I'm considering going to a front-end coding school and trust the people here more than other forums. I'm curious if those who attended, or know someone who attended, enjoyed or disliked the experience and why. Is it worth saving 10-20K and just subscribe to Lynda or Pluralsight? Thanks in advanced.
I went to the "graduation ceremony" of a NY school's 10 week program about a year and a half ago. (It wasn't GA) A few observations:
* The quality of the "graduates" varied immensely. Some graduates had been programmers before starting the course, and those students were just there to sharpen their skills. Others had no background in programming.
* All of the projects were group projects, so weaker students were able to hide behind stronger students and couldn't actually point at any code that they had been solely responsible for.
* All of the projects had been conceived of by the school, and so were very very limited in ambition and scope. (It took some digging to find this out, the groups were presenting their projects as if they had conceived of them)
* One of the student told me nearly verbatim: "We learned more in 10 weeks than we would have in our first 2 years of a traditional C.S. degree." I told this student that that was preposterous and to please never repeat that sentence again.
* The students had obviously been well prepped on their interviewing techniques and showed alot of enthusiasm and (over)confidence. But the average proficiency level was way below junior programmer status, and for 2/3 of the students I didn't see how they could work without active mentoring.
* I kept in touch with one of the students after graduation, and he said that virtually all of the students received offers . So hey, the demand for programmers is really that high regardless of quality. I couldn't see hiring one of these devs for what seemed (at the time) to be a 70-80k starting salary range, when another 20k would get me a legitimate junior developer. Of course, as I said before there were some quality candidates coming out of the program, but those were only the students who were programmers before embarking on the course.
I didn't go to one of those 3-Month programs, but I've interviewed some people who have.
Just like any other education program, you're going to get out what you put in. There is only so much that can be covered in a 3 month period of time. When starting from, essentially, nothing the instructors have to really push on the gas to get through a lot of material to get their students to a place where they can start being productive.
Unfortunately this means that a lot of fundamental programming concepts are glazed over, or skipped all together. That's not inherently bad, but the onus falls on the student to really research more, and apply lessons taught in different ways. A lot of people don't have the motivation to do this - and that really shows through when interview time comes around. It's very easy to spot the graduates who followed the program and haven't put in the extra time to understand all the information they've been given.
I think the key is to really evaluate what your expectations are. No one here can tell you which course to take, or which is best for you. It really depends on the style of learner that you are, how much work you're going to put in, and what you expect to come out the other side of the process with.
TL;DNR: don't ask whether or not a bootcamp is worth it; ask whether not you're considering the RIGHT ONE. Bootcamp > online courses.
I went through Fullstack Academy in NYC and received five job offers. (Full disclosure--worked as a teaching fellow at Fullstack shortly afterward, so I was on the payroll.) Had one of the best learning experiences of my life there. Absolutely worth the cost of tuition--there are real tangible pedagogical differences between distance/online learning like One Month Rails or Lynda and a physical classroom. You'll be a stronger coder, by an order of magnitude, from an in-person bootcamp.
The signal-to-noise ratio in the bootcamp space is currently EXTREMELY low. Currently, there are really only two data points prospective students can act on 1) the name-brand value of the first-to-market bootcamps, like App Academy and Hacker School, and 2) testimonials and hiring experiences of former students.
Neither of these data points are reliable. Plenty of students fall through the cracks at the oldest, most well-established bootcamps, and anecdotes (like this one, incidentally) can't represent the average experience.
Even though I had a wonderful, incredibly-high-leverage experience at Fullstack, I've known students who have gone through other bootcamps and have had HORRIBLE experiences--lackadaisical instructors working on side projects, courses exclusively by recent grads of the bootcamp with no industry experience, etc.
If you're considering bootcamps, COLLECT AS MANY SIGNALS ABOUT INSTRUCTION QUALITY AS POSSIBLE. This means speaking to former students, speaking to instructors and co-founders (if they're a bootcamp of any quality, they'll allow prospective students to chat with co-founders), sitting in on classes, visiting the school.
The bootcamp space is lucrative, and becoming increasingly crowded. Before someone comes along with a method of ranking them, DO YOUR RESEARCH.
I did Hacker School, which is free to attend, because it's funded by recruiting. It was life-changing, and provided me with a great network that I still talk to on a day-to-day basis with a very, very wide range of experience and interests, and it also landed me a great job, and I'm confident that in the future I can reach out to the Hacker School community again when I'm looking for a new opportunity.
