, then that is also part of the team. Rather than quit outright, like many suggest, I would confront management very clearly about your personal boundaries and ask them explicitly what is the gulf between their expectations and what you are giving.

[contactmatts]

For reasons like this, I'm not sure I'll go back to a salary model (in favor of hourly model). I value my family time and personal time, but for those times where "the barns burning down", at least I'm compensated for putting out the fire.

(...And if the barn is always burning down, look for a new job.)

[joesmo]

Sounds like management doesn't appreciate you, nor are they competent at what they do. You deserve better. It's commendable and professional to work a set number of hours (~7-8 / day, though it varies). It is unprofessional and a sign of management's failure to ask you to work more, work on weekends, or catch up to hours you don't owe them. It would also be unprofessional for you to bow down to such ridiculous requests. It sounds like you are contributing more than anyone and with your skill-set, you should have no problem finding another job, hopefully one that isn't filled with unprofessional managers who can't manage and demand one work unprofessional hours.

tl;dr: Working more than 8 hours a day is unprofessional (except in rare, extreme circumstances where it is rewarded).

[up_and_up]

> They come in at 8am, and leave around 10

> Now they want us to come in on Saturday.

I would definitely GTFO!

Productivity != hours sitting at a desk.

I have worked at a company like this and the issue was definitely poor management direction and poor technical discipline.

[emperorcezar]

In addition to having a bug "scoreboard". That is so easily gamed it not funny. Grab all the easy bugs, get the top score.

[ctb_mg]

My two cents is that this situation is more prolific than you might think.

My own theory is that most young engineers start out by valuing their own time -- but they find themselves in a situation like this. They then relegate themselves to working long hours to please management, and eventually they work inefficiently all the time and are OK with that.

They're too withdrawn/introverted to stand up to management or take the leap to find a new job.

Regardless, like many others said, time to quit. They're not a good fit for you and a "bugfix scoreboard" sounds absolutely vile.

[fsk]

Look for a new job. Your relationship with them can't be salvaged.

Also, this is why you keep a 6-12 month emergency fund, in case you have to walk away or get fired.

[bmm6o]

If you aren't already looking for a new job, why aren't you? It sounds like a bad fit and they don't appreciate your contributions.

[stefan_kendall3]

You posted this looking for support for what you know you need to do.

Quitting isn't fun, but sometimes it's the only way to solve a problem.

[JDDunn9]

Sounds like they are trying to exploit you. There are plenty of companies out there that want you to think of them as "more than a job", but don't want to give you equity or pay competitive wages. Start taking interviews for other jobs. Once you have on lined up, you can either quit, or use it as leverage to talk to your boss.