Ask HN: Anxiety is limiting my enjoyment of a wonderful career. Can you relate?

[awaythrow15]

Hey HN,

Here's the thing: I'm incredibly lucky. I'm working in a field I absolutely love (the intersection of technology and medicine), with a brilliant and compassionate group of people who I respect greatly, in an environment flowing in autonomy, doing work I find unbelievably interesting and impactful. There is nothing I would rather be doing, and (for the most part) no group of people I'd rather be doing it with. As someone who sought such a situation for a long time, that's not a statement I take lightly.

So what's the problem? Anxiety. So much anxiety. An onslaught of worry and fear, (quite literally) every minute of every day, all self-imposed and mostly centered on a fear of embarrassment. Do I know enough? Am I doing enough? What if I don't know the answer to that extremely basic question? How do I make sure that no one "finds me out"? Many imposter syndrome concerns: some of which are grounded in reality but none of which are helpful to me.

These thoughts fill up my mind in such a way that I don't have many brain cycles left for learning new ideas, solving problems or remembering details. (I have OCD, and these thoughts become obsessions that don't let up.) This creates a negative feedback loop: anxiety leads to decreased performance (in terms of learning/solving/remembering/accomplishing), which leads to anxiety about my performance, which further decreases my performance. As a result, I find myself becoming the imposter I'm trying to conceal, and am often unhappy.

Why am I writing this post? I'm seeking understanding, support, and related stories/situations. I'm not seeking a cure-all. I'm not seeking a pharmaceutical or therapeutic recommendation. Just support.

I'd love to hear from you all!

[graeme]

Used to be anxious, now I'm not. This stuff may or may not apply to you. Take it as one anecdotal experience.

First, are these in line?:

  * Sleep
  * Diet
  * Exercise
  * Meditation/relaxation time

Whenever I feel anxious now, I notice I've let one or more of those slide. Anxiety resolves when I fix them.

Second, I used to be anxious for the following reasons:

  * I was socially awkward with few friends.
  * I was bad at reading body language. 
  * I didn't have objective things I could point to that I had done that were unambiguously good.
  * My reasons for feeling good were all in one area.

Number 2 was a major cause of number 1. When I couldn't read people, I was always worried I'd do something wrong. This made me shy and awkward around people. This in turn made people less likely to want to hang around with me.

So I learned how to read body language. You don't have to live in fear of harsh reactions if you can read body language. You'll notice people broadcasting loudly "everything is fine, I think you're doing a good job" loud and clear. The odd occasions someone is displeased, you'll spot it a mile away. I can't emphasize this enough.

I used this to also fix any specific weaknesses that made me feel bad. So now I feel very comfortable with my life. I produced a bunch of stuff that everyone unambiguously agrees is good.

Finally, I made sure to put my efforts into a few areas. If work is going poorly this week, at least I lifted more at the gym, and vice-versa. Having your ego fulfilled from different areas prevents you from feeling bad if one goes south.

Hope that's useful.

Note: Advice of this calibre is all assuming that there's no issue that actually requires therapy/medication. I don't know much about those options. My experience was just garden variety anxiety that can affect any human being.

[dhardy]

I know this is a bit off topic and a touch on the personal side(feel free to not answer) but I am curious how you taught yourself to read body language? Did you use books or trial and error, or??

[voidlogic]

>>Diet

I would have never believed this, but after I started on a ketogenic diet I realized my stress/anxiety was greatly reduced. (Beware: antidote, n=1, etc).

>>Exercise

I find the days I feel "too busy" (aka really just stressed) for a walk are the days I need it most. I seldom find a 45 min walk to be a waste of time in retrospect.

[websitescenes]

"* I was bad at reading body language."

This was such a huge issue for me. Being so observant, it's easy to judge someone based on body language and tone. Yes we can gain valuable information from this observation but we should not assume those observations are correct. I find it very easy to assume my assumptions are correct and this often creates situations where there are none.

Thanks for sharing.

[robg]

We have data now to support the sleep-stress relationship. Hope to publish that soon. Now sleep is the most important thing I do every day. Then exercise. Then work.

[ndnichols]

I know you said you're not seeking a therapeutic recommendation, but if you were my friend then I would buy you a beer and gently recommend seeing a therapist. I saw one for a year after I got divorced, and she was extremely helpful in teaching me how to get out of negative-feedback thought loops, which sounds like it might be useful for you, too. I was originally nervous about signing up for a lifetime of having someone be my emotional crutch. But my take on it now is: 1) Being a happy, fulfilled human is hard. 2) We are generally not good at it, and we don't have much time to get good at it. 3) If one person has a problem, ten million other people do too. 4) Many problems have genuine solutions, and those that don't almost always have approaches that are helpful.