If you're considering any of these "bootcamps" send Hacker School an application. It's not a traditional school, or even a traditional bootcamp, but you'll learn buckets and at the end there's a job fair with many respected companies represented, and a support network to help you find a job that will be a good fit and will pay you fairly.
I was also able to squeeze by on a budget of about $5k for living expenses in NY when I did it, so this would be more expensive (but much better) than online courses, but much cheaper than pay-to-play bootcamps.
Hackerschool is a bit different than what the OP is asking for though.
"I don't know how to program. Can I do Hacker School?
No, sorry. Hacker School is currently only for people who already know how to code. Think of it like a writers workshop. We're here to help people become great novelists, but you have to already know English and be comfortable writing essays." - https://www.hackerschool.com/faq
Sounds like the op doesn't have any experience and wants to learn to code for the first time.
I haven't gone to a coding school, but the ones that teach Ruby on Rails (yes, I now know you're asking about front-end specifically, but that's not the case in the question's title) claim a very high placement rate, certainly higher than what you'd expect for a newbie of 10 weeks of training at home.
I think regardless of the quality of the instruction, the fact is that when you pay $10K+ for anything, you aren't going to schlub it off...in fact, these schools are pretty much run with the expectation that you're treating it as a full-time job during session, learning/working 6-8 hours a day at minimum. As great as the opportunities there are for learn-it-yourself, nothing beats the financial/social pressure of a structured class...and at the very least, employers have some validation that you can handle a structured pace (and part of this validation comes from the reputation of the school).
In fact, I'd argue much of the value of a traditional college degree is simply a signal that says, "Hey, I'm a relatively safe hire because I'm an adult who has figured out how to raise/access $50K-$150K, legally, have passed a battery of competency and social tests, and have managed to get along with hundreds/thousands of other students/faculty for four years without committing an egregious felony"
I did General Assembly's Web Development Immersive program, which emphasized back end a little more. I had no coding experience going in and got my first dev job 3 weeks after I graduated.
I wouldn't have been able to teach myself nearly as much using online resources. I learn much better being accountable to a group for my work, and there were so many times I got stuck and needed to just ask another person for help. I also learned how to work on a dev team, not just in my app-building silo. So, GA was worth it for me.
That being said, it depends on your background and your goals. Learning front end to change careers is different than learning it to be able to better communicate with front end devs at your work.
I personally wouldn't get $10k worth of knowledge from online resources, but your motivation may vary.
I get the sense that not all programs are created equally. I personally attended Hacker School in NYC. I made the decision because I discovered my interest in programming after I had already graduated from college, and at the time I knew very few programmers. A workshop like Hacker School seemed like a great place to go where I could focus on improving my abilities and surround myself with other people who had similar interests. It worked out great. I'm currently employed as a rails developer at a small company and I love what I do. I can honestly say that going to Hacker School was the best decision I ever made.
That being said, in my current position I've interviewed a number of applicants who graduated from rails specific bootcamps and I've been less than impressed. A lot of them seem to be able to build rails applications but have limited or no ability to write ruby code. We had one applicant with an impressive looking portfolio who couldn't tell us how to reverse an array, despite coaching from us.
I get the sense that a lot of the technology specific boot camps do a lot of hand holding and have the students follow a pretty rigidly designed curriculum. The result being that you have a bunch of graduates who technically built some applications, but have little understanding of how they did it.
So what I would ultimately say, is that the value of attending a 3 month program depends almost entirely on which program it is you're thinking of attending. My rule of thumb would be to stay away from technology specific programs and try to find one that focuses more on concepts and principles.
Of course, this is all based on my personal experience, other people here might disagree, and naturally YMMV.
I was the lead instructor for MakerSquare's first cohort, and I've also taught shorter, on-site courses for clients like Comcast (Lord forgive me), Huffington Post, and LinkedIn. I'm also exclusively self-taught, no CS degree. Here's my take.
You need to know your own learning style to make the decision on the investment. I'm pretty obsessive and learn things better on my own working towards a goal than I do in a classroom environment. (I was homeschooled, so whether I thrived in a homeschool environment because my brain works this way, or my brain works this way because I was homeschooled, or some of both, I'm not sure.) This plays out into my real life, too—my wife has found if she sends me follow-up emails on some things, I'm better able to act on it, as I have a lot of trouble retaining auditory information. (She is very gracious.)
But many people thrive in a classroom environment, and for them, a coding school and the energy of being in a room with 30 people driven towards a common goal makes starting the journey a lot easier. So, analyze your own learning style from the past, and weigh this into your decision.
