Ask HN: Is My Career Over?

[hnthrowaway9001]

I was laid off from a defunct startup a month ago and have been unsuccessfully looking for work ever since. I live in a large tech center in the US and have applied to many places in town (small to large, not just startups); I’ve gotten around five in person interviews but none have turned into offers. The interviews I’ve been to mostly amount to whiteboard/brainteaser sessions that I am profusely bad at, or CS test questions (I never finished college). Some were completely “culture fit” type interviews where I thought I did very well. The feedback I’ve gotten is that I’m proficient technically but wouldn’t “fit their culture” or that they’re “moving forward with other candidates”. I like to think I’m a personable individual who just wants to get things done and make a living. I have experience in the industry, and I keep my skills up to date. I’ve worked on different platforms as the need arose. I’ve even led small teams. None of this has gotten me anywhere because I am not a 10x top 1% engineer who loves whiteboard coding sessions and brainteasers and wants to change the world by working 80 hours a week, rather a (slightly above) average one who can get things done in an editor and just wants to earn a living doing what I’m good at.

Everyone likes to say that you aren’t your job. But I am an engineer. Now I can’t find anyone who will give me a chance, even with my history of success. I have often seen the claim that “there aren’t enough software engineers!”, but now that I’m in a position to verify that claim I can tell you it’s false.

I don’t know why I’m posting this here. My former coworkers in the industry are trying to help and have been getting me introductions, but I’m running out of people I know and their connections, and feel the hammer falling on my head.

Does anyone here have any experience like this? Any advice? Anything at all to tell me not to give up?

[meric]

None of this has gotten me anywhere because I am not a 10x top 1% engineer who loves whiteboard coding sessions and brainteasers and wants to change the world by working 80 hours a week, rather a (slightly above) average one who can get things done in an editor and just wants to earn a living doing what I’m good at.

If that's the frame you're taking into the interview, I can see why they don't think you're a culture fit.

Try this frame:

"I'm a proficient programmer, have leadership qualities, who delivers."

Maybe show them a link to your github with some good code as an example, it will help especially since you say you're weak on whiteboards.

"I can be a bit nervous and don't perform well with whiteboards so I would like to send you a link to some of my existing code demonstrating my skills and ability to perform as a programmer."

And the other comments are right - a month is not long ago, and one interview a week is quite solid. Keep steaming ahead.

[hnthrowaway9001]

I don't bluntly say anything like that at interviews, and try very hard not to imply it via subtext. I put a lot of effort into being a confident interviewee, who knows their strengths and weaknesses and is honest about both.

I include links to my GitHub, but I will emphasize it more going forward, and I really like your suggested line ("i can be a bit ...").

Thanks for the reply.

[dudul]

First, five is not that many.

Second, if the only interviews you get are "whiteboard coding", and the only rejection is "not a cultural fit" you may not be interviewing in the right place. Not all places want you to be a 10x engineer who's gonna work 80 hours a week.

I'm surprised you encountered this behavior in larger companies. You said you got introductions from your friends, I assumed you interviewed there. I would try to get more constructive feedback through your friends to really know what's going on.

[hnthrowaway9001]

I agree, five isn't that many. I meant it more like "I've only gotten five, even with all this work."

I don't know where else to apply and interview. I've worked all my connections (I don't have many), and spent a lot of time looking around job postings, mailing lists, and local communities to find places that seem right. I have a breadth of tech I can work with and I know that I am looking for small to medium size teams, so I apply to whatever I find that looks like a good match. Do you know any other way to find the right places to pursue?

I've tried to get feedback but have been unable to get anything useful. I have also tried to ask the people I know at those companies for any inside info, but nothing has come from that either.

[kleer001]

> a month ago

Keep waiting. Hiring cycles can run to 6 months or a year on the bad side. Just keep plugging away.

[Gustomaximus]

This so much. I feel envious you expects a job after a month looking. I often see people looking for work for 3+ months.

Also I'd suggest making work for yourself in the meantime. Freelance or a side projects. Being 'employed' in some form, even if self manufactured, is often more attractive for prospective employers.

[pyb]

Agreed. OP should only start stressing out at 4-5 months.

[OWaz]

Are you a US citizen? Do you think you can pass a background check? If military and government projects don't bother you than try looking on clearancejobs.com. From what I've seen a lot of big defense contractors looking for engineers just need you to be a citizen, get a clearance and have a pulse. Smaller firms will expect you to actually be capable and you will probably do a couple things across the stack and some dev-ops too.

Have you looked at any part-time/contract work? Maybe that could keep you afloat and activey coding long enough to get a fulltime job.

Edit: this quora answer is helpful for those of us without elite algorithms skills https://www.quora.com/I-am-quite-bad-at-algorithms-but-good-...

