Ask HN: Why people continue working in video game industry?

[shubhamjain]

Its a common knowledge that being a video game developer for AAA titles means put up your soul to see it get done. Browsing for big companies on Glassdoor gives you a clear picture of what everyone goes through - Twelve hours workdays, six days a week with no paid overtime, terrible management, and intense work pressure [1].

If I am not wrong developing 3D games is insanely hard thing to do, for variety of reasons. So why would anyone want to continue working in this industry when he can (hopefully) get better job opportunities by quitting?

[1]: http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Rockstar-Games-Reviews-E20887.htm

[jarcane]

1) Many of them don't. The turnover of grunt level coders and QA staff is huge, and the senior figures in the industry mostly made it through the days before crunch-time was simply "all-the-time", and now have the seniority to avoid it themselves.

2) An endless supply of True Believers. The games industry feeds on exploiting the idealism of youth. Young guys who grow up with 'making games' as their dream job, but no idea how the sausage is made, are hired up for QA jobs and junior programming jobs with promises to do just that. And when they burn out or realize they're just going to be doing bug testing for the rest of their lives because they don't actually have the experience to be anything else, the industry shrugs and hires one of the thousands of others lining up at the door with the same dreams.

The whole reason the indie market in games has exploded is precisely because of this, I think. The ones who burn out but still have the talent, or who're smart enough to avoid the AAA system to begin with, just say fuck it and make their own games like almost everyone once did in the 80s. Market standards have shifted from necessarily expecting only the AAA experience, and while few indie games are going to rival the sales of the next hoorah-FPS game, if you're lucky, talented, and willing to spend a fuckload of time self-promoting, you can eke out a living without the meatgrinder.

[mjn]

I agree with (1), but it's much beyond just low-level staff; even senior people have considerable turnover. Since I'm an academic AI researcher, I've tried to cultivate contacts with AI leads at AAA companies, because they often have interesting problems and perspectives, especially on how AI and design interact. A problem with this is that they keep leaving! For various reasons, of the senior AI people I know pretty well (AI leads on games like Sims 3, Black & White, Halo, F.E.A.R., etc.), all but one no longer work at "AAA" game companies.

Some stayed in the industry but moved into a consulting role where they could control their own hours and assignments better; some branched off and started small indie-game studios; some moved to a non-game tech job; and some went to grad school. People have different motivations, but there seems to be a feeling that the job of AAA AI lead is getting more and more boring and management-constrained, while the working conditions are getting worse. And on the other hand, that the alternatives are better than they used to be (much bigger indie-game scene, more relevant academic programs, etc.), so maybe it's time to get out and do something else.

[jay_kyburz]

I'm a long time lurker, but finally a topic I know a little about.

I can't speak for every company out there, but I worked at 2K / Irrational Games through the Bioshock days. Things may have changed in the last few years. I left several years ago to work twelve hour days, 7 days a week, for no pay at all in my own company.

You have to ask yourself what you want in life. Do you want to spend years working on B grade games nobody has heard about, or do you want to work on a AAA game with a huge budget that everybody is talking about.

Do you want to be the best, or do you want to be some average joe.

If you want to be the best you have to work hard, and you have to fight, and you have to put aside some other things in life. And if you're doing it, you will expect it of the others around you.

If you don't mind being a member of an average team making average games, well you can have a better work life balance.

It sounds a little harsh, but I honestly think it's as simple as that.

[fluffheadsr]

i think you're extremely WRONG. I am also a developer, and I can tell you for FACT i can write better code and be far more interested in my work, and get more done by working less hours every week. Burnout in anything is real even if you LOVE it with all your heart. The mind needs a rest.

I work for a completely profitable studio now that bootstrapped ourselves working <40hrs a week. We work remotely, we have unlimited flex time, 3+ weeks of vacation a year, every holiday.. AND WE MAKE EVERYONE TAKE ALL OF IT. The more time spent away from the grind, the better we all feel when we get back on it. I get excited to get back to work instead of dreading it. The american mentality of work until you fall down is WRONG. When i was in that situation the last few hours of the day was spent trying to just get to the end of the day. Not doing my best development.

[javert]

Working on a AAA game does not make you "the best." And working on a B grade game does not make you "some average joe."