Another angle to consider is that being in a program with MakerSquare is like getting into YC: it buys you access to a lot of wicked intelligent people who you might not get to rub shoulders with otherwise. I know some really, really smart developers in Austin. Many of them mentor MakerSquare students, and the students are privileged to have access to their time and expertise. If I could go back to when I first started learning and pay $20K to have these guys mentor me, I would do it in a heartbeat. But if you go this route, make a conscious effort to seek out their help and learn from them.
Finally, if cost is a major concern, I would look at Austin's MakerSquare program. Cost of living is lower than say SF, tuition is lower (I think, haven't cost compared in a while), and our community is very welcoming to motivated beginner developers.
Good luck! I'm [email protected] if you want to ask me more questions offline. :)
I attended MakerSquare this past spring with 20 other people and it was well worth it. The program was intense, but it taught software engineering principles and everyone that graduated was able to build a full RoR application at graduation. It did not "teach to the test", but instead Almost everyone that I graduated with 4 months ago have found jobs with a better pay than they had been making previously. A couple things to keep in mind:
Pick a school that has a good reputation. The reputation of the school will help you a lot during your job search.
Get ready to work hard! My class worked 6-7 days a week for 9+ hours/day. Cram as much information into your head as you can during the 12 weeks.
Pick a school that has a career services section! This was invaluable for everyone that graduated from MakerSquare. The career services team sets up connections with companies that are hiring and lets them know what to expect from the school's graduates.
So why go to a bootcamp? Yes, you can learn how to code on your own, but you will learn a lot more in the 3 month program than you can on your own in 3 months. The other benefits? Bounce questions off of teachers for a full 3 months (and more). Work with the other students that are there for the same reasons you are. Network with your classmates, other school alumni and professionals in the industry that know about your school. Have a team at your school working to get you hired whenever you need a job. The benefits greatly outweigh the costs if you work hard.
I was part of App Academy's inaugural class, summer 2012, when they taught iOS in 9 weeks instead of RoR in 12. I found them on HN and applied. I didn't enjoy my work anymore and had nothing to lose.
I took it as a summer sabbatical of sorts from my marketing job. When I got back I interviewed for an iOS position at the same company, got it, and spend just under two years learning from an amazing mobile team.
Almost two months ago I left and joined a startup, ironically founded by someone who briefly did App Academy while I was there.
Not only was it incredibly rigorous and tons of fun, it was by far the best career decision I've ever made.
I'm an App Academy graduate from the January 2014 class.
To answer your questions:
I enjoyed the experience. This is by far the easiest question. I had zero prior experience in software engineering or computer science, but I've always been a puzzle-solving sort of person. To go from a life of dishwashing / retail to all-day high-speed learning was absolutely a positive experience.
Is it worth saving money, and just learning on your own? Maybe. In order to get the same result as I would have at a/A, I would have spent a lot more time hunting down answers to questions online, googling naive things like "what does this error mean? why is it still here, I solved the problem!" I also would have needed the self-discipline and insight to understand what exercises would best teach me core concepts, and pad my github with visible work. Finally, I doubt I could have stuck to the timeline. Ruby in two weeks was hard, I don't think I could have done it 100% on my own. For me, it was worth it.
*Did it work? I got two offers in the 85k-90k range. If I'd wanted to look longer, I could have gone higher.
Back in fall 2012, I attended Starter League in Chicago for their 3 months Rails bootcamp. Prior to joining the bootcamp, I had experienced with Rails through Michael Hartl tutorial and by participating in different hackathons. Taking part in SL required an appreciable upfront investment from my part: moving from Montreal to Chicago for three months, $6K tuition fee (at the time), leaving my job and not working for the duration of the program. I am extremely happy with the results and I am now working as a lead data analyst and I am coding in different languages (python, javascript) as part of my daily job. One of the upside of a great bootcamp is the streamlined learning process. Jeff Cohen, the instructor at the time at SL, built an incredible curriculum for students, enabling deep understanding of the underlying mechanics of Rails. Furthermore, the immersion is a very interesting aspect of a bootcamp. Every day, you are surrounded by people who left their job and family to learn to code. These people want to change careers, start a tech business etc. This can be very motivating. Tips: Prior to joining a bootcamp, know exactly what you want from it. Do a bunch of tutorials, read books about coding, participate in hackathons and get to a level where you can build stuff with code. Too many people haven't tried much before joining a bootcamp and expect to get miraculously good at coding. It's not the case. Learning to code is hard, know what you are getting into. Also, if you expect to have a dream job on a silver plater at the end of the bootcamp, this probably won't be the case. You'll have to work hard for it and chances you'll have a few more months of learnings necessary prior to a full-time gig that interests you. You can learn to code online. A bootcamp can speed up the learning process and is a great learning experience and good for networking but it is not required to learn to code. Know exactly what you want from a bootcamp.