[alain94040]

Any company will typically interview about 5 candidates for one open position. So statistically, after 5 interviews, it's no surprise that you didn't get an offer yet. But I'd say: after 5 more, I'd be surprised if you still didn't get one offer.

The hiring managers feedback you have been getting ("we just hired someone else") may be true.

[JSeymourATL]

> The feedback I’ve gotten...

Corporate feedback is mostly Bullshit! There's often a weird dating aspect here. Dude, face it the girl just isn't into you. Don't waste energy trying to figure it out, move on!

> I’m running out of people I know and their connections...

This is where Linkedin is actually useful. Jump on the advanced search feature. Zero-in on profiles of senior executives who you can help. Think local CIO's or VP Engineering types, mix & match keywords. Put together a hit-list of 12 individuals (likely suspects) and start reaching out to them. Not as a job-seeking supplicant, but as an engineering peer looking to network and learn more about them and what they are working on.

Simply ask, do you know anyone who could use some software engineering help?

[hnthrowaway9001]

I've never been able to take rejection well, as I have next to no self esteem. I am trying to just push it out of my mind but the nagging thought of "I'm really just terrible" keep coming back.

I have done the LinkedIn method to a degree, but for places that I have already applied to. I also mostly looked for recruiters as I feel rude sending it to big important people at those companies.

[rahelzer]

Well, you have to fix the problems you have.

1. You must become a jedi-knight of white-board programming. For this, go to HackerRank and work absolutely as many problems as you can. But don't program them in an editor, get a whiteboard and use that. Then type in the program when you are ready to get it graded.

2. You need to fill in some knowledge you would have gotten in college. For this, read the first few chapters of "Introduction to Algorithms" by Cormen, Leiserson, Rivest, and Stein.

There's no royal road. Treat this as your full-time job until you get a job, i.e. work on it 8-10 hours a day 5 hours on the weekend.

This is what I did last time I was laid off.....I got nothing for 6 months, then after 6 weeks of the above regime I was able to slam dunk every interview I went to and got an awesome offer. Best of luck.

[throwaway2387]

No other profession would put up with this nonsense. It's amazing how business people have tricked software engineers into demanding unreasonable standards of each other.

[bitshepherd]

This. So much _not_ this. You're suggesting self-flagellation as a solution.

When I was last unemployed, I made connections with people I had no intention of talking to other than for or about a job. I also kept my tech hobbies up, not cramming about algorithms and whiteboarding code. These hobbies led into questions from interviewers, which led into conversations, which eventually led to a job. My full-time job was finding a job, not memorizing algorithms and CS trivia tidbits.

My point is, you don't have to treat the job search like an exam. In my case, I've had to relocate several times when my network in a certain city couldn't come through and I needed gainful employment. In order to succeed in this industry, you need to be flexible like that if it comes down to it.

[c0110]

Hey there. I didn't take Algorithms in college and am also not so good at it. Don't fret -- you'll get it. Grab a couple interview study books, the Algorithms Design Manual, etc. and study. It'll be hard and you might not feel like you're making progress -- it's ok. Keep practicing and don't lose hope. I interviewed at over 15 companies over the span of 3-4 months (I also did mock interviews, but my algs skills were so not good that the practice didn't really help) and was rejected by most of them (like, 12 of them), but finally I received an offer for a position I didn't think I'd get.

Keep your hopes up, look forward to beefing up your theory, and most of all, landing a position. :) Good luck!

[hnthrowaway9001]

I have been running through a few of the language books I've accumulated. I'm terrible at learning things through pedagogy and generally learn during the process of getting something done.

Thanks for the encouragement though. I realize now that one month and 5 in person interviews isn't that much, but it's tough not to think I've exhausted my options.

[percept]

It's a numbers game--keep meeting with people and telling your story, particularly if you're in a large tech center.

You're not old, either!

You mentioned applying to larger companies, and it's probably more common there to skip the whiteboard and brainteasers (and 80-hour weeks).

Good luck--you don't have to be 10XT1P to find another job.

[bshef]

Follow up with your interviewers and ask for some detailed feedback. Keep the conversation cordial and professional. If they're willing, and provide some feedback, you might see some areas where you can tweak your process or shore up some skillsets.

Good luck, and don't give up!

[hnthrowaway9001]

I have tried this a few times, and I've never gotten anything more than the general "culture" or "we went with other great candidates" response. It is incredibly frustrating and unhelpful to ask for any feedback only to be met with "Unfortunately we’re not able to provide specific feedback." How can I improve or refine my skills without any information? I keep things cordial and professional but often the conversation will just end, full stop.

Thanks for the reply and well wishes, though. Trying to keep fighting.

[siquick]

Work on some side projects and use these as your 'proof of knowledge'?

TBH, are you sure you want to work somewhere that uses those awful white-board sessions to pick out future employees?