The "best" person is the person who most enjoys their life.

[raverbashing]

Replace "AAA game" with (made as a) blockbuster and "B" game with "independent one that might work out" and we agree

See: Minecraft

But yeah, today's "Holywood super-production" games demand a lot of work.

[yuvadam]

Sounds like a classic recipe for burnout.

[yzzxy]

I think most people don't enter the games industry because they see it as a subset of programming. They learned to program or create art to make games, not vice versa. Many programmers began coding because they wanted to make games, including myself. But I think most people don't find game code interesting after they make some initial demos, outside of a few areas like computer graphics, which is pretty centralized nowadays in engine vendors like Unity and Unreal.

But there are those who believe in games, who live them day and night, who idolize famous developers like rock stars. They would like nothing more than to work at $GAMEDEV.

As a result, they might not be comparison shopping with other company types like other programmers between financial, startup, BigCo, and others.

I myself considered entering games for a long time, but growing fear of entering such a predatory industry, as well as a growing interest in PLT and other CS topics, led me away from that path. I still would consider joining or starting a small indie team, and participating in game jams or game hackathons. But I personally don't see the appeal of AAA jobs - the artistry isn't there the way it is with indie games, and the pay isn't either.

One note - the movement to F2P games like Dota2 and LoL seems to be improving this trend. These games ship features when they're done, like a SaaS product, and can avoid the crazy crunches and turnover that a release cycle perpetuates. Riot and Valve also have some of the highest industry scores on Glassdoor.

[jarcane]

As a result, they might not be comparison shopping with other company types like other programmers between financial, startup, BigCo, and others.

Indeed. This is a good point. If you grow up and go into the game industry wanting to make the next Halo, you're not even going to look at anywhere else, and often don't have any idea that things even are better elsewhere.

[pjmlp]

I am on the same boat, was a IGDA member for a few years and even attended GDCE from my own pocket.

But as I discovered more and more what it would mean to work in the games industry, I eventually gave up.

Life after work is just too precious to invest it into games.

Although consulting can be hard sometimes, it still is way better than any game studio.

[NateG]

I've been programing games since I was 10 years old and games are the only reason I went into Computer Science. I started off at a smaller studio out of college and accepted a salary about 15% less than my friends who went into Aerospace and Finance. I didn't care, because games is where I wanted to be and I loved every moment. I found games interesting, intellectually challenging and ultimately very rewarding. I moved from UI to game play to AI, did some Audio programming, dabbled in graphics, helped with design, etc. There was always something new to learn and do. Fast forward and many of my non-game industry friends were bored with their jobs, not learning new skills and maintaining legacy code. Some friends left the game industry to find greener pastures and more money in other fields and eventually came back due to the lack of creativity and monotony many non-game jobs entail. This is obviously subjective and perhaps the kind of person that is not attracted to making games would find those other jobs rewarding and that is not to say that all game jobs are dynamic and wonderful.

Regarding long work hours and terrible pay, not all employers are created equal. I eventually worked for a couple of different AAA companies before going indie and I had a very good salary and benefits at both companies surrounding by extremely talented developers. I have a few friends who I would say have extraordinary salaries and perks, however, they are very good at what they do. I have worked the crazy crunch times sure, but I think that is becoming less common especially after the EA Spouse debacle and the industry matures. It does still exist at some companies, however, there are many other jobs and industries out there that are just as demanding. I eventually went the indie route mainly just to see if I had the chops to run a small company and be the captain of my own ship. It was a question I wanted to answer for my own personal growth.

Working at a game company just so you can have a "job" is probably not a good idea. Just like I wouldn't recommend starting or joining a startup unless your heart is really into it and you love what you are doing because, yeah, there are going to be some long hours sometimes and there is a good chance you could be making more money elsewhere. If you like games, want to make games and are passionate about it, there are good companies out there that will pay and treat you well. Seek them out.

[kyriakos]

The same way people go on doing CRUD business apps 8 hours a day. It's probably not a stressful but being someone who was doing that for 10 years it really kills you. There is zero room for creativity, zero room for solving programming puzzles, its donkey work.

[jmnicolas]

I think it's a common mistake for young people to aspire to be a game dev just to make games.

The journey (programming) is the most important not the destination (the game).