It sounds like your anxiety is having a real negative impact on your life. If you had some physical ailment (say digestive issues or headaches) that were having such a negative impact, you would go to a doctor, yeah? It's the same deal.

Take care and good luck!

[awaythrow15]

I do appreciate the suggestion, and I wholeheartedly agree that therapy can be a powerful tool. As can medication! I've had mixed success with both. I wanted to take that off the table for this particular discussion, as a thread filled with "seek professional help" didn't seem like it'd be a useful one for the community (or for me).

[alexbecker]

Definitely seconding this advice. A good therapist can make a world of difference.

[origin-unknown]

I used to have severe problems with anxiety -- unable to breathe or swallow, shooting pains in my neck, face completely numb, legs twitching and kicking around uncontrollably. It was absolute torture, but luckily the attacks wouldn't last too long, 10 minutes at most.

Started when I was 16. Tried therapists. Tried SRIs, but side effects negatively affected "normal" time so I stopped taking them. Tried to figure out environmental triggers, possible food allergies, etc., but to no avail.

Had my last attack about 10 years ago, when I was 26. They started tapering off in severity from 22 onwards, and I largely attribute that to how I was dealing with the attacks.

The first thing I would do is tell myself that I was having a fight or flight response and that the unpleasant effects were the result of adrenaline pumping through my veins.

I would assure myself that I was getting enough air, so I wouldn't fall into a cycle of hyperventilation. This was always the hardest part. I had to wrestle with my breathing continuously.

Over time, I became very sensitive to changes in my breathing patterns and would start working on breath control as soon as it became irregular. This one simple trick eventually stopped my anxiety issues altogether, and now psychologists hate me!

I can look back on this now as a very long period of forced mindfulness meditation. It's probably no coincidence that I had a lot of mystical experiences during this phase.

The key thing is I wasn't doing battle with a monster. I was killing its babies. In fact, if I was a therapist, I would advise all of my patients to kill the babies. You should kill the babies too!

Kill. The. Babies.

[davidkim]

I've struggled with anxiety for as long as I can remember. I used to approached it with a fight or flight relationship. As I shifted my ways of identifying with it, I was able to turn that fight/hostility into a gentle dance. From there I was able to start taking the small steps that would help me have better control of it. Start now, or do I let it manifest further for my future self?

Here are some things that have helped me:

  - Meditation / mindfulness
  - Good sleep hygiene
  - Understanding and reading about the condition

There are many more, I'm sure you're aware of them.

I'd be happy to talk with you about it more. You ARE talented, don't let the mind get to you (it will try). All the best!

[p-c-p]

Meditation/mindfulness and good sleep hygiene worked wonders for me too. As a grad student, I also suffered with anxiety due to imposter syndrome. Here is my shift in perception that helped me.

Stop taking yourself too seriously. Listen to the stories you tell yourself about you. When your mind tells you that you don't know anything, or how come you didn't achieve anything "significant" if you are so talented. Will you ever say this to your friend? Or to a child? Your relationship with yourself should never be worse than what you have with an acquaintance because you don't really know yourself. I was constantly surprised by myself when I started inspecting myself.

Start taking yourself just as a streched-out child. Life is too short anyways. Find the innocence that is there in you. No matter how many times you fail or succeed, you still love you.

[thedudemabry]

I'm in total agreement here. The fight or flight response to anxiety feels really hard to overcome, but it is possible using these and other approaches.

Something else that I feel like I should mention is that if you're feeling overwhelmed, scheduling an appointment with a googled therapist near you to talk about anxiety is an awesome concrete action to take. In the heat of the moment, it can feel like admitting defeat (it's not). It's kind of a way of TDD'ing your view of yourself.

[awaythrow15]

Thanks for your thoughts! It's great to hear from others who are experiencing these feelings, and I've also found meditation and sleep to be fundamental. The fight/flight response is a cool way of characterizing the difficulty of running away from and/or resisting these feelings.

[SrslyJosh]

All good advice, but don't be afraid to try a medicinal remedy as well. I know people for whom Zoloft (frequently prescribed for anxiety) has worked wonders.

[saminiir]

This.

Meditation, CBT, a regular sleep pattern.

[KodierKroete]

Hey let's face it. Why are you employed? You're employed to generate more value to a companies product. I assume you're working there for at least 3 months or so. I think the fact you're not fired at this very moment proves that you'll doing your job somewhat right.

Don't get me wrong i know your fears quite well, but the thing is sometimes you have to face realities. There is no easy way to deal with it but a thing i had to learn was that dedication an passion are far more valueable to a company than failure.