Plus you listed a variety of reasons why you think you failed - you should immediately work on these.

[hnthrowaway9001]

I do have a small number of mini side projects up on GitHub. I wouldn't mind doing another one, but can't come up with an idea for it. Also, it's tough to concentrate in my current state.

And I agree, I think using those whiteboard sessions is a negative sign for a workplace, but I'm not in a position to be picky at the moment.

I am trying to improve on the things I know I need to work on, namely algorithms. I just don't have a knack for it, and I've never needed to use them this actively in my career so far.

[trcollinson]

First of all, don't give up. A lot of the advise here is good but I will give you my standard advise. I use it myself.

The bad: I have been developing software for more than 20 years professionally (I'm not young, nor cool). I went to school to be a lawyer (a horrible idea, don't do that!) and do not have a computer science degree. I am not a 10x developer. I have a family who I love very much and enjoy spending time with so I do not work 80 hours a week, ever. I stink at whiteboarding and get really nervous when I am up there. I have a muscle disorder and have a very noticeable tremor when my blood pressure goes up (ie, when whiteboarding a stupid problem in front of a group of people who are obviously trying to stump me).

The good: I am constantly employed! I change jobs, get contracts, and do very well for my family. I have had the opportunity to build up and sell technical businesses. I enjoy helping other engineers get jobs! I am not nervous about being laid off or unemployment.

Why?: I have a process for finding work which, well, works. When people say "there aren't enough software engineers!" they are right. This is a really good thing for you! But remember, not every fit is good for you. Finding work is your job right now so do it every day and have a plan. My plan is always this: find 5 new positions to apply to every day. Make minor modifications to my resume to help tailor it to those 5 specific positions, in order to help the hiring manager know they should look at me specifically. Keep an organized copy of all my resumes, notes on when and how I applied, and notes on which companies follow up with me. After I send out my 5 resumes, I call all of the recruits I know from each recruitment company I work with (not working with a recruiter? Why not?! Not working with 5 recruiters? Why not?! Not calling and bugging the hell out of these recruiters daily? Why not?!). Next, I follow up with each hiring manager of a company that has shown interest in me. This is a bit different than bothering recruiters (recruiters get paid a commission for finding you work, hiring managers are a bit different). If I haven't heard from someone in a few days I will follow up to find out "next steps".

Obviously, this leads to interviews. During interviews I always ask for next steps. If it is an initial phone screening I always say "I really enjoyed talking to you. When can we schedule a time for me to come in and meet for the next phase? Would <two days> from now work, or maybe <three days>." Sell yourself. Give options and get them to take one. Keep notes on the results. During in person interviews (and often phone screenings), ask what the process is to get to an offer. They will ask "Do you have any questions for us?" "Yes! I am really excited about <company>. What is the rest of the interview process before we get to an offer?" Take notes on this. Make sure they know you are interested in an offer.

When I first started using this method, I found about a 20% rate of interview on submission. So, if I submitted 5 resumes a day, I would get an interview for 1 of them. After refining my methods and talking points a bit I actually get about a 40% interview rate. Taking notes really helps with this. That's 10 interviews a week. Obviously not all of these will result in offers. But I have about a 20% rate of offers on interviews. So if I put out 25 resumes a week I can expect 2 offers from those companies, on average. Don't let up on the pipeline until you have the offer you want to accept in your hand. Always put out 5 resumes a day and call recruiters.

One last note about the dreaded whiteboarding. Notice how I say above that if I put out 25 resumes I get 40% rate of interview and 20% of that give an offer? Well out of 10 interviews a week I might get about 50% which want whiteboarding. Of course, I get 50% who don't! It's all a numbers game. I ignore the companies I fail at and focus on my successes.

Generally, with this plan, I often get the offer I am going to accept in my hand within about 3 weeks. It is often from the companies I apply for in week 1. But I never let off that gas until the offer is accepted.

If this seems like a lot of work, it is! But the rewards are very high. Never forget that.

[hnthrowaway9001]

Thank you for this thoughtful reply. I really appreciate the advice, and I'll try to emulate it as best I can.

[asimuvPR]

It's ok. Sometimes things take time. If you feel like practicing interviewing email me. I will gladly help you anonymously.

Keep your head up. :)

[hnthrowaway9001]

Thanks for the encouragement and offer. I may email you.

[palidanx]

Have you done any mock interviews with friends to get some feedback on your interviewing skills and techniques?

[hnthrowaway9001]

I haven't. I will ask around to see if any of them have time.

[brogrammer90]

How old are you? You still got a chance if you're under 35.

[hnthrowaway9001]

I am under 35, but I'm older than most of the people I've worked with. I hear mutterings of age discrimination on occasion throughout the community but I don't have any reason to believe that is happening to me.

[rajacombinator]

Come back after 50 interviews.

[m0llusk]

no