If you don't like coding you won't be happy making games (and there's a good chance you won't make games at all).

If you like coding you don't need a job in the game industry. Apart from the work environment, for a real programmer coding challenges in others industries are as fun as in the game industry.

[fluffheadsr]

this 1000x's.. like everyone else here i taught myself to program when I was a child in QBasic and Pascal so I could make games. I've never made a single game beyond tic-tac-toe when I was a kid. I still love programming though!

[pandaman]

For a game designer there are no better opportunities that I am aware (I am not a designer though).

For an artist - there is the VFX industry, which is much worse from what I've heard (at least game artists don't go on protests). A concept artist could probably do some illustration freelance, not quite as same as a FTE with benefits and salary.

For a programmer, and I am one, I don't see anything that could be as fun. Besides, programmers in the games are paid pretty well.

For a QA - beats me, QA are treated pretty badly, I guess they are there for the chance to break into the industry.

Producers - it seems there is oversupply of middle management, they could probably do the same job of sitting on meetings in a Fortune 500 company for a much better salary but nobody is offering them such a position.

[KaiserPro]

VFX here.

For programmers its quite sweet, unless you insist on working long hours.

unless there is a real crisis (as in data missing, lack of power or stuff on fire) I'm out the door at clocking off time. We are not curing cancer, no one will die if I leave at the contracted time. But then perhaps being, Helpful, talkative, friendly and having no qualms about telling people that seeing my family is infinity more important than dealing with their lack of planning may be why.

I really do feel pity for the people (normally artists) that feel like they have to stay late. for example, people at the Moving Picture company were having dailies at 10PM (a review of the work with crit and dishing out new shots) They start at 9/10AM.

There are laws against this sort of thing, unions and other mechanisms to stop employers taking the piss. However people just leave (the industry) without actually doing anything (Apparently here in the UK middle class people don't do unions.)

Seriously, everyone grumbles (http://vfxsoldier.wordpress.com/) but little to nobody actually does anything. All it takes is 20-30% of the work force saying "actually no, we're not going to work more than 40 hours, deal with it or fire us"

No employer can replace 20-30% of a workforce and keep a project schedule.

[LeicaLatte]

This is my first year working with a gaming company. Working on Watch Dogs, The Crew was quite intense at times but the people have so much passion they make it worthwhile. Game dev are often younger than say enterprise software dev. They have time that needs filling rather than old people who maintain a completely different relationship with time.

[LBarret]

The game industry is quite dysfunctional. It had been proved that crunch is counter-productive. But there is macho thing to it and it's reassuring to managers. And as jay_kyburtz's comment shows, there is also a lot of (misplaced IMHO) pride participating in a AAA project. It is the kind of discourse managers tell their team to make them work harder, but in a team of 200+, everybody is just a (replaceable) cog in the machine.

Nevertheless, Gamedevs love what they do because a game is full of interesting problems. As a friend told me : the best game is to build the game. On the other end of the spectrum, working for a crud project in an enterprisey environment can be soul crushing.

I've done a few years in the industry and it is a good place to work on hard problems and becoming a very good coder. But except if you go to the indie (or middleware) route, it is not sustainable : it has the same alluring seduction as Hollywood and it is even harsher (due to its ties to the finance industry).

[fredophile]

There are a bunch of good comments here already but as someone that's worked as a game developer for years here's my take on it. I do have a few comments on the question itself before I get to my reasons for staying in the game industry.

First, not all game companies are created equal. The example you cited is from a company with a reputation for working long hours in and industry that already has a reputation for working long hours.

Second, compare what you read there to typical start up culture. All of the listed downsides are present to some degree in start ups. Are people more forgiving of this for start ups because of the potential for financial reward?

As someone else mentioned, not everyone sticks around and turnover for junior employees is pretty high.

Most people get into working in games because they love playing games. Making games and playing games are very different activities. I'd call this a necessary but insufficient reason for staying in games. If this is the only reason someone is in the games industry they'll probably, but not necessarily, leave relatively quickly.

Now that I've gotten generalities out of the way here's some reasons why I stay in games.

For me money isn't an issue. I could probably make more doing something else but I make enough to cover my expenses and have a pretty comfortable lifestyle. I'd need a very significant pay raise to consider leaving the industry if that was the main reason to go.