You seem to me like a guy who reflects a lot of his own actions. Think of Software Development. A bit of reflection can lead to some kick ass smart solutions but a lot of it causes performance issues. Same with your mind.

A thing which worked for me was to get intouch with my coworkers. Talk about work related issues, do code reviews and such things. That is a healthy way of validate whether or not you're performing well. You'd be surprised by the fact of how your coworkers realize your perfomance.

I can't give you any advice on how you could possibly accept that feedback, but maybe you could try if this and it will work out for you.

I'll hope this comment helps you in any way gaining more self confidence.

Rock on

[bstar77]

I get anxious when I feel unprepared. It sounds like you feel unprepared to handle the task(s) at hand- this can be a very stressful situation. I've been there and I've supported others going through this as well.

The way I overcame it was to become prepared- I would start my day a few hours early, that kept my mind sharp and gave me plenty of time to start tackling problems ahead of everyone else. I also used my free time wisely to continue educating myself.

After 6 months of this, my comfort level improved tremendously- I went from being a complete novice that was way over his head to a very respected developer on the team. Stress absolutely kills my productivity so it was critical for me to understand the triggers that created it. Once I was confident in my skills and realized that struggling is a natural part of the learning process, my mental state improved dramatically.

I also want to mention that I have ADD. I need to force myself to focus on a single task or else I get overwhelmed. I also need to have headphones on to block our my surroundings (check out windy, sunny and thunderspace iOS apps). This give me the ability to have intense focus without all of the noise.

[delavara]

I am diagnosed with Pure-O OCD and can relate to the constant fear. It's terrible and difficult to explain to someone. It sucks and sometimes I had to go home from work because the ruminating overwhelmed. I've had coworkers notice that I seem very distracted and take it personally until I tell them what's going on. The fears ranged from being an imposter to various other health concerns that weren't related to work in the least.

I'm currently seeing a psychiatrist and taking medication for my OCD and have explained my conditions to my higher ups so they would have a better understanding. I also started seeing a cognitive behavioral psychiatrist who had me doing exposure therapy to reduce my fear response to triggering stimuli. I've had significant improvements since i've started treatment, and now each day doesn't feel like the end of the world, but I still have moments of deep panic from time to time that are more manageable. I know you aren't seeking medical help which I completely respect, but I hope knowing that you aren't alone helps in some way.

[zurichisstained]

I also have a Pure-O diagnosis, and I totally know what you mean by having a hard time explaining it - it's such a painful conundrum. Glad that you're doing CBT - being able to catch those obsessions and let them dissipate by acknowledging them is super key to getting through it.

Glad you're seeing improvement!

[a3n]

1. Talk to your boss or other mentor-ish co-worker about your concerns. Make sure you specifically talk about these concerns; if it ends up being a performance meeting, they'll probably tell you you're doing great, like they probably already have.

Most people love to help when asked. Have one of those people connect you with people or resources that can fill in some knowledge, skill or experience gaps that you may identify. No one else needs to know about your concerns beyond that first person, if that's how you want it. Schedule the meeting right now.

2. Related to 1, when you're afraid of being found out for not knowing something, it's hard to ask for help. So make it a near term goal to eventually ask everyone you work with for help on something. Just something small is good enough, to get you used to doing this. You'll probably find that they don't think a thing about it, and will be glad to help. It also builds relationships. Successful people always ask for help.

3.It's hard to self-assess when you're broken. It sounds like you're temporarily broken. Temporarily. So have a discussion with your doctor, as a jumping off point. He may recommend any number of things, but he's clear-eyed at the moment and you're not. If you don't have a doctor, get one, or contact the most immediately available relevant health professional available. Do this today. Step away from the Hacker News and make an appointment with your doctor.

4. Have a nice weekend.

[websitescenes]

I have OCD tendencies and I have found it incredibly helpful to connect with others in similar situations. I feel almost exactly like you do on a regular basis. My automatic negative thoughts are a little different but the end result is the same.

If you are like me, you are an extremely considerate/observant person that puts the perceived needs of others consistently before your own.

I know it sounds stupid or crass but you just have to stop giving a fuck about what people think. You will absolutely never be able to control peoples thoughts, emotions or actions. You are where you are based on your own merits. No one gave you a handout. You stayed up late into nights, learning, coding and building.

Having OCD means that you are eccentric. We can't change that and we shouldn't have to. Sometimes we don't have filters and call things like we see them. That's ok. Often people react negatively and that's also ok. That doesn't mean they hate us forever. Non OCD people generally get over things relatively quickly. Don't worry about it.