I recently talked at length with someone who had just finished one of these programs, and learned that they do an incredible amount of "teaching to the test". That is to say, they very specifically and intentionally designed the program to teach people the things that are typically discussed during interviews. The number one goal didn't seem to be teaching programming or software engineering so much as teaching you how to pass the interview to get a job as a developer.
That said, the person I spoke to had created a project similar in scope and quality to what I'd expect a CS undergrad to do as a class project, and clearly had the ability to get things done. I'd guess someone from such a program could be a good developer, but with big gaps in understanding beneath the surface ability to do Rails or Node.JS or whatever the bootcamp used. If you're only doing html/css/javascript then the coding school is probably a sufficient education to get a web dev/design job.
This is what almost every undergrad comes out of college as. Someone who has the basics of programming but no real idea of what to do. (as expected). But it also shows someone who is 1) trainable, 2) wants to learn, 3) can learn quickly. Hiring managers see these as good qualities to have, and hopefully the camp also provided some connections too.
Went to a 3 month code school. Had multiple, full-time job offers after the program was done. Took one of them. My company has gone back and hired 5 more people from the same program.
Worked out well for me, and I learned much more attending in person than I would have just doing the online stuff (many of which I had pounded through before going to the bootcamp)
I've been a hiring partner at one of these "schools" run by a former colleague. The quality of hires was abysmal overall, and gave me a bad taste for these sorts of places in the future. My fear would be that after attending such a place, you may come out and be hit with a negative opinion of your skills just because of where you learned them.
Even if you can't say which school specifically, can you give more detail about the city or tech stack? I'd imagine Utah + Ruby has different outcomes than San Francisco + Ruby.
Is it something specialized which requires at least some base knowledge and currently in high demand and low supply, such as "angularjs development"?
Is there enough trusted positive feedback from former attendees?
Can you afford it? (20K is comparable to what I make in a year, so not a choice for me, unless I want to live out of tuna sandwiches the rest of the year. And I don't think any summer school is worth that. But if that's pocket money for you, why not?)
Have you considered an internship? Like, learning by hard work among more experienced partners and maybe even get paid for it if you prove yourself useful? Then, after you've finished, you can prove you can code by simply showing the things you've coded. Just like the school, but in a professional environment.
In many companies you just need to be willing to work hard and show a sincere great enthusiasm for the position in order to get an internship. A guy (a foreign student) just finished a 200-hour internship (about four weeks) in the company where I've just started working. He definitely has something to add to his CV, and he got paid for it. When he goes to a job interview he can say something like: "I learned how to do it with the help of my mentor and then I did this simple but useful app, all by myself. Plus I got paid for doing it, so I know my current skills are worth something".
I am not saying a coding school is a bad choice, only that there may be a few other options more suitable for you...
Disclaimer: I'm going to be as honest as possible.
I went to MakerSquare in Austin, TX and while it was one of the best decisions for me I can see how it is not for everyone. I got the incredible chance to work at MKS as a fellow after my program was done, so I got a behind the scenes look at how it all comes together. Although they (and most schools) do a lot of vetting to find the truly driven individuals who are perfect for this format of learning, it is certainly an imperfect science and inevitably some people attend who would have been better off going it alone.
My advice is to start small, go to the free lessons on codeacademy, codeschool or treehouse and learn enough to build a simple front-end app (such as a number guessing game or a comment system). After that you should have a better idea as to if you want to plunk down the chunk of change to take it to the next step and attend one of these programs.
Although a lot of programs market themselves as career changing opportunities I would advise you to not pay this much money on your education just for a better job (some see it as a purely financial investment with their future salaries being the return.) The reason I say this is because even though you might make more money, and even if you are good at programming that doesn't necessarily mean you will love doing it day in and day out. And that has more impact on you being a consistently great developer than most would think.
All in all This is an investment in your future self, and as such you have to ask yourself if you really want to be in front of a computer half slinging half slogging code every single day for it to pay off.
$10k + is a lot of money. But really there is no better investment you can make.
I attended MakerSquare in Austin when their program was 9 weeks long, not 12. A week after graduation I had 3 job offers that promised substantial returns.