Making games is hard. I like working on challenging things. There's also a very wide variety in the challenges. If you don't like working on one type of challenges there are other challenging problems to work on.

Another big thing for me is the people I get to work with. Because of the wide variety of roles you see people with very different backgrounds making games. Personally, I prefer this and the impacts it has on company culture over the more tech heavy companies. I'm also very fortunate to work with incredibly talented people every day at my current job.

[chipsy]

For people who have gotten far enough into it(and I would count myself among them) there is a "point of no return" where you're like any other devoted artist - you see designs that have not been made and that you have to make. No amount of money can buy them because they aren't realized in any form yet, and only you can do the work. This is at the core of the artistry emerging from the independent scene these days, although you have to go trawl sites like itch.io and Warp Door and play a sampling of free games to actually see what's out there - the commercial sector isn't going to reward all of that stuff, and this group is drifting inexorably towards Patreon as a funding source.

But there is a dual vision here. The point of no return is not the thing attracting people to the AAA sector, and it isn't even held by the majority of independents, who feel a lot of pressure to think about the bottom line constantly, pander to a perceived audience, and just put out something, anything, that will keep their doors open. You only get past that thought pattern if you've hung on long enough and attained a certain mindset(which I attribute to chance factors, not all of which are necessarily good or healthy). As you outline, a cold industrial-capitalist labor valuation indicates that you get worse payment and conditions in games than equivalent work elsewhere.

No, what gets everyone in there, including younger, more naive me, is some combination of exceptionalism, short-term thinking, or status seeking. Framing life in terms of "it'll be so cool to put these things on the screen" or "I'll be recognized for this work later!" People who feel this way have trouble keeping away from it - they are "working to live," even as the system makes them "live to work." Like any workaholic, they may be escaping from personal issues, and there is a combination of intrinsic empowerment in helping to create a tangible virtual world, and a social power in working on big, impressive geek shibboleths(amaze your friends who said you'd never amount to anything: "I worked on this popular successful game"). The people who break tend to reach a point where they need a more stable situation, they feel disillusioned about the type of works they're making, or they're just burned out from the repetitive aspects.

[q3sniper]

Because of the thrill of it.

My day-to-day is devops with a little frontend. It's drugery. I got into programming because I wanted to do games programming. That's where I started. It was thrilling, doing demos, entering competitions, pushing pixels. Fucking thrilling. But then I needed to get a job. Nobody needs a games/graphics programmer. So, I read a couple of database books, and now life sucks.

I'd love to go back to where the rubber hit the road.

[inDigiNeous]

So, what is preventing you from doing just that? Life is short. Computer projects are big. Do the math.

I know this may sound harsh and stupid, but just reminding you to follow the path of love, and not stick to any dayjob.

Left my dayjob in 2012 december. Been following my heart since then, a difficult path, but so rewarding, I couldn't even dream about what has happened since then before when I was still in the mindset that I have to have a steady job.

It's not like that. Once you decide to go forwards, the Universe and the World around you starts to adapt to that projection. Encouraging everyone here to follow your hearts and not accept what is considered normal as your destiny.

[javert]

Sounds like you know what you want in life, I truly envy you.

[MrScruff]

You'll find this applies to any creative industry. The conditions will be terrible compared to less creative jobs because the work is fun and everyone wants to do it, creating intense competition.

However, people will find it tough to quit and get a regular job because... the work is fun. It turns out enjoying what you do counts for a lot.

[agersant]

I can only speak for myself but my reasons are:

1. I love making games more than making big money.

2. I get to work with smart people who care about their work.

3. I feel like I'm solving interesting technical challenges.

4. Most studios I have worked at are managed reasonably well. Your "common knowledge" is a broad generalization based on the most horrific examples around.

[napolux]

Simple answer: 90% of us (including me) started programming because they want to make videogames. Nobody wants to start programming because "I want to make Drupal/WordPress/Whatever websites".

;-)

[mahouse]

Unless it is sarcasm, you are wrong. Just look at PHP and you'll see how wrong you are.

[philippnagel]

Uhm, the later is exactly how I started programming :D

[trentroot2275]

what tricks can I use to not get denied on C.C.