slowwriter's comments

I got 19/20. Turned off True Tone and cranked the screen brightness. Half the time I didn’t know if it was just my eyes playing tricks on me, but it was interesting to notice how the colors seemed completely indiscernible for a few seconds and then suddenly one stood out.

As I understand it, Dokploy Cloud [https://docs.dokploy.com/docs/core/cloud] makes the hosting "managed" by removing the need for Dokploy UI to be installed on your own VPS. With the free/open source version you need to host the UI yourself.

I will have to ask them for specifics, but I believe they are on an older iMac (pre 2017) that cannot run Ventura or newer. If they are running Ventura, they may have simply overlooked the dialog completely, but I'm leaning more towards a version of macOS that didn't have the dialog.

Someone else pointed this out, I didn’t know. Although, yes, if they needed to close any prompts that might have been a problem.

Not the Magic Mouse, though, unless you’re very skilled with your fingers.

If I had known that rebooting would re-enable Bluetooth, that would’ve been a good fix in this particular situation. Although I do see how it can be annoying under normal circumstances.

Interesting. Didn’t know, will have to check that.

For sure. I did say ‘if it had happened to me’, though. And I do happen to have SSH enabled on both of my machines.

Interesting! If that’s the case, great! But I believe the couple in question is on an older iMac not upgradeable to the latest version of macOS, so they would still be out of luck.

They do, but instructing them to enable Bluetooth using only the keyboard didn’t seem feasible to me.

Given very careful instruction this might have worked. But I didn’t know this trick myself to begin with. Now I do!

Yeah, and as it happened this was an iMac with a Magic Mouse, so plugging it in was also not an option.

:)

Well, add that to the list of things that didn't prevent or solve the problem, unfortunately.

Also, I was thinking: If I was in that situation I might SSH into it from a different machine. Yeah, good luck with that to the elderly couple.

Haven’t thought about that, but it doesn’t sound wrong. Will have to look into that

Yes, on an OLED panel dark mode saves energy, but not on, say, an LCD panel

Presumably all called Steve.

I see. Don’t know if you’re still checking for replies on this thread. Livin’ up to my name. Thanks for taking the time to explain, though.

I’m going to have to look further into this to get a better understanding, but I suppose the rules for collapsing whitespace in a text node exist somewhere in the HTML specification, but not at the “interpretation” stage as I assumed.

To be clear what I imagined was that at the interpretation stage a text node would be marked to begin at the first non-whitespace character and end at the last non-whitespace character. And then within the text node there might be additional whitespace that would need to be collapsed into a single space.

Since the first type is not rendered at all and the second type is collapsed to a single space I assumed the rules could exist at two different points in the process/pipeline.

So what I gather here is that both types exist at a later stage than “interpretation” (basically what you see when you open Developer Tools and inspect individual nodes).

But I guess the subtlety here is that at whichever stage the whitespace collapsing/removal happens, the rules for it would still have to be defined by the HTML specification somehow.

And another subtlety to counteract that is that HTML is a markup language and not a programming language. One is executed, one is rendered. So any comparison between say Python and HTML needs to take that into account.

So even though there is some whitespace ignoring going on at some point from:

<p>[whitespace]This textnode has extraneous whitespace[whitespace]</p>

To the point where [whitespace] is not rendered in the viewport, the fact that the ignoring does not happen at the “interpretation” stage is important because that’s as far as the comparison between say Python and HTML can go before the two veer off in different directions.

I’m mainly typing this out for my own understanding, but again, will have to look into it myself to validate or correct my current framework of thinking about this. Thanks for an interesting discussion

I don’t understand your distinction between “the browser” and “HTML” in this context. The browser is merely the interpreter of the language, but the HTML specification lays out how the language should be interpreted.

Also, this is an example of whitespace that is ignored:

<p>[whitespace here]I’m a text node[more whitespace here]</p>

I don’t believe that is what you referred to when you said “inside angle brackets around attributes and element names”.

Here the whitespace or sequence of spacelike characters is not collapsed into a single space. It is simply ignored, and the text node (string) begins at the first non-whitespace character.

That is actually what I referred to when I said that you end up adding a lot of extra whitespace when building a website in, say, PHP. Because that is where it typically ends up in the generated output.

Let me be clear about what I meant by whitespace insignificance.

When you put plain text into an element, that is equivalent to a string in typical programming terms. No, whitespace is not entirely insignificant within a text node. But almost. If we leave out <pre> and other special cases here, HTML specifies to ignore any extraneous whitespace and simply collapse it into a single space. So it is “extraneous whitespace insignificant” in a sense. It doesn’t ignore whitespace interely, but no one would expect that in the contex of a string in any language, even a whitespace insignificant one.

In a text node HTML goes out of it’s way to minimize the meaning of whitespace, but it does do the minimum of respecting that words have spaces between them. You can put spaces some places and have it break or change stuff, like in the middle of an attribute name or value, in the middle of an element name, etc. But you would expect that to happen in any whitespace insignificant language. Outside of that and a few special cases, the default behavior is to ignore whitespace (for example whitespace between the beginning or ending tag of an element and the text node it contains), and as such HTML is very much whitespace insignificant in my opinion.

The reason why I commented that this design was absolutely the right call is basically cases like building a website in PHP, where you mix the two languages together. Here you end up adding a lot of whitespace from indenting your code, etc., and it would be a nightmare if HTML didn’t treat whitespace as it does.

To be fair, HTML treating all whitespace as insignificant was absolutely the right call