Part of MakerSquare's prep is going through some prework on codeschool and codeacademy. I hated CodeSchool. The sound effects were annoying and I felt the video went too quickly for an intro. I found I rather read something, tinker with it until I understand and then move on. So why not read a whole bunch of blogs and learn stuff. Well you can but you're missing the entire point of a school. Interactions with others.
The biggest part you're missing out on is the problems and solutions other people have come across or invented. Given a problem you and I will come up with two different solutions and if we share our solutions we would come up with a even better solution. You see things differently than I do and we both will learn from the experience. Hence why a ton of people love pair programming ( which is something you will miss out on on your own ).
It is very likely that you will work with others. In fact coding is very social. Working with others in code is a valuable skill to have because it teaches you how to separate your personal feelings from your code.
Yeah you can save a bunch of money by not going to school. Yeah you can probably learn and get a job as a developer if you read a bunch of free stuff. But then ask yourself why does a society spend billions upon billions of dollars every year on free public education when really we should be spending all that money on books and tutorials.
I finished a 2-month full-stack JS class here in Seattle in June and really enjoyed it. I am/was primarily a LAMP stack/WordPress developer and wanted to expand my mind and skill set a bit. I was one of 2 or 3 people in the class who had more than a couple of months of programming experience (~ 6 years in my case), the rest were very new to the discipline.
I really enjoyed the process but it's very much a "get out what you put in" process. It was 6 hours per day, 5 days a week with homework. I could easily have doubled that time outside of class with additional reading, assignments, and projects. Still, I attended every lecture and finished all the assignments and now feel much more comfortable with the landscape in general.
The advantages a class has over self-directed learning are myriad:
- Paying for a class provides internal motivation to stay focused
- Someone helps you decide what to learn and in what order
- Most provide job-application assistance (my program in particular did an excellent job with this)
- You have someone being paid to answer all of your questions
- You have specific assignments to complete and are held accountable
- Teaching those around you is the highest form of learning
- You get a dedicated space to work and learn
From the other comments here, I fully agree that:
- 'The quality of the "graduates" varied immensely'
- 'All of the projects were group projects, so weaker students were able to hide behind stronger students' - you get out what you put in
- 'COLLECT AS MANY SIGNALS ABOUT INSTRUCTION QUALITY AS POSSIBLE'
- 'I also learned how to work on a dev team, not just in my app-building silo'
If you're passionate and willing to put in the effort and the hours, you'll learn more in a (good) 3 month intensive than in 12 months of trying to teach yourself online. That's my experience anyway.
[+] [-] superplussed|11 years ago|reply
* The quality of the "graduates" varied immensely. Some graduates had been programmers before starting the course, and those students were just there to sharpen their skills. Others had no background in programming.
* All of the projects were group projects, so weaker students were able to hide behind stronger students and couldn't actually point at any code that they had been solely responsible for.
* All of the projects had been conceived of by the school, and so were very very limited in ambition and scope. (It took some digging to find this out, the groups were presenting their projects as if they had conceived of them)
* One of the student told me nearly verbatim: "We learned more in 10 weeks than we would have in our first 2 years of a traditional C.S. degree." I told this student that that was preposterous and to please never repeat that sentence again.
* The students had obviously been well prepped on their interviewing techniques and showed alot of enthusiasm and (over)confidence. But the average proficiency level was way below junior programmer status, and for 2/3 of the students I didn't see how they could work without active mentoring.
* I kept in touch with one of the students after graduation, and he said that virtually all of the students received offers . So hey, the demand for programmers is really that high regardless of quality. I couldn't see hiring one of these devs for what seemed (at the time) to be a 70-80k starting salary range, when another 20k would get me a legitimate junior developer. Of course, as I said before there were some quality candidates coming out of the program, but those were only the students who were programmers before embarking on the course.
[+] [-] jrub|11 years ago|reply
Just like any other education program, you're going to get out what you put in. There is only so much that can be covered in a 3 month period of time. When starting from, essentially, nothing the instructors have to really push on the gas to get through a lot of material to get their students to a place where they can start being productive.
Unfortunately this means that a lot of fundamental programming concepts are glazed over, or skipped all together. That's not inherently bad, but the onus falls on the student to really research more, and apply lessons taught in different ways. A lot of people don't have the motivation to do this - and that really shows through when interview time comes around. It's very easy to spot the graduates who followed the program and haven't put in the extra time to understand all the information they've been given.
I think the key is to really evaluate what your expectations are. No one here can tell you which course to take, or which is best for you. It really depends on the style of learner that you are, how much work you're going to put in, and what you expect to come out the other side of the process with.