This perspective in conjunction with counseling has helped me tremendously. I still get anxiety, sometimes really bad, but when I do, I usually know it's because I'm being dishonest with myself and feeding into negative automatic thoughts.

Much love to you, you're not alone.

[Suga]

I don't know what is the exact problem that I am having. What you said about being careful what others would think or do has always haunted in my head. That alienates me from other people and I know how hard it feels.when ever I have to face a new challenge I feel that I am not good enough and I even forget all the technical details of the projects I did, things I have learned. Now I am facing huge fear having to go to job interviews. I even forget words to describe what I have done in previous projects.

Once I was the brightest students in the School. But now I feel that I have no knowledge at all. I'm worried. I wish if something could rescue me.

[pcglue]

I have anxiety and I have quit 2 jobs when asked to assume tech lead role because the first 2 times I have taken on tech lead roles, I ended up in the hospital and started alienating my family due to depression, respectively.

I can handle the toughest sr. engineer assignment, but I can't handle the most basic tech lead stuff where responsibility for other people's work is involved. I have since learned to hold back my performance and excel just enough to keep my job, but not so much that I'll be considered for a "promotion" to tech lead or management.

I am just a programmer. I am content with that and aspire to be nothing more career-wise. I call myself a programmer despite the popular advice not to do so here. My life is better and I am happier that way.

[verulito]

I also have no aspirations to rise the corporate ladder. Pay goes up, maybe, but so do work hours and stress. Job stability goes down. Playfulness goes down. Free time goes down. Peon programming is where it's at. If I want more more, then I can freelance or start side projects and they'd likely both pay better and be a lot more fulfilling.

[bipolar_dev]

i can absolutely relate.

i have OCD, bipolar disorder, PTSD, and generalized anxiety disorder. i love writing software, but i struggle every. single. day. i totally understand the negative feedback loop. i worry that my performance will suffer, it DOES suffer because i worry so much about it, etc etc. and then there are days like today where i come in to work in the middle of a manic episode and have a million ideas that i can't extract from my brain because it's racing too fast. under less distressed circumstances, i could write something more eloquent for you, but getting just a few sentences out is a victory at the moment. suffice to say: you are not alone.

[this_is_not_me]

I am in the same position. I am CTO of a startup in London. On paper, everything is wonderful. These past few months the company has quadrupled in size. We're in swanky offices. My commute is short - from the apartment that I own with my girlfriend who I love.

Anxiety is a constant demon hanging over me. I fell it every day. Not only that but feelings of deep self-loathing. Sometimes it paralyses me. I can't work for days on end, I can't face my colleagues. I go to the office, but am unproductive to the point of being entirely non-productive.

I make it up on other days, when I'm 'up'. But recently the periods of 'down' have been longer, harder, and seem unescapable. My up self is finding it harder to compensate.

I have to force myself to do the things I enjoy in my spare time. These days all I want to do when I get home is lose myself in pointless internet browsing. Imgur is a favourite - I'll swipe for hours through that dross.

I don't know where to go really. I've been in an ongoing battle with my mind since a severe bout of depression a few years ago. That unlocked a lot of stuff, and these days it's never as bad, but I'm aware of the fight every day, and it's exhausting.

I wish there was a way out, but there isn't. I'm going to be fighting this my entire life.

[robg]

Are you getting enough sleep and exercise? Meditation? The brain is a muscle like any other.

[shreddr1]

Allow me to share some perspectives from a different frontline.

I'm a physician and co-founder of an IT company. I've practiced as a neurosurgeon for almost 15 years and earned an MBA from a prestigious school. I am fortunate to be able to indulge my creative fancies building a kick ass company and caring for patients. In short, I'm living the dream I envisioned in my mind years ago - and I still sometimes feel the way you do.

The imposter syndrome is commonplace amongst successful, motivated people. I've found worrying about failing is far more damaging than the actual "failure" itself. During those times you feel the onslaught of self-doubt, please remind yourself of the times in the past you felt exactly the same way (and also be sure to complete the thought process and acknowledge how you got past that feeling.) Something tells me you suffer from the same pattern of plateauing most folks who suffer from "imposter syndrome" do.

You will have things go incredibly well w minimal effort sometimes. Other times, you will make zero progress no matter how hard you try. Rarely you'll hit a sh-tstorm so bad you just want to crawl under a rock and hide (this is what it feels like to lose a patient BTW). You must accept that the only constant here is you and that your only option is to continue to work and develop yourself. I sometimes try to motivate my co-founder and CEO by invoking the Bhagavad- Gita (or watch the Legend of Bagger Vance which is an allegorical play on the same) - do not worry about the good or bad that may come of what you do, just focus on the doing.