[+] [-] tongxiang|11 years ago|reply
I went through Fullstack Academy in NYC and received five job offers. (Full disclosure--worked as a teaching fellow at Fullstack shortly afterward, so I was on the payroll.) Had one of the best learning experiences of my life there. Absolutely worth the cost of tuition--there are real tangible pedagogical differences between distance/online learning like One Month Rails or Lynda and a physical classroom. You'll be a stronger coder, by an order of magnitude, from an in-person bootcamp.
The signal-to-noise ratio in the bootcamp space is currently EXTREMELY low. Currently, there are really only two data points prospective students can act on 1) the name-brand value of the first-to-market bootcamps, like App Academy and Hacker School, and 2) testimonials and hiring experiences of former students.
Neither of these data points are reliable. Plenty of students fall through the cracks at the oldest, most well-established bootcamps, and anecdotes (like this one, incidentally) can't represent the average experience.
Even though I had a wonderful, incredibly-high-leverage experience at Fullstack, I've known students who have gone through other bootcamps and have had HORRIBLE experiences--lackadaisical instructors working on side projects, courses exclusively by recent grads of the bootcamp with no industry experience, etc.
If you're considering bootcamps, COLLECT AS MANY SIGNALS ABOUT INSTRUCTION QUALITY AS POSSIBLE. This means speaking to former students, speaking to instructors and co-founders (if they're a bootcamp of any quality, they'll allow prospective students to chat with co-founders), sitting in on classes, visiting the school.
The bootcamp space is lucrative, and becoming increasingly crowded. Before someone comes along with a method of ranking them, DO YOUR RESEARCH.
[+] [-] giggles_giggles|11 years ago|reply
If you're considering any of these "bootcamps" send Hacker School an application. It's not a traditional school, or even a traditional bootcamp, but you'll learn buckets and at the end there's a job fair with many respected companies represented, and a support network to help you find a job that will be a good fit and will pay you fairly.
I was also able to squeeze by on a budget of about $5k for living expenses in NY when I did it, so this would be more expensive (but much better) than online courses, but much cheaper than pay-to-play bootcamps.
[+] [-] thelonelygod|11 years ago|reply
"I don't know how to program. Can I do Hacker School? No, sorry. Hacker School is currently only for people who already know how to code. Think of it like a writers workshop. We're here to help people become great novelists, but you have to already know English and be comfortable writing essays." - https://www.hackerschool.com/faq
Sounds like the op doesn't have any experience and wants to learn to code for the first time.
[+] [-] danso|11 years ago|reply
I think regardless of the quality of the instruction, the fact is that when you pay $10K+ for anything, you aren't going to schlub it off...in fact, these schools are pretty much run with the expectation that you're treating it as a full-time job during session, learning/working 6-8 hours a day at minimum. As great as the opportunities there are for learn-it-yourself, nothing beats the financial/social pressure of a structured class...and at the very least, employers have some validation that you can handle a structured pace (and part of this validation comes from the reputation of the school).
In fact, I'd argue much of the value of a traditional college degree is simply a signal that says, "Hey, I'm a relatively safe hire because I'm an adult who has figured out how to raise/access $50K-$150K, legally, have passed a battery of competency and social tests, and have managed to get along with hundreds/thousands of other students/faculty for four years without committing an egregious felony"
[+] [-] ens|11 years ago|reply
I wouldn't have been able to teach myself nearly as much using online resources. I learn much better being accountable to a group for my work, and there were so many times I got stuck and needed to just ask another person for help. I also learned how to work on a dev team, not just in my app-building silo. So, GA was worth it for me.
That being said, it depends on your background and your goals. Learning front end to change careers is different than learning it to be able to better communicate with front end devs at your work.
I personally wouldn't get $10k worth of knowledge from online resources, but your motivation may vary.
[+] [-] hobolaw|11 years ago|reply
That being said, in my current position I've interviewed a number of applicants who graduated from rails specific bootcamps and I've been less than impressed. A lot of them seem to be able to build rails applications but have limited or no ability to write ruby code. We had one applicant with an impressive looking portfolio who couldn't tell us how to reverse an array, despite coaching from us.
I get the sense that a lot of the technology specific boot camps do a lot of hand holding and have the students follow a pretty rigidly designed curriculum. The result being that you have a bunch of graduates who technically built some applications, but have little understanding of how they did it.
So what I would ultimately say, is that the value of attending a 3 month program depends almost entirely on which program it is you're thinking of attending. My rule of thumb would be to stay away from technology specific programs and try to find one that focuses more on concepts and principles.
Of course, this is all based on my personal experience, other people here might disagree, and naturally YMMV.
[+] [-] nthj|11 years ago|reply
You need to know your own learning style to make the decision on the investment. I'm pretty obsessive and learn things better on my own working towards a goal than I do in a classroom environment. (I was homeschooled, so whether I thrived in a homeschool environment because my brain works this way, or my brain works this way because I was homeschooled, or some of both, I'm not sure.) This plays out into my real life, too—my wife has found if she sends me follow-up emails on some things, I'm better able to act on it, as I have a lot of trouble retaining auditory information. (She is very gracious.)
But many people thrive in a classroom environment, and for them, a coding school and the energy of being in a room with 30 people driven towards a common goal makes starting the journey a lot easier. So, analyze your own learning style from the past, and weigh this into your decision.
Another angle to consider is that being in a program with MakerSquare is like getting into YC: it buys you access to a lot of wicked intelligent people who you might not get to rub shoulders with otherwise. I know some really, really smart developers in Austin. Many of them mentor MakerSquare students, and the students are privileged to have access to their time and expertise. If I could go back to when I first started learning and pay $20K to have these guys mentor me, I would do it in a heartbeat. But if you go this route, make a conscious effort to seek out their help and learn from them.
Finally, if cost is a major concern, I would look at Austin's MakerSquare program. Cost of living is lower than say SF, tuition is lower (I think, haven't cost compared in a while), and our community is very welcoming to motivated beginner developers.
Good luck! I'm [email protected] if you want to ask me more questions offline. :)
[+] [-] ulbanata|11 years ago|reply
Pick a school that has a good reputation. The reputation of the school will help you a lot during your job search.
Get ready to work hard! My class worked 6-7 days a week for 9+ hours/day. Cram as much information into your head as you can during the 12 weeks.
Pick a school that has a career services section! This was invaluable for everyone that graduated from MakerSquare. The career services team sets up connections with companies that are hiring and lets them know what to expect from the school's graduates.
So why go to a bootcamp? Yes, you can learn how to code on your own, but you will learn a lot more in the 3 month program than you can on your own in 3 months. The other benefits? Bounce questions off of teachers for a full 3 months (and more). Work with the other students that are there for the same reasons you are. Network with your classmates, other school alumni and professionals in the industry that know about your school. Have a team at your school working to get you hired whenever you need a job. The benefits greatly outweigh the costs if you work hard.
[+] [-] malloreon|11 years ago|reply
I took it as a summer sabbatical of sorts from my marketing job. When I got back I interviewed for an iOS position at the same company, got it, and spend just under two years learning from an amazing mobile team.
Almost two months ago I left and joined a startup, ironically founded by someone who briefly did App Academy while I was there.
Not only was it incredibly rigorous and tons of fun, it was by far the best career decision I've ever made.
[+] [-] rexington|11 years ago|reply
To answer your questions:
I enjoyed the experience. This is by far the easiest question. I had zero prior experience in software engineering or computer science, but I've always been a puzzle-solving sort of person. To go from a life of dishwashing / retail to all-day high-speed learning was absolutely a positive experience.
Is it worth saving money, and just learning on your own? Maybe. In order to get the same result as I would have at a/A, I would have spent a lot more time hunting down answers to questions online, googling naive things like "what does this error mean? why is it still here, I solved the problem!" I also would have needed the self-discipline and insight to understand what exercises would best teach me core concepts, and pad my github with visible work. Finally, I doubt I could have stuck to the timeline. Ruby in two weeks was hard, I don't think I could have done it 100% on my own. For me, it was worth it.
*Did it work? I got two offers in the 85k-90k range. If I'd wanted to look longer, I could have gone higher.
[+] [-] nickhould|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mynewwork|11 years ago|reply
That said, the person I spoke to had created a project similar in scope and quality to what I'd expect a CS undergrad to do as a class project, and clearly had the ability to get things done. I'd guess someone from such a program could be a good developer, but with big gaps in understanding beneath the surface ability to do Rails or Node.JS or whatever the bootcamp used. If you're only doing html/css/javascript then the coding school is probably a sufficient education to get a web dev/design job.
[+] [-] ProAm|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rholdy|11 years ago|reply
Worked out well for me, and I learned much more attending in person than I would have just doing the online stuff (many of which I had pounded through before going to the bootcamp)
[+] [-] wando|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] superqd|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eastbayjake|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lightblade|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gaelow|11 years ago|reply
Is there enough trusted positive feedback from former attendees?