You're not flawed or weak and you are certainly not an imposter. You belong where you are. Don't forget to listen to that other voice inside you.

Best

[gotninjaskills]

I have anxiety disorder (it comes with depression too when I'm in the "phase"). I've been dealing with it by meds. And luckily, I have an awesome family & friends support. Those combination really helps. In addition to that, enough sleep is very important.

I'm still a junior developer and yes sometimes it's a hindrance but I'm always staying positive about it. I hope you do too.

Cheers.

[hcarvalhoalves]

Worrying about your competence to do the job more than your peers (who seem qualified to judge) is a good indication you're up to it. [1]

Self-confidence is higher amongst the ignorant, because they do not understand the size of the problem. A well-informed person knows nothing is as simple as it seems, so it's natural to worry. [2]

What will help you relax: be upfront to your team about what you don't know, or where you need help. The best trait a team member can have is self-knowledge.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

[jqm]

I personally believe in not giving a crap. This puts things into perspective and I can focus. I get a lot done this way.

Here is the bottom line... you are going to die. You are going to die, and no one will remember or care after a short time. Then, the earth is going to crash into the sun some short time later. In fact, the entire cosmos is probably going to crunch back together in a blink or two. The human condition is absolutely 100% hopeless. But here you are...here, right now. This is what really matters. So take a deep breath. Don't sweat the little stuff. And in the end it's all little stuff. Little stuff that really isn't important and shouldn't steal your focus.

[bzalasky]

There was another thread about anxiety a while back, and someone mentioned how 'A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy' by William B. Irvine had helped them (http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic/dp/01953...). I'm about half way through it, and have to say it was a great recommendation.

Stoic philosophy aside, sleep (cutting back on caffeine), exercise and spending time with family and friends helps me.

[ambiate]

My solution has been a healthy dose of being outward about my awkwardness/anxiety. In a meeting two days ago, the consultant wanted to shake hands and I had to warn them about the puddle they were going to encounter in that brief handshake. Afterwards, I let them know I would gladly donate my body if they found a way to harvest energy from anxious sweat. A good (albeit sometimes awkward) laugh is still a laugh.

When I feel bad about my performance, I try to look at my past achievements. I used to just do projects and disconnect once they had completed. Now, I have a small archive of pieces of code I can look at where I feel I genuinely improved as a programmer or had an 'aha' moment.

Recall, the intersection of technology and medicine fields is not simple. Both fields are expanding and adapting on a daily basis. The amount of expertise required just to hone a single skill (potentially extinct!) is a lifetime's achievement. Do you really believe you have already peaked and this is it? Believe me, there is so much more to come! Maybe you're not the all-knowing-expert-guru, but aren't you aspiring to reach that point?

Just relax. You'll be fine. Even if they found out, and it turns out you were an impostor, do you really believe you're going to get fired? You're already trained and in the field. You're being an impostor of what you're actually doing on a daily basis? Seems ridiculous.

[lottie_em]

Coming late to this thread but I wanted to add something that has really helped me. I have had general anxiety peppered with OCD for the past 10+ years of my life, about basically everything. It affected my work, my health and my self confidence.

I started seeing a hypnotherapist/NLP therapist, and one of the most useful things he told me was to stop beating myself up about my anxiety. The whole time I was blaming myself for and being hard on myself about how I was feeling, which was only making things worse. Instead, he explained that I was behaving the only way my brain knew how to behave given the tools and experiences I had had.

It sounds a bit like blame passing but it's not - there's no blaming other people. It's just accepting that you're no less 'normal' and you're not a bad, weak person or letting anxiety get to you. The anxious behaviour is a product of your environment and experiences, and somewhere in your life you learnt to react that way (more than likely subconsciously). This helped me a lot as it took away the additional pressure I was putting on myself to 'push through like a normal person', and the additional anxiety it caused.

It's also worth mentioning that sometimes anxiety can be caused by something else medical, e.g. thyroid problems, so it might be worth thinking about that too.

Good luck!

[larrymcp]

At work, we all actually joke openly about this and I think it helps to know that everybody feels that insecurity to some degree or other.

All week long you'll hear self-deprecating remarks like:

"Oops, I suppose that bug exposes me as the mediocre hack that I am, haha"

"...but unfortunately I forgot to uncomment that section, because I am a complete idiot..."

In a way it helps keep your confidence up, because you're modeling the behavior of confident people. (Joking openly about one's own shortcomings)

[B0Z]

I like this. Sounds like you work with a handful of people with managable egos who don't feel threatened by one anothers' skill / competence. I personally would count myself lucky to have this environment as this is the exception to the rule for most workplaces.