Can you afford it? (20K is comparable to what I make in a year, so not a choice for me, unless I want to live out of tuna sandwiches the rest of the year. And I don't think any summer school is worth that. But if that's pocket money for you, why not?)
Have you considered an internship? Like, learning by hard work among more experienced partners and maybe even get paid for it if you prove yourself useful? Then, after you've finished, you can prove you can code by simply showing the things you've coded. Just like the school, but in a professional environment.
In many companies you just need to be willing to work hard and show a sincere great enthusiasm for the position in order to get an internship. A guy (a foreign student) just finished a 200-hour internship (about four weeks) in the company where I've just started working. He definitely has something to add to his CV, and he got paid for it. When he goes to a job interview he can say something like: "I learned how to do it with the help of my mentor and then I did this simple but useful app, all by myself. Plus I got paid for doing it, so I know my current skills are worth something".
I am not saying a coding school is a bad choice, only that there may be a few other options more suitable for you...
[+] [-] RamblinGambler|11 years ago|reply
I went to MakerSquare in Austin, TX and while it was one of the best decisions for me I can see how it is not for everyone. I got the incredible chance to work at MKS as a fellow after my program was done, so I got a behind the scenes look at how it all comes together. Although they (and most schools) do a lot of vetting to find the truly driven individuals who are perfect for this format of learning, it is certainly an imperfect science and inevitably some people attend who would have been better off going it alone.
My advice is to start small, go to the free lessons on codeacademy, codeschool or treehouse and learn enough to build a simple front-end app (such as a number guessing game or a comment system). After that you should have a better idea as to if you want to plunk down the chunk of change to take it to the next step and attend one of these programs.
Although a lot of programs market themselves as career changing opportunities I would advise you to not pay this much money on your education just for a better job (some see it as a purely financial investment with their future salaries being the return.) The reason I say this is because even though you might make more money, and even if you are good at programming that doesn't necessarily mean you will love doing it day in and day out. And that has more impact on you being a consistently great developer than most would think.
All in all This is an investment in your future self, and as such you have to ask yourself if you really want to be in front of a computer half slinging half slogging code every single day for it to pay off.
[+] [-] devkaoru|11 years ago|reply
I attended MakerSquare in Austin when their program was 9 weeks long, not 12. A week after graduation I had 3 job offers that promised substantial returns.
Part of MakerSquare's prep is going through some prework on codeschool and codeacademy. I hated CodeSchool. The sound effects were annoying and I felt the video went too quickly for an intro. I found I rather read something, tinker with it until I understand and then move on. So why not read a whole bunch of blogs and learn stuff. Well you can but you're missing the entire point of a school. Interactions with others.
The biggest part you're missing out on is the problems and solutions other people have come across or invented. Given a problem you and I will come up with two different solutions and if we share our solutions we would come up with a even better solution. You see things differently than I do and we both will learn from the experience. Hence why a ton of people love pair programming ( which is something you will miss out on on your own ).
It is very likely that you will work with others. In fact coding is very social. Working with others in code is a valuable skill to have because it teaches you how to separate your personal feelings from your code.
Yeah you can save a bunch of money by not going to school. Yeah you can probably learn and get a job as a developer if you read a bunch of free stuff. But then ask yourself why does a society spend billions upon billions of dollars every year on free public education when really we should be spending all that money on books and tutorials.
[+] [-] joshcanhelp|11 years ago|reply
I really enjoyed the process but it's very much a "get out what you put in" process. It was 6 hours per day, 5 days a week with homework. I could easily have doubled that time outside of class with additional reading, assignments, and projects. Still, I attended every lecture and finished all the assignments and now feel much more comfortable with the landscape in general.
The advantages a class has over self-directed learning are myriad:
- Paying for a class provides internal motivation to stay focused - Someone helps you decide what to learn and in what order - Most provide job-application assistance (my program in particular did an excellent job with this) - You have someone being paid to answer all of your questions - You have specific assignments to complete and are held accountable - Teaching those around you is the highest form of learning - You get a dedicated space to work and learn
From the other comments here, I fully agree that:
- 'The quality of the "graduates" varied immensely' - 'All of the projects were group projects, so weaker students were able to hide behind stronger students' - you get out what you put in - 'COLLECT AS MANY SIGNALS ABOUT INSTRUCTION QUALITY AS POSSIBLE' - 'I also learned how to work on a dev team, not just in my app-building silo'
[+] [-] eugmill|11 years ago|reply